Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 767 EE 100% (350) USA

Posted: 11/16/2006 12:15:49 PM EDT [#1] Originally Posted By ArimoDave: I’m not sure if this is quite the place for this or not, but the subject was stimulated by this thread. A thought occurred to me regarding the battle zero, and what it, perhaps, should be.  I have used iron sights from the beginning  and was taught to use a 6 o’clock hold.  The reason for this is so that point blank range can be maximized, and hold-over should not be needed at any reasonable range; don’t hold over—get closer.  Also, I was taught that the battle zero was based on the belt buckle hold, and the point blank range was such that the bullet path did not go over shoulder height.  This looks very much like what that half silhouette challenge target is trying to do. Scaling the silhouette, I get a height from the bottom of the to the top of the 16" diameter circle as being 24 inches. (Is this the correct height?)  If the maximum ordinate (the highest point in the trajectory) were set to this dimension, there would be two ranges at which the theoretical trajectory would pass through the center of the circle, and two points at which it would pass through the bottom of the circle.  One of each would be nearer to the shooting line than the maximum ordinate, and the other one further.  (See image below.) I don’t know a technical term for these points, but for clarity, I’ll call them Center-Hit Range, and Battle Range.  These each have both a short and long range. For lack of a better term, I define the Effective Battle Zone as the distance between the Short Battle Range (SBR in the image), and the Long Battle Range.  My guess is that if a target (enemy soldier, etc) were closer than the SBR, then one would naturally hold a bit higher on the chest, than belt buckle height. When the range is far enough and one has time, then the range can be set on the sight, where the rifle should then be sighed in so that the trajectory winds up just above the front sight post. Alas, I do not have a ballistic program that works on my system.  The one I downloaded once locks-up when I go to crunch numbers.  Since I have a very slow dial-up connection (typically 5.6 kb/s), downloading such programs takes an inordinate amount of time. So, if someone has one that can calculate maximum ordinates, and ranges at which the trajectory hits given points above the horizontal plane, I would appreciate the following questions answered.  I think it will prove interesting. i121.photobucket.com/albums/o226/ArimoDave/BattleZero1.jpg First, using typical velocities for AR-15s (20", 16", 14"), and using typical battle rounds (i.e. ballistic coeficients) with expected velocities, what are the ranges in the image below when the maximum ordinate is set to 24" (or corrected number)? Second, what is the Reduce Target Range (RTR)?  That is, what range can one have a scaled target that has the trajectory pass through the center of the circle? Third, what sight setting (range on say an A2 sight) that gives that battle range?  That is, what is the range at which the trajectory passes just above the front sight post? Of course, each load and rifle will vary, but what I am after is a sighting-in method can be adopted for a given set of rifles and ammo (e.g., 20" A-2, with 5.56 NATO 55 gr. FMJ, etc.) that maximizes the effective range without changing sight settings.   And, I am questioning whether the 25 yd (or the 50 yd) reduced target really achieves this or not.  Is there a better reduced target range, and if so what is it for a given configuration? Dave. ArimoDave, Nice diagram!  To give you an idea of what you would be working with using your theory for a battlesight zero, here is a graph of the trajectory needed to obtain your 24” maximum ordinate. M855 fired from a 20” barreled M16-A2 has a muzzle velocity of approximately 3100 fps.  Using that ammunition/barrel combination your battlesight zero would have to be set at about 540 yards to obtain your 24” maximum ordinate. Here is just one practical example of the difficulties you would encounter using this setting for a battlesight zero. If you were engaging any enemy soldier who was firing at you from a fox hole or prone position from 150 yards away, your return fire would impact 16” above the point you were aiming at!

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 768 EE 100% (350) USA

Posted: 11/16/2006 4:44:12 PM EDT [#2] Originally Posted By NotMrWizard: Molon, Thanks for the great thread!  I tried the 25-meter sillhouette, now I think I'll give the reduced-for-25-yard target a try.  Out of curiosity, does anyone know what a "passing" score is for the reduced target?  I'm trying to get a feel for how well (or bad!) I am shooting compared to any standards. Thanks! According to the linked article provided by ColonelKlink and the information that I have seen, the old (and now new again) Marine Corps Table 1 course of fire is based on a total of 250 points.  190 points (76%) are required for a Marine to qualify.  The classification is as follows: 190 points . . . Marksman 210 points . . . Sharpshooter 220 points . . . Expert Obviously some will consider certain strings of fire more difficult than others, but on average 76% of the available points per target would be needed to qualify. While I fired 10-shot strings from the off-hand position when using the 200 yard slow fire target reduced for 25 yards, I have seen information stating that the course of fire for the 200 yard slow fire target is actually supposed to be:  5 rounds sitting slow fire, 5 rounds kneeling slow fire and 5 rounds standing slow fire all to be completed in 20 minutes.  Maybe one of our Marines who have recently qualified can chime in to clarify this point. To be continued. . .

