AR Sponsor
Posted: 8/23/2006 11:50:42 AM EDT
|
I recentyl read a thread where a guy bought a new Colt and peopel were saying he was stupid to have paid more money for a Colt. I have to admit I dont really care as I build my rilfes instead of purchasing whole rifles, but I have a nagging question.......... I understand some things about RRA and Bushmaster may not be what some consider mil spec, but what about Colt compared to LMT, CMMG, or Stag? How would Colt lovers compare thier rifles to the before mentioned manufacturers?? This is not intended to spark a flame war but I really want to know what you guys think |
how can it spark a flame war, the only thing I want to know is if people think LMT and CMMG or Stag are on the same level as Colt, I did not say anything about comparing to RRA or bushmaster which would serve my purposes as well as Colt, RRA, bushmaster, LMT, CMMG, or any other maker And one other thing the question was simple do people who consider Colt to be the best consider LMT or CMMG or Stag on par with Colt, all of the discussions I have seen that get ugly involve RRA and bushmaster..... |
|
Some small companies are bottom-feeders, others are ultra-quality 'boutique' vendors that put the best parts, testing and loving care in their guns and meet/exceed Colt quality. Key differentiators between quality vendors and lower-quality ones are things like:
Quality vendors' small parts (esp springs) have accurate reliable tensions/spring rates, unlike bottom feeders' and gun show parts who range widely in this area. Action spring quality is important in proper cycling. Some vendors over-torque their barrels during assembly and start to shear the index pin, and the front sight is canted. While still within milspec (which, I believe, allows 30 clicks of windage adjustment to zero before failing inspection) it just shouldn't happen. I've had to debug many Model1, M&A parts and Oly Arms rifles even after ammo, magazine and lubrication issus were resolved. I continually hear issues about RRA upper/lower ultra-tight fit to point of being out of spec on the upper. I feel Bushmasters (in spite of a couple of things above) are pretty good overall. My Bushy uppers work flawlessly. Specialty-built rifles from quality 'boutique' vendors here like Global Tactical (Denny's Guns), BravoCompanyUSA, MSTN (Wes), and prob a few I am forgetting offer real attention to detail and care that mass production doesn't offer - with personal product support. These guys often will beat Colt at total quality. Colt is good for consistent quality in the key areas over time. LMT is definitely a top-tier vendor as well, doing reasonably large volumes. There's a lot of LMT stuff in very sandy hot places :) I was going to include CMMG in the 'quality boutique vendor' class but it seems they've moved up into larger-volume production and still maintain their quality. Nice guys, and they ship off-list lowers into California (way to go Jeff!) The bottom line is that the quality vendors I've listed all have attention to fine details others gloss over, signifying they're into consistency & uniformity. Bill Wiese San Jose, CA |
Thanks that was a great post and exactly what I was looking for.......... |
|
Something I was reading the other night: Armalite Tech Note Hope this may help you a little more in your search for info. --Boomer  P.S. If you have the ability/resources to look up the mil-specs, I highly recommend that you do. |
|
Just has to look good to win votes around here, example, bushmaster is chrome lined and 4150 steel. RRA, DPMS and a few others is none chrome lined,unless you pay extra,also their made of 4140 steel vs 4150. But yet, alot here says RRA etc is equal to bushmaster,colt and armalite, thats the current trend around here.  I have a bushmaster and colt, but did replaced my bolt & carrier and buffer on my bushmaster to colt. TG  |
i had a Colt for over 20 years... an SP1 CAR bought new in '76. after "lots of rounds fired, it was a loosy goosy, like i'd imagine any 20 year old AR would be that had been used. i bought it for 460 bucks, new, sold it for about 900.... you do the math. NOW, i am not a real big colt AR fan, because i realize you pay a premium for their name, BUT, i have never know tham to make junk. it is not "stupid" to pay more for a Colt if you can afford it. now i have a bushy, an OA, and a FN, they are all , yes i said all, on par with the Colt, but only time will tell if they hold up as good. i really don't call any current AR manufacturer a bottom feeder. some are better than others, but all can be made into a pretty fine weapon without overhauling. there are a lot of deals out there, it's the nature of competition. it's also in a company's best interest to refine a product where it's needed, i see this being done. Colt is good, but you can own 2 good AR's for the price of a Colt.
|
this is crap info, waste of space. |
My first inclination is say that you're full of shit. But I'm in a good mood so I'll withhold that judgement to see if you can disprove anything that Bill typed. When I log on tomorrow and see that you couldn't provide a single piece of factual data to contradict anything in his post, I'll say that you're full of shit. |
[blue]will tune in tomorrow also, i thought that was well written and informative!? 
|
I would say this is spot on. I think Colt is on top of things in the AR world and that like in most market segments gets premium dollars. They are not the only top AR manufacture IMO. Here is my personal ranking. Top tier Colt CMMG LMT 2nd tier (some would say best for the $) Bushmaster RRA CMT Stag Armalite Ameetec Alexander arms DPMS 3rd tier Oly ASA Model 1 sales This is only one mans opinion, value it at about what you paid for it. It was not intended to make anyone upset.  |
And for which bottom-feeder vendor do you work? Or got one of those 'tactical' Oly or M&A parts guns? I stand by my statements above, and think the technical contents need no defense. The subjective comments in my post above were based on the tech facts listed. I probably forgot a few other quality boutique vendors like Ameetec. And one of the 'bottom feeders', J&T Distrib. is known for friendly, kindly service. Bill Wiese San Jose, CA |
+1 Very good info. Barrel is parkerized under front sight/gas block before it's affixed. (Bushmaster, and apparently some others, affix front sight/gas block to bbl and then park-coat the whole assy afterwards. This is what I hate about my BM barrels |
Look out people... there's a  lurking about!That was really out of line. Bill was nice enough to type up that big, well-worded response for the guy and someone shits on him. Its that kind of crap which drives people away from these forums. Conman needs to get a life or post something more definitive than 'that's crap' |
|
Shot peening of the bolt should not be forgotten either. To my knowledge this is only done by Colt and LMT. If there are others, I would like to know. Also, I was under the impression that bolts are only magnafluxed, not proof loaded. Again, please correct if I'm wrong. Otherwise I think Bill's list above covers all the bases. |
|
I would agree with most everything bwiese posted in his first reply except… I have a hard time considering CMMG in the same group as Colt or LMT or BM. To me they are still in the "boutique" category. I say that because from what I’ve read they still make relatively small runs of barrels and other parts and don't do anywhere near the volume as some of the bigger manufacturers. They may do more builds then say Denny or Wes but that doesn't put them in the ABCR group yet IMO. I don't mean that as a knock against them but in fairness, it’s easier to keep your quality high when your volume stays low. Again, IMO I also would not put LMT on the exact same level as Colt. Quality\spec wise they are very close but not 100% equal. I say that partly because they do take some of the same shortcuts that some others do (No park under the FSB, straight pins instead of taper pins, I’m still not convinced that they MP test every one of their bolts nor have I heard claims that they shot peen them) but mostly because you cannot buy a complete LMT AR unless you are Mil\LEO. I know you can buy a complete upper and a complete lower from them and slap them together yourself but the fact that they won’t sell you a complete AR without some special ID still baffles me? Production wise, I consider them somewhere in between the ABCR’s and the Boutique dealers\manufacturers. One other company not mentioned yet is Saber Defence. From what little I’ve seen it looks like they are pretty high quality. Their barrels seem to be equal to Colt but I don’t know about their BCGs? I believe their lowers with collapsible stocks come with the same out of spec receiver ext. and stock bodies that BM and RRA uses which is a shame. |
AR Sponsor