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Posted: 10/28/2005 10:53:27 AM EDT
I just took 4 days of tactical rifle and advanced tactical rifle classes from Tactical Response in Tucson. I decided to use my open/trooper class rifle with dual optics for the class to assess the practicality of this configuration for situations other than shooting competitively. Over the course of these 4 days we shot about 3,000 rounds of rifle, 500 pistol, and learned quite a lot.  My rifle has a Luepold MKIV 1.5-5X Scope and an OKO mounted at 10:30 on the rail system. I use the OKO for shots 25 yards and less, and the Luepold for anything farther. I usually kept the magnification on 1.5 unless we were shooting past 75 yards. USPSA targets were used for the purposes of the class to represent humans intent on doing you harm. The instructors placed emphasis on making hits in the A Zone of the head, and in the center A Zone only hits made above the bottom of where the A is stamped on the targeted, counted as hits. I was easily able to do this with my rifle using either optics at the distances we engaged the targets. The only drill I had a difficult time with was shooting the rifle one handed...the weight of the rifle (it has an HBAR barrel) made it difficult to lift with one hand and put a good deal of stress on my wrist. It was easier to shoot the rifle one hand only right handed (I am a lefty) because manipulating the selector that way is easier. Once I got the rifle on target I could complete the drills easily. The CAV Comp does a good job of eliminating muzzle climb. A good deal of the class focussed on Team Tactics in 2, 4, and 8 Man Teams. Drills included Fire and Movement, Counter-Ambush, and transporting a wounded team mate while laying down convering fire. The team tactics portion of the class is what I found the most interesting, worthwhile and fun. Doing these types of drills will definitely break you out of the "square range" mentality. two man team fire and movement:    providing covering fire as two teams advanced forward:     "Aussie Peel" counter-ambush drill  Building clearing  Wounded man drill   The instructors at Tactical Response are very professional and their training is excellent. One of the things I like best about taking training from them is they don't care what equipment you use, or the particular shooting technique you use as long as it gets the results they want. James Yeager, the lead instructor, recently returned from Iraq having put in time as a security contractor. Yeager informed me that rifle configurations like the one I used at the class are not uncommon in Iraq...competition shooting is definitely influencing gear used in the real world. I highly reccomend taking some training from Tactical Response if you have the opportunity. They do travel around the country putting on classes at ranges that can host them. If you host a class, you get to train for free. www.tacticalresponse.com view the full galleries from the classes here: Tactical Rifle Advanced Tactical Rifle I do need to add that Tactical Response places emphasis on Mindset, Tactics, Skill, then Gear in that order for winning the fight...it is however much easier to write about gear than about the other three. You will get a healthy dose of Mindset, Tactics, and Skill building taking a class from Tactical Response. |
Hows that working out for you? I've been playing with it and really like it. To me its like a compact ACOG, with a better reticle and the ability reach out when needed. I assume yours has the SPR reticle? I think its a great all around AR optic, and am a bit surprised by the overall lack of interest. |
It's worked well for me so far. The main thing I needed to do to use it effectively was get the Hahn Precision scope riser/extended rail to mount it at the correct eye relief and height. I do have the SPR reticle, it works well for tagging steel targets of various sizes and shapes out to 300 yards (the farthest I have had the opportunity to shoot it so far). I'll probably use this set up for Ironman 2006, where I'll have the chance to shoot it out to 600 yards. The MK IV is not fast for me to use at less than 25 yards, thus I have the OKO mounted on the side at 10:30. The system as a whole does what I need it to do. |