GunnyG Team Member Joined Jun 2001 Posts 2074 EE 100% (143) NY, USA

Posted: 11/16/2006 5:12:29 PM EDT [Last Edit: GunnyG] [#3] Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By NotMrWizard: Molon, Thanks for the great thread!  I tried the 25-meter sillhouette, now I think I'll give the reduced-for-25-yard target a try.  Out of curiosity, does anyone know what a "passing" score is for the reduced target?  I'm trying to get a feel for how well (or bad!) I am shooting compared to any standards. Thanks! According to the linked article provided by ColonelKlink and the information that I have seen, the old (and now new again) Marine Corps Table 1 course of fire is based on a total of 250 points.  190 points (76%) are required for a Marine to qualify.  The classification is as follows: 190 points . . . Marksman 210 points . . . Sharpshooter 220 points . . . Expert Obviously some will consider certain strings of fire more difficult than others, but on average 76% of the available points per target would be needed to qualify. While I fired 10-shot strings from the off-hand position when using the 200 yard slow fire target reduced for 25 yards, I have seen information stating that the course of fire for the 200 yard slow fire target is actually supposed to be:  5 rounds sitting slow fire, 5 rounds kneeling slow fire and 5 rounds standing slow fire all to be completed in 20 minutes.  Maybe one of our Marines who have recently qualified can chime in to clarify this point. To be continued. . . A quick cut & paste from the draft copy of MCO 3574.2K I have on my desk top: Classification Scores: Expert 250-220 Sharpshooter 219-210 Marksman 209-190             Day 3 (BLOCK 3) Evaluation Stage One Time(min) 20 minutes Distance(yards) / Target / Rounds / Position / Sling 200 / "A" / 5 / Sitting / Loop 200 / "A" / 5 / Kneeling / Loop 200 / "A" / 5 / Standing / Parade Stage Two 1 minute Distance(yards) / Target / Rounds / Position / Sling 200 / "D" / 5X5 / Standing to Sitting / Loop Stage Three 5 minutes Distance(yards) / Target / Rounds / Position / Sling 300 / "A" / 5 /Sitting / Loop Stage Four 1 minute Distance(yards) / Target / Rounds / Position / Sling 300 / "D" / 5X5 / Standing to Prone / Loop Stage Five 10 minutes Distance(yards) / Target / Rounds / Position / Sling 500 / "B-MOD" / 10 / Prone /Loop

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt, San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903

WyattT Joined Feb 2006 Posts 24 EE 0% (0) TX, USA	Posted: 11/16/2006 6:27:11 PM EDT [#4] thanks for all the targets and info, i now have something to do ither than plink. thanks alot for your work.

JER Joined Sep 2006 Posts 672 EE 0% (0) OH, USA	Posted: 11/16/2006 7:35:41 PM EDT [Last Edit: Lancelot] [#5] < - Deleted by moderator. - L >

JER Joined Sep 2006 Posts 673 EE 0% (0) OH, USA	Posted: 11/16/2006 7:36:22 PM EDT [Last Edit: Lancelot] [#6] < - Deleted by moderator. - L >

ArimoDave Joined Jul 2006 Posts 656 EE 0% (0) ID, USA

Posted: 11/16/2006 8:20:48 PM EDT [Last Edit: ArimoDave] [#7] Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By ArimoDave: I’m not sure if this is quite the place for this or not, but the subject was stimulated by this thread. A thought occurred to me regarding the battle zero, and what it, perhaps, should be. *Snip* Is there a better reduced target range, and if so what is it for a given configuration? Dave. ArimoDave, Nice diagram!  To give you an idea of what you would be working with using your theory for a battlesight zero, here is a graph of the trajectory needed to obtain your 24” maximum ordinate. img168.imageshack.us/img168/959/maxordinate01ia9.jpg M855 fired from a 20” barreled M16-A2 has a muzzle velocity of approximately 3100 fps.  Using that ammunition/barrel combination your battlesight zero would have to be set at about 540 yards to obtain your 24” maximum ordinate. Here is just one practical example of the difficulties you would encounter using this setting for a battlesight zero. If you were engaging any enemy soldier who was firing at you from a fox hole or prone position from 150 yards away, your return fire would impact 16” above the point you were aiming at! Thanks.  This is exactly the info I was looking for. However, I found a downloadable program that actually works---I found it in one of Molon's other threads.  Your results are consistent with what I found and suspected. One of the other interesting things that I discovered is if one sights in so that the trajectory hits just above the sight post at 25 yds (25 meters actually may be slightly better) the point-blank range on the 18 inch diameter circle (+/- 8.xx inches) is maximized.  This also translates to a center hit at a bit over 300 yds.  Essentially, one click above the 300 yd. zero sighted in at 25 meters, and at 330 yds gives the same setting.   It would seem, then, that using the 25 yd zero is actually a great way to sight-in an AR-15 when one has only a short range to work with.  A slight increase in point-blank range can be obtained if the 3/8 setting is increased to +1 click and 25 meters is used instead to zero. Now, with the belt-buckle hold method, what one does when engaging an entrenched enemy, is shoot low.  If you see dust, dirt fly shoot a little higher on the next shot.  The actual bullet path that strikes the enemy is not going to change regardless of sight-in method. (This last statement is to head-off the objection that if you aim low you might hit the dirt just in front of you.) Dave. Corrected one spelling error (not that there may be others)

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 769 EE 100% (350) USA

Posted: 11/16/2006 8:54:43 PM EDT [#8] Originally Posted By GunnyG: A quick cut & paste from the draft copy of MCO 3574.2K I have on my desk top: Classification Scores: Expert 250-220 Sharpshooter 219-210 Marksman 209-190             Day 3 (BLOCK 3) Evaluation Stage One Time(min) 20 minutes Distance(yards) / Target / Rounds / Position / Sling 200 / "A" / 5 / Sitting / Loop 200 / "A" / 5 / Kneeling / Loop 200 / "A" / 5 / Standing / Parade Stage Two 1 minute Distance(yards) / Target / Rounds / Position / Sling 200 / "D" / 5X5 / Standing to Sitting / Loop Stage Three 5 minutes Distance(yards) / Target / Rounds / Position / Sling 300 / "A" / 5 /Sitting / Loop Stage Four 1 minute Distance(yards) / Target / Rounds / Position / Sling 300 / "D" / 5X5 / Standing to Prone / Loop Stage Five 10 minutes Distance(yards) / Target / Rounds / Position / Sling 500 / "B-MOD" / 10 / Prone /Loop Excellent!

