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Posted: 3/23/2006 10:45:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 11:34:04 AM EDT by HP40]
Does any one know where to get info or chart for leading a running target. During basic and AIT at Ft. Benning in '80 we were among the first to test a range with moving targets. They were little warsaw pack soldiers running on a track. I assume this range is now being used for qualifications as we were being used to determine qualification score requirements. I remember posting the 2nd highest score with 15 out 40 hits with 22 hits being the highest. Most of the guys were in single digits. I really can't remember remember the lead I used at varying distances with the .556 m193 used at the time. I'd like to see a chart or something to give me an idea of target lead.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:52:06 AM EDT
An absolutely RARE good question!!! I've never had moving target training.

Tag for more info.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 11:04:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 11:16:12 AM EDT by Forest]
FM 3-23.9 has such information available. You can download it for free from the [Information] button above - then select Manuals&Downloads.

Section V in Chapter 7 is what you'll be looking for.

Edited to Add: Page 160 of the PDF file is the start of that section.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 11:10:50 AM EDT
I have always wanted to build my own moving target range, just have never got around to doing it. IME, consistently hitting moving targets takes continual practice. The lead distances, while neat info, don't do much for me in the real world when you take into account wind, elevation, speed of target, quartering, etc. You would need a computer brain to calculate all the need info in the short time you have to take a shot. Experience shooting at moving targets is worth far more than the lead chart.

For a poor mans version of moving targets, you can roll old steel wheels down a hill (have a friend or enemy release the wheel from behind a barrier or such) and shoot at the wheel as it rolls out into a flat area, just use a little common sense safety wise, it's fairly realistic. Or go coyote hunting, spook em and try to take them on the run.

Practice, practice, practice. I still need to work on my quartering away, up hill shot.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 11:15:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By numbers:
...For a poor mans version of moving targets, you can roll old steel wheels down a hill (have a friend or enemy release the wheel from behind a barrier or such) and shoot at the wheel as it rolls out into a flat area, ....



That is a great idea. As an alternative if you dont' have any steel wheels, with an old rubber tire you can cut out section of cardboard and put it inside to see if you hit.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 11:23:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By numbers:
...For a poor mans version of moving targets, you can roll old steel wheels down a hill (have a friend or enemy release the wheel from behind a barrier or such) and shoot at the wheel as it rolls out into a flat area, ....



That is a great idea. As an alternative if you dont' have any steel wheels, with an old rubber tire you can cut out section of cardboard and put it inside to see if you hit.



Nice addition Forest, the cardboard and rubber tire would be a safer solution. When we used to do it, the damn tires were always gone or tore up, so we had to use the steel wheel itself. Old smaller wagon wheels with thin sheet metal wired in the center worked the best. It was tiring, but more entertaining than target shooting and valueable practice. Redneck shooting at its best.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 11:31:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 1:55:37 PM EDT by Face_N_The_Crowd]
Simple rules of thumb:

Walk 7" at 100, 14" at 200, 21" at 300 (see a pattern here?)
Jog 2x the above
Run 3x the above - (note at 500 the run data gets pretty far off)

I don't know if you think in terms of MOA or MILs but just remember to also factor in the wind - esp at ranges of 300 yrds or more - note this may mean adding or subtracting to your lead.

Also - moving targets are just like wind - a target or a wind moving perpindicular to you (think 3:00 and 9:00 on a clock face) is a full value lead - do the math at full value. A moving target / wind that is not perpindicular to you (think 2:00 and 8:00 on a clock face) is a 1/2 value lead - the key with 1/2 value is that it is 75% of the full value lead - not 1/2.

Example: Walking target (moving to shooters right); Distance 300 yrds; Wind 10 mph full value wind moving toward the shooters right (so it is moving in the same direction as the mover - right? Means less lead - right?)

Lead = 7 * 3 or 21" or 7 MOA or 1.95 MILs (to the right - ahead of the mover)

Wind = 3 * 10 /15 (this a constant factor for 0 - 500 yrds) = 2 MOA or 6" or .56 MILs (in the opposite direction of the wind)

Final lead for a mover(to shooter's right) at 300 yrds with a right wind at 10 mph: 21" - 6" = 15" or 5 MOA or 1.38 MILs

Clear as mud - right?

Good luck

Edited cuz i kants spell
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 11:41:07 AM EDT
Keep in mind that at ranges less than 100m with a rifle you can just shoot for the leading edge of the target. Generally that puts them in the front half or center mass of the target. The big issue at that range is not the time the bullet takes to go to the target, but the fact that almost all shooters will stop swinging the rifle when they break the shot (w/ carbines and compressed surprise break). I prefer to ambush instead of swing.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 11:57:57 AM EDT
I went through basic at Sand Hill in the winter of 94/95 and the moving target range was not used for qualification. We used the pop targets from 25-300 meters for qualification. The moving target range was simply used to train on moving targets and it was not a Go/No Go situation.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:47:20 PM EDT
Combat raises 2 big points - in close, the shot is almost intuative, the lead isn't much and your mind pretty much already has it dialed in.... just let the shot happen - don't force it.

Second - CJ raises the biggest issue - swing through the shot. There are actually two methods to shooting movers:

Trapping - you determine lead - in the example above the lead with wind adjustment was 15" or 1.38 MILs. Therefore you use your cross hair to come up from behind the mover go past the mover and stop well ahead of it - when the mover gets to 1.38 MILs (I think in terms of MILs so you may need to convert to what you use - effectively it is the aim point that corresponds with 15" at 300 yrds) you press 'play'.

Swinging - To me this is easier b/c it is how most of us think and anyone that has done much SG shooting at clays or game understands it. Determine the lead, find that aimpoint (in this case 1.38 MILs), put the aim point on the mover as it is moving - you are now synchronized with the mover at the mover's speed with the aim point on the mover - let you body feel this 'swing pace', release the shot, continue the same pace of swing well through the release.

Last little FYI - focus on the aimpoint at the moment of release. For me I have this little routine - I see the target, find a specific POI on the target, place my POA on that specific POI, then shift back to POI, shift again to POA - bang ... the shot just happens.

Again, inside of 100 - relax, you and your body all ready kinda have it figured out.

Good luck

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 2:22:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 2:22:53 PM EDT by jvicent]
Just go shoot skeet and be happy!

Depends on whose chasing the guy that's running, doesn't it?


My understanding is that most folks run between 7 and 10 MPH.
From FM 23-10

TIME OF FLIGHT X TARGET SPEED = LEAD.
Time of flight= flight time of the round in seconds.
Target speed = speed the target is moving in fps.
Lead = distance aiming point must be placed ahead of
movement in feet.
Average speed of a man during—
Slow patrol = 1 fps/0.8 mph
Fast patrol = 2 fps/1.3 mph
Slow walk = 4 fps/2.5 mph
Fast walk = 6 fps/3.7 mph

To convert leads in feet to meters:
LEAD IN FEET X 0,3048 = METERS

To convert leads in meters to mils: Lead in meters over range to target X 1000

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 2:49:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By numbers:
...For a poor mans version of moving targets, you can roll old steel wheels down a hill (have a friend or enemy release the wheel from behind a barrier or such) and shoot at the wheel as it rolls out into a flat area, ....



That is a great idea. As an alternative if you dont' have any steel wheels, with an old rubber tire you can cut out section of cardboard and put it inside to see if you hit.



AWESOME FOREST!!
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