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I also just spent 4 days with Yager up in my ass in 2 back to back rifle classes and have some observations... 1) If you have a rifle, YOU MUST HAVE A CLEANING KIT WITH A RIDGID ROD! cases can and will become stuck and you bore can become obstructed if you jam your muzzle into the ground, you will need a "Rod" to clear your bore! 2) USE GOOD MAGS! If you are not using USGI (or equivalent) magazines in your gun, you are wrong and begging for problems. 3) If you do not have a sling for your rifle, then YOU ARE WRONG! a sling is to a rifle what a holster is to a pistol. 4) If you use shit ammo in your guns (Wolf or some goofy surplus) expect you rifle to take a shit on you. 5) DO NOT SHOW UP TO A CLASS, MATCH, GUN FIGHT, ETC. WITH A GUN THAT HAS NOT BEEN ZEROED OR YOU DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE RUNS WELL!!!! |
PFFFTTTT!!! I stood right next to you shooting 1200 rounds of Wolf during the first 2 days of class. Remember me? I'm the guy that kept catching your empty brass with my face. The only problem I had was more attributable to running my bolt too dry than the Wolf ammo I was using. *Snicker* OH, and during cleaning that first night, Scott did more to ruin the hotel room wash cloth and sink with chamber/bolt garbage than I did. My New stand on Wolf is that if your rifle won't run it, you need to fix your rifle. I'm at 3900 rounds of it now without a single problem that I can directly blame on Wolf ammo. ETA: I kept meaning to put up a review of the first 2 day class, but I'm lazy. I wish I could have made the other 3 days. ETA2: Thanks for all the pics Russel, I don't think I'll need to get the whole picture dump unless there are some pics you didn't put up in your gallery. ETA3: It was a great class and a blast to take with all the Cavarms/AMEETEC guys. Not only do they have a lot of experience with this shoot and move stuff but they also helped several people out that were short on gear or ammo. It was also great meeting some of the other AZ members that I hadn't met IRL before this. Another lesson learned is Don't bring a Keltec SU-16 to a gunfight, some poor kid drove out from CA with his and suffered a whole lot of problems. To his credit he kept his head up and just kept trying. |
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Details please. 1) What rifle stuff worked, what didn't work? 2) What pistol stuff worked, what didnt' work? 3) What gear/load bearing stuff worked, what didn't work If you carry a handgun, you need to take Yeager's tactical handgun classes. If you own a carbine, you need to take Yeager's tactical carbine courses. If you plan on defending yourself someday, you need to take Yeager's force on force training. Sign up now. |
Well my rifle was incredibly filthy by the end of the first day...lots of carbon and sand. The bolt began to get sluggish after 600 rounds (+ whatever I had through it before the class) and the lube had all cooked off. It would eject a spent casing, but not have enough inertia to strip a round off the magazine. It only required racking the charging handle to fix the problem though. It did this 5 times out of 200 rounds...just enough to be annoying That night I thoroughly cleaned it, and cleaned it every following night. The level of fouling and debris in the action would have made me wonder if it would work at all...the fact it kept working at about 98% with that much dirt had me impressed. I sufferred no further problems after cleaning the first night. The rifle and my optics packages worked as they were supposed to. Colt sub-machine guns break hammer pins every few thousand rounds...9mm blow back systems are much harder on the gun than the gas operated systems of normal ARs A few people had problems with their ARs, broken extractors etc....having a field repair kit is a good idea. In addition to a field repair kit, I carry a complete bolt carrier group just in case.