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 770 EE 100% (350) USA	Posted: 11/16/2006 8:55:21 PM EDT [#9] Originally Posted By WyattT: thanks for all the targets and info, i now have something to do ither than plink. thanks alot for your work. Your welcome!

Originally Posted By DepletedUranium:
out of shear curiosity has anyone gotten or known someone that has gotten a complete perfect score on the marine rifle quals, and how do they score the tests?

Apparently Corporal William Stellwagen has!

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 771 EE 100% (350) USA	Posted: 11/16/2006 8:58:26 PM EDT [Last Edit: Molon] [#10]

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 774 EE 100% (350) USA

Posted: 11/17/2006 2:31:02 PM EDT [Last Edit: Molon] [#11] Originally Posted By ArimoDave: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By ArimoDave: I’m not sure if this is quite the place for this or not, but the subject was stimulated by this thread. A thought occurred to me regarding the battle zero, and what it, perhaps, should be. *Snip* Is there a better reduced target range, and if so what is it for a given configuration? Dave. ArimoDave, Nice diagram!  To give you an idea of what you would be working with using your theory for a battlesight zero, here is a graph of the trajectory needed to obtain your 24” maximum ordinate. img168.imageshack.us/img168/959/maxordinate01ia9.jpg M855 fired from a 20” barreled M16-A2 has a muzzle velocity of approximately 3100 fps.  Using that ammunition/barrel combination your battlesight zero would have to be set at about 540 yards to obtain your 24” maximum ordinate. Here is just one practical example of the difficulties you would encounter using this setting for a battlesight zero. If you were engaging any enemy soldier who was firing at you from a fox hole or prone position from 150 yards away, your return fire would impact 16” above the point you were aiming at! Thanks.  This is exactly the info I was looking for. However, I found a downloadable program that actually works---I found it in one of Molon's other threads.  Your results are consistent with what I found and suspected. One of the other interesting things that I discovered is if one sights in so that the trajectory hits just above the sight post at 25 yds (25 meters actually may be slightly better) the point-blank range on the 18 inch diameter circle (+/- 8.xx inches) is maximized.  This also translates to a center hit at a bit over 300 yds.  Essentially, one click above the 300 yd. zero sighted in at 25 meters, and at 330 yds gives the same setting.   It would seem, then, that using the 25 yd zero is actually a great way to sight-in an AR-15 when one has only a short range to work with.  A slight increase in point-blank range can be obtained if the 3/8 setting is increased to +1 click and 25 meters is used instead to zero. Now, with the belt-buckle hold method, what one does when engaging an entrenched enemy, is shoot low.  If you see dust, dirt fly shoot a little higher on the next shot.  The actual bullet path that strikes the enemy is not going to change regardless of sight-in method. (This last statement is to head-off the objection that if you aim low you might hit the dirt just in front of you.) Dave. Corrected one spelling error (not that there may be others) Hi Dave, Not tryin' to bust your chops, but how low exactly does one aim when shooting at an entrenched enemy   Most of their body is below ground level and can't be seen.  While you're busy walking-in your shots, by watching the "dust, dirt fly," the enemy is sending lead your way.  If the enemy is using an Improved Battlesight Zero, all he needs is one shot to put a "bullet in the brain pan, squish!"    Just some food for thought. Best wishes, Molon

Originally Posted By Molon:

Originally Posted By NotMrWizard:
Molon,

Thanks for the great thread!  I tried the 25-meter sillhouette, now I think I'll give the reduced-for-25-yard target a try.  Out of curiosity, does anyone know what a "passing" score is for the reduced target?  I'm trying to get a feel for how well (or bad!) I am shooting compared to any standards.

Thanks!


According to the linked article provided by ColonelKlink and the information that I have seen, the old (and now new again) Marine Corps Table 1 course of fire is based on a total of 250 points.  190 points (76%) are required for a Marine to qualify.  The classification is as follows:

190 points . . . Marksman
210 points . . . Sharpshooter
220 points . . . Expert

Obviously some will consider certain strings of fire more difficult than others, but on average 76% of the available points per target would be needed to qualify.

While I fired 10-shot strings from the off-hand position when using the 200 yard slow fire target reduced for 25 yards, I have seen information stating that the course of fire for the 200 yard slow fire target is actually supposed to be:  5 rounds sitting slow fire, 5 rounds kneeling slow fire and 5 rounds standing slow fire all to be completed in 20 minutes.  Maybe one of our Marines who have recently qualified can chime in to clarify this point.


To be continued. . .




continued from above. . .

As infsqdldr pointed out in his post, you could also apply NRA High Power scoring to your groups fired on the Marine Corps 200 yard slow fire target to give yourself a comparative rating.  The NRA High Power 200 yard slow fire target (SR target) has a slightly larger aiming black than the Marine Corps 200 yard target; a 13” aiming black for the NRA target versus a 12” aiming black for the Marine Corps target.

