AR Sponsor
Posted: 5/27/2006 2:05:15 PM EDT
| Why did Stoner go with this instead of a conventional thumb assisted device like so many autos use? Remember the early Armalites? They had that "trigger" in the carrying handle. I think the charging handle is over engineered for what it has to accomplish. Your thoughts? Bill T. |
| The AR 15 CH is far more superior to the "trigger" inside the carry handle. For one the "trigger" system would be difficult to get to if you are wearing gloves or just have ibg hands. The AR15 CH is in a position to make it hard to snag on something and is out of the way during normal shooting. The only time anyone really has a problem with the CH is when you have some type of cheek riser on the stock to close to the upper. |
The biggest problem is that it's hard to use while maintaing a pointed in stance like you would want to do during ETA: Changed Tactical to Emergency to avoid further confusion in this discussion. |
+1 i prefer the 'normal' steel arm on the bolt/carrier that previous guns and sporting semis have--way simplier and you can apply more force to manipulate the bolt/carrier when needed.... |
Malfunction clearing I can see sometimes you can't get enough force to clear the problem. But i don't understand during tac reloads, I guess it's my rifle (isnt hard to pull back), but half the time the bolt is locked back anyway and you just slap the bolt release. But then again I only have competition experience and not real life people shooting back at me experience. |
I just have 4 carbine classes for experience and a couple times at rifle/shotgun matches. In every class I've taken I have been trained to use the charging handle for everything but emergency reloads (Bolt locked back on an emty mag) and even that was suggested as a good idea to keep them all the same (No thinking about it, just charge) and make sure youone in the pipe (That extra force from a full charge vs bolt release helps in dirty weapons). |
You have a lot to learn about designing machines. Lets say YOU were designing the AR back in the 50's. Where would you put the charging device [ this is a test  ]rj |
Or better yet, how much crap can you get into the channel for it that will foul it up and hinder it from working properly? |
How many times have you dropped one off a five story building? There is a reason that military bolt guns, for instance, come with a steel triggerguard. They hold up. Same for this carry handle design. |
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Also, originally Stoner & Sullivan did not want the shooter to be able to push on the charging handle and force a round into the chamber, possibly causing a REAL jam. (Jam is an action tied up so that it won't move. A JAM is different from a misfeed, failure to eject, or other malfunction) They wanted the shooter to have to eject a bent, dirty, or out of spec round, and feed a fresh round. Later the Army disagreed, insisted on the addition of the Forward Assist. Plus we would have never had the flat tops if they kept the trigger charger Right you are! |
the problem with that is that is if your giht handed you have to take you trigger hand off the grip, or reach around with you left hand. I think a SCAR style chargin hande would be the best setup. |
I can agree with that. They teach muscle memory, I guess every body learns a little differently. I like both to be honest the side charging of a FAL and the CH of an AR. One big problem I have with the CH is all the stuff that gets thrown at you when you fire an AR with a supressor on it. I have seen a couple of AR uppers that have the side charging handle. Which again makes me love the AR cause you can make it any way you want it. |
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Why would anyone need to use the charging handle for a tac reload? The bolt is already closed on a live round. All you need to do is remove the first mag and insert the second. The main weakness of the AR charging handle is a true double feed can cause a live round to become hund between the charging handle and the bolt carrier. |
I thought that was a design "feature". It's hard to negligenly pull the trigger when you have to use your trigger hand to work the action. Just a thought |
So you do the same thing every time. Every case were you are getting the rifle into "Ready to Rock" condition finish with the charging handle. I've been taught the same thing for pistols (Except at front sight were they advocate using the Slide release for emergency reloads (locked back on empty mag), I refused and just racked the slide) I'm just talking here, I'm not an expert, but I have some training and I know what makes sense to me, and when the balloon goes up, tunnel vision sets in, and my hands turn into flippers, I want a simple, direct way of dealing with things that doesn't require the use of fine motor skills. |
one of 30, or one of 15 - 17 in my Glocks. It's cheap insurance to make sure you don't hear a click. |
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Why would you hear a click?, there is already a live round in the chamber before you begin your tac reload! If you push-pulled the mag and ensured good lockup, you will feed the next round. If not and your mag isn't locked up properly, then you have just dumped your one and only round. I fail to see how that maneuver gains you any advantage whatsoever in a tac reload other than adding an unecessary step and dumping a live round with no benefit. |
I completely agree with what you are saying, it makes complete sense that you are just sticking a full mag into a weapon that already has one in the chamber, and it could very well be that 99/100 times that is exactly what you have. I just don't see a problem with dumping one on the ground just to make sure it is loaded. To follow your story about the mag not being seated and dumping your only bullet on the ground, wouldn't racking the slide or slapping the charging handle expose that malfuntion? Would you rather find that out from behind cover or during a lull in the fight, or find it out one round into engaging a target? |
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On the AR design you already have to have a tunnel in the upper for the gas key to ride. By slightly enlarging this tunnel and allowing the charging handle to bear on the gas key when racking the slide you eliminate several parts that would otherwise be needed to rack the slide. KISS as applied to firearms design. Just like having the hammer spring retain the trigger pin, the rec ext [ aka buffer tube ] retain the buffer detent, the buttstock retain the takedown pin detent, and the grip retaining the selector detent. Many military firearms were/are created by ingenious designers. The 1911 shows the same kind of integrated design. rj |
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Since BillTasked.....I agree with Mudbug. I also belive that the AR CH is an excellent design and has proven that fact on battlefields all over the world. That being said, I think anything might have room for improvement. Take a look at Robinson's XCR with a side mounted charging handle. http://www.robarm.com/xcrtm_gallery.htm Granted, this is a gas operated system, but anytime you don't want to break your cheek weld, or are shooting prone, etc., wouldn't this be nice? I think once we close our minds to innovations or modifications, we limit ourselves and more importantly, our servicemen I might not agree with every new idea, But I definetly encourage people (BillT) to seek improvements on this weapon system. The AR has proven to be a remarkably adaptive weapon over the years and it is for this reason that we have hundredes of companies offering options and aftermarket products which make it that much better for the rest of us. |
Ah, I see now how the discussion of Tactical Reloads came up. I meant Emergency Reloads in this sentance. Everything I've said since then about Tactical reloads is still my opinion, but in the above sentance I meant an emergency reload when the shit is still flying, locked back on an empty mag. |
I would rather push-pull so I never have to worry about it in the first place. |
Best reply yet. Very well thought out! Bill T. |
I've heard that part of the reason the AR is so accurate (in addition to the gas system) is that the bolt carrier doesn't have any shit hanging off it on the sides, which helps keep the rifle centrally aligned while firing, and helps follow-up shooting as well. Don't know how accurate that is, though. I do know I notice a slight left or right pull while shooting other weapons (AK, SKS, FAL, etc.) that have a side charging handle. |
The charging handle on a FAL is non-recriprocating as with the AR. It is NOT attached to the bolt carrier assembly. |
Did you post this simply so you can see your own writing? What difference does it make? Unless you've got a DeLorean Time Machine and can go back and persuade Eugene Stoner to change his mind about the charging handle what difference will your "thought" make? I know this is an open forum to discuss ideas, but how about ideas that someone can possibly do something about? To complain about the charging handle, is like me complaining that God should have made the earth spin in the other direction, because it sure would be nice to see the sun rise in the west. Well it doesn't, and complaining about it ain't change it. Deal with what ya got. If you don't like the charging handle, then find a FAMAS and you'll be happy. Flame on! |
It seems that something can be done about it.  I just don't want a weapon with parts that have limited availability or I would get one. |
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