Two of my glock 17 magazines started having an unusual malfunction that would cause the slide to lock open with one round left in the magazine. The follower is somehow engaging the slide catch even with one round still left...I marked these mags and will either replace the guts or just get new mags. This wasn't a big deal as I simply changed magazines as I normally would anyway. Other than that no problems with my pistol
All my gear worked as it was supposed to. The custom made Super MOUT rig was comfortable and let me get at my mags quickly. The Spec Ops Brand dump pouch is great. you can shove up to 6 mags in it without trouble and they will stay in it even through vigiorous movement. The Safariland holster I mounted inside the Spec Ops Brand Vapor holster chasis worked well too. Regarding Wolf ammo, even if it cycles in your gun make sure the accuracy is still there...typical groups with Wolf I have seen are 5-6MOA. As all the shooting in this class was 100 yards and less, there was no opportunity for this problem to become apparent. Wolf is also usually too low pressured in my experience to reliably cycle a 20" gas system. FWIW I buy one brand of ammunition, Federal, and only use this type of ammunition because I know it cycles my rifle reliably and gives me the level of accuracy I require...gambling isn't worth it. |
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Looks like a great class. James Yeager and the Tactical Response crew are certainly one of the best in the industry. I would love to take one of there classes. The only problem is we have so many great training resources right here in Virginia (10-8 Consulting) or just over the border (NC) at Blackwater. I'm getting spoiled driving under two hours for a class. Blackwater is only thirty-five minutes away and I can still sleep in my bed every night.  |
Sure
My Rifle is kind of a Mutt; Mega Lower, RRA Upper, Ameetec Barrel (?), VLTOR Clubfoot, YHM FF HG, Eotech 511.A65 on a Larue mount. The only thing that I had problems with was the bolt that holds my Eotech to the larue mount started coming loose at the end of day one. I thought it would last but it didn't, at one point it just fell off (oops) The heat seemed to have burned off the blue locktite or caused it to fail.
My G19 worked. I carried in a ComTac Paddle Holster, it also works.
I used a SDS IRACK w/ the Super RACK Harness, SDS Sandler Hydration pouch, 2 ESSTAC adjustable double mag pouches, CQB Solutions double pistol mag pouch, SDS grenade pouch (I carry gloves in it), and an SDS Canteen pouch as a drop pouch. Everything worked fine, I love the IRACK, for the price it can't be beat though I had to modify the harness to attach the hydration pouch (They should fix that), The ESSTAC Mag pouches work great. I didn't like using the canteen pouch as a dump pouch, it sat up too high, I took it off and attached my Maxpedition Roly poly thingy. I also wear the Wilderness carbine and Pistol pouches on my belt for quick grabs, when I have time I feed them from my chest rig. Here's a side shot. You can see the SDS canteen pouch being used as a dump pouch, the Sandler, and the Wilderness Pistol and Carbine mag pouches.  Here you can kinda see the front of the IRACK w/ ESSTAC 5.56 mag pouches and CQB solutions pistol mag pouches(upper left chest)  And another pic with the mag pouches  The IRACK has great adjustment, it can be made to fit very comfortably, but still it snugs to the body so it doesn't slip around and flop. |
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One word on why I use the Wilderness Mag pouch. I figure if I ever really have use my rifle it will be at home and I will have a spare mag stuck in my back pocket, doing my reloads from the Wilderness mag pouch which I wear just over my back pocket keeps my muscle memory tuned to reloading from that area. |
| Thanks for the info. I love post like these. My first carbine/pistol class is hopefully this spring. Man driving to AZ with a couple buddies and the guns would be a hell of a roadtrip. Oh how I hate budgets and jobs.h.gif |
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Great thread... I'm looking at the Tactical Rifle course at the end of Nov. in Hot Springs, AR. Closest for me drive wise (western burbs of Chicago). Would love to see some courses (Tactical Pistol) in our area... May have to work on that.... Know who's teaching the course in Nov. in Arkansas?? --corrected-- registered for it... |
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How many people do you need to get to host a Tactical Pistol or Tactical Rifle Course? I live in the Rio Grande Valley, and know quite a few Officers that could benefit from a class (including myself)? I can call a members only range to try and see if they will allow us to use their range (I am a member) for the Tactical Pistol and Tactical Carbine classes. Thanks, Ken |
Email [email protected] and get your questions answered. |
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Definitely. Wow! You guys actually shoot your guns?  all kidding aside, I would love doing that and will make a plan to do so. |