As infsqdldr also pointed out, the X-ring, 10-ring, and 9 ring of the NRA target reduced for 25 yards are all very close together and can make scoring a bit difficult.  Here is a pic of one of the Marine Corps targets reduced for 25 yards with the reduced NRA High Power target scoring rings (in blue) overlayed on it.   The off-hand 10-shot string would have an NRA score of 95 out of a possible 100.
I frequently use a reduced for 50 yards version of the NRA High Power 200 yard slow fire target.  The rings are obviously twice as far apart as the target reduced for 25 yards and make scoring much easier.  I’ll be posting down-loadable versions of both the 50 yard reduced and 25 yard reduced NRA 200 yard slow fire target soon.

Here’s a pic of the full sized NRA High Power 200 yard slow fire target.

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 776 EE 100% (350) USA	Posted: 11/17/2006 7:04:47 PM EDT [Last Edit: Molon] [#12]

HK_Shooter_03 Firm Believer in Ballistic Masturbation Joined Mar 2003 Posts 6928 EE 93% (14) GA, USA	Posted: 11/17/2006 7:11:14 PM EDT [#13]
	The light and lanyard were for targets that have difficultly learning. The baton was for the targets that learn the hard way. The Glock was for targets that didn't understand the two previous lessons. -VSP

GunnyG Team Member Joined Jun 2001 Posts 2078 EE 100% (143) NY, USA

Posted: 11/17/2006 7:20:06 PM EDT [#14] Originally Posted By Molon: As infsqdldr also pointed out, the X-ring, 10-ring, and 9 ring of the NRA target reduced for 25 yards are all very close together and can make scoring a bit difficult.  ..... Particularly when the projectile impacting the target would subtend to 2+ inches diameter at 200 yds!! Damn near every shot must break the line around the x ring!! Would I need to register each round with the ATF as a 1/10th scale destructive device?

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt, San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903

53vortec What is the meaning of this? OIF II-V Joined Nov 2004 Posts 3273 EE 100% (10) TX, USA	Posted: 11/17/2006 8:14:20 PM EDT [#15] Great thread! Hopefully once I get back to shooting again I can post my results - I can count the number of times I've been to the range in the last three years on one hand, and my shooting right now really reflects  that.
	Order some golf shoes... otherwise we'll never get out of this place alive .308- because people have a strange tendency to get behind things when you start shooting at them.

Wasabi Joined Feb 2006 Posts 63 EE 100% (1) UT, USA

Posted: 11/17/2006 8:59:33 PM EDT [#16] Originally Posted By 0612Devil: Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: Originally Posted By 0612Devil: Originally Posted By Molon: Just a reminder. When printing the down-loaded targets from Adobe Reader, be sure the "page scaling" option in the print window is set to "none." In the fleet, hits outside the black are worth 0.  Only MCRD uses the above mentioned scoring system.  Just FYI...  Nice work. Wierd, I thought they went back to the old bootcamp style system. Unless they changed it again, the corps went back to the 250 pt "bootcamp system" in 2005.  My unit  just qualified on the 250 pt partial point system in september. www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/302619F6BAB498E48525706F00619B42?opendocument My buddy's tank company just fucked up and accidently shot on the 65 point system, apparently not everyone has gotten the memo, cuz he almost didn't qualify expert, but still retained his expert because they fucked up and used the wrong scoring system and also scored him on the yard system, when it was a meters range. So he actually ended up still qualifying expert. Really?  No shit...  I haven't qual'd since '04 when I picked up 3rd Award.  That would be a welcome change as scoring is a bit more lenient.  Find a way to make EMP headshots a bit easier and life would be great...  hehe I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out yet that the impact of the round is the same at 36 yards and 300 yards, not at 25 and 300 yards. If we don't do it from the 300 yd line we do it from 36 yards. I believe that is how we do our BZO. Maybe I'm mistaken and getting my numbers mixed up somehow, but I believe that is what it is. Also, the Marine Corps has returned to the old style (MCRD) of rifle qual scores. It is based  on a 250 point system. 190 is marksmam, 210 is Sharpshooter, and 220 is Expert. The course consists of 5 seperate parts. The type of sling used is the Hasty Sling. 200 yard line-Slow Fire-20 minutes 5 shots sitting 5 shots kneeling 5 shots standing 200 yard line-Rapid Fire-60 seconds Two magazines w/5 rds 10 shots standing to kneeling 300 yard line-slow fire-5 minutes 5 shots kneeling 300 yard line-Rapid fire-60 seconds 2 magazines w/5 rds 10 shots standing to prone 500 yard line-Slow Fire-10 minutes 10 shots prone It is also now required that Marines qualify on a field fire course (you probably did it at SOI). This course is done from 50 yards, I believe. My company just did it, and I don't even remember what distance it was at. It consists of engaging multiple targets. Firing controlled pairs, hammered pairs, and reassessment drills (hammered pair then one to the head). All Marines must qualify on this course. If a Marine does not qualify on this course he fails his rifle qual. If a Marine qualified as an expert on the KD course, he would qualify as a Marksmen if he failed the field fire. I believe that is how the system is set up, but if I'm wrong I'm sure someone here will correct me.

GunnyG Team Member Joined Jun 2001 Posts 2080 EE 100% (143) NY, USA

Posted: 11/17/2006 9:56:13 PM EDT [Last Edit: GunnyG] [#17] Originally Posted By Wasabi: .... I believe that is how the system is set up, but if I'm wrong I'm sure someone here will correct me. With the exception of your shooting the 200 rapid from the kneeling, vice sitting, and using the hasty sling on the KD course (that went away last year with the supercession of the "J" edition of the order), you're spot on!! ETA: Here's the next to latest revision of the draft www.tecom.usmc.mil/wtbn/mpms/web_doc/Orders/MCO%203574.2K.zip The only change from that, to what I posted near the top of this page, is that the parade sling will soon be mandated in the off hand, vice being at the shooter's option. Actually, I appreciate that these are being scaled to either 25 or 50 yds. My club range 's 36 yd line would the soggy gully between the 25 and 50 yd mini-berms, both of which are where the upright pipes for plugging in the target stands are.

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt, San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903

LAWDAWG8654 Joined Aug 2005 Posts 102 EE 100% (3) AK, USA

Posted: 11/17/2006 10:18:53 PM EDT [#18] This is a great idea for just screwing around and basic marksmanship practice. But it is not a good indicator of how someone would score on an actual range. Marines routinely shot one hole groups at the BZO (36m reduced size target) range. A small number actually shot expert on the range. Lets not forget that wind, weather conditions, proper elevation adjustments and competetive pressure play a huge role in marksmanship at the 300 and 500 Meter (Yard) ranges. Those are factors that you cannot duplicate on reduced size/range targets. I just don't want someone getting the wrong idea and thinking that since they shot a perfect score on a reduced target that it would translate into a perfect 500m score. Just not happening.

GunnyG Team Member Joined Jun 2001 Posts 2081 EE 100% (143) NY, USA	Posted: 11/17/2006 10:26:31 PM EDT [#19] Yeah!!  What he said!!
	"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt, San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903

FNBrowning Team Member Joined Apr 2001 Posts 847 EE 100% (6) MO, USA

Posted: 11/17/2006 10:58:55 PM EDT [Last Edit: FNBrowning] [#20] QUESTION: First, I respect that some people are doing some good shooting to hit the X-ring of these small targets at 25 yards. But does it prove as much as you think it does? By this I mean, these shoots at 25 yards are using a a scaled down target to simulate 300 yards, right?  Well, there's a lot that can happen 'tween the muzzle and 300yds that won't be effecting your accuracy yet at 25 yards. For instance, WIND! Calculating drift over the course is part of the marksmanship challenge, correct?!!  Little inconsistencies in the barrel and ammunition will magnify over the longer range too. I've read here on ARFCOM for years about rifles that will shoot MOA at 100yds but are too worn to hold at longer ranges. Again, not to take away from some tight 25yd shooting. Just my thoughts here.

"I'm your biggest fan, Ms. Blake! . . Well, the most heavily armed anyway."

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 777 EE 100% (350) USA

Posted: 11/17/2006 11:33:59 PM EDT [Last Edit: Molon] [#21] Originally Posted By Molon: I fired the simulated 500 yard qualification using my AR-15 A2 upper receiver/M16-A2 barrel combination using a web sling with elbows resting on a bench at 50 yards.  As mentioned earlier, the ammunition used was IMI M855.  I used less than half of the allotted 10 minutes to fire the 10 shots as reading the wind at 50 yards is practically a non-issue whereas it would be a critical matter at 500 yards.   The greatest difficulty I experienced with this course of fire was trying to visualize the target when focusing on the front sight.  The rings on the target are not visible to the naked eye from 50 yards and the silhouette itself appears as only about half the width of the front sight post.

GunnyG Team Member Joined Jun 2001 Posts 2082 EE 100% (143) NY, USA

Posted: 11/18/2006 12:19:31 AM EDT [#22] Originally Posted By Molon: The greatest difficulty I experienced with this course of fire was trying to visualize the target when focusing on the front sight.  The rings on the target are not visible to the naked eye from 50 yards and the silhouette itself appears as only about half the width of the front sight post. That reminds me of a few years ago.... I was coaching a pretty marginal shooter on how to shoot that stage. She was frustrated by her shots landing immediately outside the black to the 3 or 9 o'clock positions of the silhouette.  I took two stripper clips and laid them side by side on top of the 500 yd target plotting page of her data book, to demonstrate the sight picture I wanted her to see.     With breathing and a good natural point of aim, she should see the front sight moving straight up and down the silhouette. I instructed her to line up the right side of her front sight post and the right side of the silhouette, and we adjusted her windage a bit in order to still place her shots along the center line of the target. I was happy with her elevation and hold on the target. All this gave her a much more precise line to follow through her breathing cycles.   She finished her qualification relay with 10 out of 10 in the black, at the 500.