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awesome, Thanks for the great pictures, I am trying to but together a rig like that, so far I have the CHEST RIG, UNIVERSAL/SKD MOLLE VERSION, CB from Eagle, SAS DUMP MAGAZINE POUCH - KHAKI also from Eagle, Tactical Tailor Modular Hydration Carrier, Safariland 6004 Tactical holster, Tactical Tailor Rigger's belt ,Hatch KP250 Centurion Knee Pads,Tactical Tailor Medic Pouch... I am open to any and all positive suggestions! Running an Ammetec M4 style rifle/w HK mags and a Ameetec provided Glock 17... Thanks |
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I wasn't at this class but have taken a Tactical Response class (Tactical Carbine). Nothing but good things to say about the guys with Tactical Response. They are a professional bunch who are great instructors and learners. I met James Yeager the first day (he wasn't the direct instructor but was there) and he was kind enough to spend some time with me on my pistol skills during our first day lunch break. I took the entry level course and really enjoyed it. Its a much different mindset than shooting off of a bench or even hanging out at the local range plinking. You are learning to fight and there is a whole different mindset to it than just pulling the trigger. I learned so much it is unbelievable and its impossible to really describe it. The team tactics were my favorite as it taught you to fight, communicate, look for other enemies, etc. Gear wise nobody in my class had any super duper rigs. I wore kakhi pants with pockets on the legs and kept extra magazines there. When I was running the mags would jump around and it was awkward but it worked. I had a few mag pouches on my belt which seemed to be enough. I also had a Camelbak which is almost as important as having a rifle with ammo. You will sweat a lot just from the stress so staying hydrated is key. Most of the rifles that had problems during my class were either homebuilts that were untested. One factory Bushmaster had an unstaked gas key that caused obvious problems throughout the class. I ran a Colt 6920 and the only major problems I had were magazine related (as said eariler, use good USGI magazines). I had a couple of those gray English magazines mixed in and they seemed to be problematic to me. When I switched to only using some good Labelles my problems went away. If you use Wolf dump lube on the bolt and a little in the chamber during the instructional/relaod periods of the course. I damn near ran out of XM193 and myself and two other students split a case of Wolf. I ran it during the last portion of the class and during the last drill had a stuck case resulting in a double feed. I had to transition to my pistol. My teammate who was also running Wolf had a failure at almost the same time (COVER!) except his bolt literally shattered with a stuck case in the chamber. We finished the drill with pistols but kicked ourselves for not lubing up our rifles when we should have. During my class the EOTech was the predominant optic and was also what I used. I found it worked really well and made engaging the targets much easier than irons. Take a class. As Fight4yourrights said about the FIRE Institue classes in Pittsburgh, its the best money he ever spent on firearms. I will have to agree. |
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Dang that looks just like what I need and when I get back from the far desert not the one I live in I hope I can take one of these classes. Might have to get more Hi-cap mags only have 2 and 4 10 rounders for my Taurus 24/7 and I think it would be interesting seeing someone w/o a glock or sig or springfield out there. Just my opinion of course. Great pics everyone had fun and seems like a good time of all where do I sign up and do I have time to go to one before Jan. Probally not the wife has me taking leave to see in-laws.  I do get to see my folks this month back home is sweet alabama. Oh well maybe when I get back I can take a class and see if I still have it after going to that staff job.Scott |
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i put together a basic and advenced class in ny, in early october. everyone that attended the class had a great time. learning to fight with these rifles is nothing like plinking or bench rest shooting. while i missed the advanced class, i heard nothing but raves from people that attended the class and a desire to travel to tn. to take a class at their facility. i have several people that would like to be informed of the next class in ny. (2006) a third of the basic class could be filled now if we had a place to have it. once you try a class you will be hooked, the only thing is that bench shooting may become a little boring afterwards though. 
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When I took my class two participants used 1911s and one used a HK USP. All three did fine. I used an XD but had my 1911 as a backup. |
You're a dead ringer for the class and group featured in this month's SWAT magazine review Nice work |
That wasn't us...but it was the same training outfit. Info on the Contractor Course Article here: getoffthex.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/998104881/m/216107375 |
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