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt, San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 778 EE 100% (350) USA

Posted: 11/18/2006 12:39:30 AM EDT [Last Edit: Molon] [#23] Originally Posted By GunnyG: Originally Posted By Molon: The greatest difficulty I experienced with this course of fire was trying to visualize the target when focusing on the front sight.  The rings on the target are not visible to the naked eye from 50 yards and the silhouette itself appears as only about half the width of the front sight post. That reminds me of a few years ago.... I was coaching a pretty marginal shooter on how to shoot that stage. She was frustrated by her shots landing immediately outside the black to the 3 or 9 o'clock positions of the silhouette.  I took two stripper clips and laid them side by side on top of the 500 yd target plotting page of her data book, to demonstrate the sight picture I wanted her to see.     With breathing and a good natural point of aim, she should see the front sight moving straight up and down the silhouette. I instructed her to line up the right side of her front sight post and the right side of the silhouette, and we adjusted her windage a bit in order to still place her shots along the center line of the target. I was happy with her elevation and hold on the target. All this gave her a much more precise line to follow through her breathing cycles.   She finished her qualification relay with 10 out of 10 in the black, at the 500.     Some might call that cheating.  I'd say you helped her to adapt, improvise and overcome.  Great tip, I'm going to give it a try next time out.

sgthoskins Distinguished Rifleman, President's 100 Joined Jul 2004 Posts 2797 EE 0% (0) MA, USA

Posted: 11/18/2006 12:40:38 AM EDT [#24] Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By DepletedUranium: out of shear curiosity has anyone gotten or known someone that has gotten a complete perfect score on the marine rifle quals, and how do they score the tests? Apparently Corporal William Stellwagen has! Just about every Marine team shooter has cleaned the KD Qual course.   We never got the cool plaque though...

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GunnyG Team Member Joined Jun 2001 Posts 2083 EE 100% (143) NY, USA

Posted: 11/18/2006 12:47:52 AM EDT [#25] Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By GunnyG: Originally Posted By Molon: The greatest difficulty I experienced with this course of fire was trying to visualize the target when focusing on the front sight.  The rings on the target are not visible to the naked eye from 50 yards and the silhouette itself appears as only about half the width of the front sight post. That reminds me of a few years ago.... I was coaching a pretty marginal shooter on how to shoot that stage. She was frustrated by her shots landing immediately outside the black to the 3 or 9 o'clock positions of the silhouette.  I took two stripper clips and laid them side by side on top of the 500 yd target plotting page of her data book, to demonstrate the sight picture I wanted her to see.     With breathing and a good natural point of aim, she should see the front sight moving straight up and down the silhouette. I instructed her to line up the right side of her front sight post and the right side of the silhouette, and we adjusted her windage a bit in order to still place her shots along the center line of the target. I was happy with her elevation and hold on the target. All this gave her a much more precise line to follow through her breathing cycles.   She finished her qualification relay with 10 out of 10 in the black, at the 500.     Some might call that cheating.  I'd say you helped her to adapt, improvise and overcome.  Great tip, I'm going to give it a try next time out. No worries...that was all done during prequal!! But I do think she had 15-16 rounds on her target during that prequal relay too ... That's probably why I work in "training", and not "evaluation"!

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt, San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903

GunnyG Team Member Joined Jun 2001 Posts 2084 EE 100% (143) NY, USA

Posted: 11/18/2006 12:50:41 AM EDT [Last Edit: GunnyG] [#26] Originally Posted By sgthoskins: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By DepletedUranium: out of shear curiosity has anyone gotten or known someone that has gotten a complete perfect score on the marine rifle quals, and how do they score the tests? Apparently Corporal William Stellwagen has! Just about every Marine team shooter has cleaned the KD Qual course.   We never got the cool plaque though...   I'd gladly give a wall full of plaques for one distinguished badge.....much less the opportunity to earn it.

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt, San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903

sgthoskins Distinguished Rifleman, President's 100 Joined Jul 2004 Posts 2798 EE 0% (0) MA, USA	Posted: 11/18/2006 1:48:57 AM EDT [#27] Originally Posted By GunnyG: I'd gladly give a wall full of plaques for one distinguished badge.....much less the opportunity to earn it. Gunny, What range did you work on?  I worked Edson Range in 95-96.
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GunnyG Team Member Joined Jun 2001 Posts 2086 EE 100% (143) NY, USA	Posted: 11/18/2006 2:00:31 AM EDT [#28] Originally Posted By sgthoskins: Originally Posted By GunnyG: I'd gladly give a wall full of plaques for one distinguished badge.....much less the opportunity to earn it. Gunny, What range did you work on?  I worked Edson Range in 95-96. I've spent the last 14 years in 4th MAW, on I&I type duty. Lately, we've been shooting at Camp Smith, Peekskill NY.
	"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." Theodore Roosevelt, San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903

sgthoskins Distinguished Rifleman, President's 100 Joined Jul 2004 Posts 2799 EE 0% (0) MA, USA	Posted: 11/18/2006 8:06:43 AM EDT [#29] PM Inbound
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JER Joined Sep 2006 Posts 705 EE 0% (0) OH, USA	Posted: 11/18/2006 8:42:47 AM EDT [Last Edit: Lancelot] [#30] < - Deleted by moderator. - L >

sgthoskins Distinguished Rifleman, President's 100 Joined Jul 2004 Posts 2807 EE 0% (0) MA, USA

Posted: 11/18/2006 9:01:04 AM EDT [#31] Originally Posted By JER: Originally Posted By LAWDAWG8654: This is a great idea for just screwing around and basic marksmanship practice. But it is not a good indicator of how someone would score on an actual range. Marines routinely shot one hole groups at the BZO (36m reduced size target) range. A small number actually shot expert on the range. Lets not forget that wind, weather conditions, proper elevation adjustments and competetive pressure play a huge role in marksmanship at the 300 and 500 Meter (Yard) ranges. Those are factors that you cannot duplicate on reduced size/range targets. I just don't want someone getting the wrong idea and thinking that since they shot a perfect score on a reduced target that it would translate into a perfect 500m score. Just not happening. For those who would like to see how they would measure up at a distance, there's always NRA Highpower.  With the possible exception of some of the western plain hinterlands, just about every one in this country is within reasonable driving time of a club that has a full distance (500 or 600 yards) HP range and holds regularly scheduled matches. That will burst a lot of the bubbles...  I've taken fellow Marines who had only shot the qual course and invited them to HP matches.  Humble pie was eaten by them all. Military qual courses and HP shooting are two completely different dogs...

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t-money Member Joined Feb 2005 Posts 431 EE 100% (11) GA, USA

Posted: 11/18/2006 4:39:27 PM EDT [#32] Molon's reduced targets are a great resource even without variables like wind. For a lot of us, 100yds (or even 25yd indoor ranges) is about as long of a range we can get to regularly. So while a 1000yd range might be the best place for this type of marksmanship, regular practice at a shorter distance is more effective than never going to a full size range. Even a 10m air rifle range in the basement will help with the fundamentals.

T-$

JER Joined Sep 2006 Posts 710 EE 0% (0) OH, USA

Posted: 11/18/2006 6:59:21 PM EDT [Last Edit: JER] [#33] Originally Posted By sgthoskins: Military qual courses and HP shooting are two completely different dogs... True that.  But HP is what we have. In any case, I love it when I see the faces of the Fudds at my club who get caught behind the 600 yd line during a match for the first time. They simply cannot believe what they see, when the little mousegun makes that target drop 600 yards away.   Then the dumbasses go to the benchrest range to pound some 100 yard paper with their 300 Win Mag and 25X scopes.......

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 781 EE 100% (350) USA

Posted: 11/18/2006 11:21:59 PM EDT [Last Edit: Molon] [#34] Originally Posted By t-money: Molon's reduced targets are a great resource even without variables like wind. For a lot of us, 100yds (or even 25yd indoor ranges) is about as long of a range we can get to regularly. So while a 1000yd range might be the best place for this type of marksmanship, regular practice at a shorter distance is more effective than never going to a full size range. Even a 10m air rifle range in the basement will help with the fundamentals. That's one of the main reasons I created these scaled down versions of the targets and made them available for down-loading.

Targethunter Home of the Phoenix Flash Hider Joined Aug 2002 Posts 419 EE 100% (13) GA, USA

Posted: 11/19/2006 9:42:50 AM EDT [#35] Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By t-money: Molon's reduced targets are a great resource even without variables like wind. For a lot of us, 100yds (or even 25yd indoor ranges) is about as long of a range we can get to regularly. So while a 1000yd range might be the best place for this type of marksmanship, regular practice at a shorter distance is more effective than never going to a full size range. Even a 10m air rifle range in the basement will help with the fundamentals. That's one of the main reasons I created these scaled down versions of the targets for down-loading. ....and I aplaud you for it.  It is a great idea..... I need to get the second group on the target sometime today...... Thanks, Targethunter Out

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sgthoskins Distinguished Rifleman, President's 100 Joined Jul 2004 Posts 2809 EE 0% (0) MA, USA

Posted: 11/19/2006 5:34:59 PM EDT [#36] Originally Posted By t-money: Molon's reduced targets are a great resource even without variables like wind. For a lot of us, 100yds (or even 25yd indoor ranges) is about as long of a range we can get to regularly. So while a 1000yd range might be the best place for this type of marksmanship, regular practice at a shorter distance is more effective than never going to a full size range. Even a 10m air rifle range in the basement will help with the fundamentals. I agree 100%.

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LAWDAWG8654 Joined Aug 2005 Posts 104 EE 100% (3) AK, USA

Posted: 11/19/2006 9:56:08 PM EDT [#37] I totally agree as well and did not intend to make it sound like it was a bad thing. I just wanted to point out that some people may be wrongly led into thinking that reduced targets would be the end all. I say practice in every way you can. I even have an air pistol that I use on targets in the house. In the summer I get to shoot bumble bees and wasps off of flowers in the front yard with it. Great fun! At my department we are using AirSoft for force on force training. So I also use varied methods of training. The key is, use them all and don't think one will suffice in place of the others. They should compliment each other.

sgthoskins Distinguished Rifleman, President's 100 Joined Jul 2004 Posts 2810 EE 0% (0) MA, USA	Posted: 11/19/2006 10:26:09 PM EDT [#38] Well put Lawdawg
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Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 791 EE 100% (350) USA

Posted: 11/21/2006 12:50:55 PM EDT [Last Edit: Molon] [#39] For the next down-loadable target I present the "Dog" target.  This is the Marine Corps 300 yard rapid fire target reduced for 25 yards.  The course of fire consists of a total of 10 rounds fired in 60 seconds with a magazine change after the first 5 rounds.  A hit in the black is worth 5 point, inside the middle "ring" 4 points and inside the outer ring 3 points. Here is a pic of the target printed on 8.5" X 11" paper. Here is the .pdf file for down-load. Dog target reduced for 25 yards Remember, when printing the down-loaded targets from Adobe Reader, be sure the "page scaling" option in the print window is set to "none." If the weather holds, I'll be giving this target a try tomorrow.

0612Devil Joined May 2004 Posts 2291 EE 100% (4) NY, USA

Posted: 11/21/2006 1:03:57 PM EDT [#40] Originally Posted By Molon: For the next down-loadable target I present the "Dog" target.  This is the Marine Corps 300 yard rapid fire target reduced for 25 yards.  The course of fire consists of a total of 10 rounds fired in 60 seconds with a magazine change after the first 5 rounds.  A hit in the black is worth 5 point, inside the middle "ring" 4 points and inside the outer ring 3 points. Here is a pic of the target printed on 8.5" X 11" paper. www.box.net/public/static/crfgtt7cce.jpg Here is the .pdf file for down-load. Dog target reduced for 25 yards Remember, when printing the down-loaded targets from Adobe Reader, be sure the "page scaling" option in the print window is set to "none." If the weather holds, I'll be giving this target a try tomorrow. Outstanding, do you think you could scale for 50?

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 794 EE 100% (350) USA

Posted: 11/21/2006 2:58:38 PM EDT [#41] Originally Posted By 0612Devil: Originally Posted By Molon: For the next down-loadable target I present the "Dog" target.  This is the Marine Corps 300 yard rapid fire target reduced for 25 yards.  The course of fire consists of a total of 10 rounds fired in 60 seconds with a magazine change after the first 5 rounds.  A hit in the black is worth 5 point, inside the middle "ring" 4 points and inside the outer ring 3 points. Here is a pic of the target printed on 8.5" X 11" paper. www.box.net/public/static/crfgtt7cce.jpg Here is the .pdf file for down-load. Dog target reduced for 25 yards Remember, when printing the down-loaded targets from Adobe Reader, be sure the "page scaling" option in the print window is set to "none." If the weather holds, I'll be giving this target a try tomorrow. Outstanding, do you think you could scale for 50? Absolutely, although the outer "ring" isn't going to fit on letter size paper. Molon

Bender10 Joined Mar 2005 Posts 81 EE 0% (0) VT, USA	Posted: 11/21/2006 3:17:04 PM EDT [#42] Try this.... 25 yards, 8 inch circle. fire 12 rounds kneeling, move to prone, reload. fire 12 rounds, weak hand prone. 50 seconds. That should keep you busy for a while... I'll try to post the actual target later. This is from an actual match.

Bender10 Joined Mar 2005 Posts 82 EE 0% (0) VT, USA	Posted: 11/21/2006 3:19:30 PM EDT [#43] Ooops.. Pistol match fired by Army, Marines, etc at an Interservice type of combat match.

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 795 EE 100% (350) USA

Posted: 11/21/2006 6:38:10 PM EDT [#44] As requested, here is the Marine Corps 300 yard rapid fire target reduced for 50 yards.  Here is a pic of the target printed on 8.5" X 11" paper.  As previously mentioned, there is supposed to be an additional outer "ring", but it will not fit on letter paper when scaled for 50 yards. Here is the link to the .pdf down-loadable file. Dog target reduced for 50 yards Remember, when printing the down-loaded targets from Adobe Reader, be sure the "page scaling" option in the print window is set to "none."

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 818 EE 100% (350) USA

Posted: 11/26/2006 11:12:19 PM EDT [Last Edit: Molon] [#45] I finally had some spare time to give the "Dog" targets a try.  This is the Marine Corps 300 yard rapid fire target reduced for 50 yards used in this run.  I used my Colt A2 upper and the "standard issue web sling" along with hand-loaded 52 grain Sierra MatchKings for this run.  Firing was done from 50 yards with elbows resting on the bench to simulate prone. The string of fire consists of 5 shots, a magazine change and then another 5 shots with a time limit of 60 seconds.  I purposely limited myself to 50 seconds since I didn't have to perform the standing to prone maneuver. For me, the asymmetric shape of the Dog target from top to bottom made holding the exact same elevation point of aim a little more difficult than on other targets.  My two best strings of fire are pictured below.

Molon Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 821 EE 100% (350) USA	Posted: 11/27/2006 2:30:34 PM EDT [#46] I forgot to mention that the 300 yard Dog target reduced for 50 yards should measure about 3.125" from the top of the black to the bottom when printing correctly.

Stickman Rainier Arms Joined Mar 2002 Posts 16438 EE 100% (1) USA	Posted: 11/27/2006 2:36:16 PM EDT [#47] Good looking pictures, and nice shooting as well.
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Jeremy2171 Joined Mar 2004 Posts 100 EE 100% (92) NC, USA	Posted: 11/27/2006 3:19:53 PM EDT [#48] Effective October '06 they no longer do the mag changes in the rapids.  Just one mag of 10 rounds.

sgthoskins Distinguished Rifleman, President's 100 Joined Jul 2004 Posts 2824 EE 0% (0) MA, USA	Posted: 11/27/2006 3:27:23 PM EDT [#49] Originally Posted By Jeremy2171: Effective October '06 they no longer do the mag changes in the rapids.  Just one mag of 10 rounds. Jeremy, Did the MCO state the reasoning for the change?
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wildearp Pie, it's what's for dinner! Joined Jun 2003 Posts 8368 EE 100% (67) AZ, USA

Posted: 11/27/2006 3:52:21 PM EDT [Last Edit: wildearp] [#50] I read the original post and my thoughts:  25M?  Want to move it closer?  I then went directly to page 8 to see what sort of shit storm was brewing. I shot from 200M to 500M this weekend in changing winds.  Wind doesn't have much affect at under 200M.   So, I ask, what are we trying to prove with these reduced targets?  I can throw tighter groups with subsonic .22rf at those short ranges.   Like some of the fellas are trying to subtly allude to, you gotta stretch your legs if you want to test your long range pissing ability.  25M is spitting range......

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