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Posted: 6/9/2005 11:12:39 AM EDT
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First time poster / long time lurker. I’d like to thank arfcom veterans for greatly accelerating my black rifle learning curve and helping me to avoid making some bad decisions. I have some private land available to me that I have been using for recreational shooting; up until now, I have been punching holes in paper, which is fine when shooting my scoped rifles but can get rather boring with pistols and carbines. What I would like to do is setup a small range that uses reactive popup targets at ranges of 10m-150m. I don’t need something that is LaRue tactical grade, but I don’t want to be replacing unhardened targets each time I use them either. My initial impression is that I’m looking for something like this: mgmtargets – but I’m sure that someone here will be able to point me in the right direction. Additionally, I’d appreciate knowledgeable opinions on: a. Probability of ricochets using pistol and rifle (predominately 5.56mm) calibers on metal targets. b. Life cycle of metal targets using XM193 ammo. Is the increased cost of frangible 5.56mm offset by the reduced chance of ricochets and the replacement cost of damaged targets? Anything else constructive would be appreciated, thanks in advance. -tgc |
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How about those big orange rubber cubes that move when you shoot them ? Check Umlaut Arms in the EE. ETA: linky click me to got to Umlaut cube ad |
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Certified AR500 target faces in 3/8" thick will not mark from AR15 hits (no AP) at distances of 50 yards or more. You can hit them thousands of times and they will still be safe and usable. I would not want to shoot any steel with an AR closer than 50 yards though. Not safe, IMHO. I especially like the small flashers that R & R make, I think they call them Self-Setters. You can get 8 or 10" faces and the hit indicator (flasher card) is visible easily at 400 yards with .223. With heavier bullets or bigger calibers they are easy to see a long ways off. No substitute for good steel. Costs something on the front end but they last for years and years. Just make sure you get certified plate. There is a good bit of off-spec AR500 around and some can be as much as 60 points from spec. It will dimple. (don't ask me how I know!). Shooting steel that has craters in the face is very dangerous. Hitting a crater causes the splater to make a u-turn in the depression and, you guessed it, come right back to you. It can happen at pretty amazing distances too. MGM makes great flash targets too, but they are a little more trouble to set up. (Just time). If you are only going to shoot relatively close his speed poppers (self resetting work well. Just hard to see them if they are more than 100 yards away. |
Thanks, that's the type of first hand info I was looking for - my main concern was eating bullet fragments. It sounds like I can't go too far wrong with a gallery of 5-6 mgm autos for pistol distances and another 5-6 R&R at 50-150M for carbines. Do you have any experience using frangible .223 ammunition? I know its used in indoor ranges to prevent overpenetration; do you think it would allow me to safely engage metal targets at ranges of 20-50M or is there still significant impact splatter? -tgc |
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I have a couple of these. Would like to maybe get more, or something like them that is bigger. I have never shot these closer than 200 yards, but a 5.56 bullet just knocks the paint off. http://www.saluteproducts.com/cascades/pdetail/33 Yes, I have experience with frangible bullets. I used them during Gunsite 556. The bullets are usually made from some organic substance which is pressed into the shape of a bullet at very high pressure. I believe corn is used on some of them. When the bullet hits, it turns to dust. Totally safe. The downside is that they cost signifiantly more than regular ball ammo. |
| The frangibles I have shot have been 5.56 milsurp. No fragging issues but they are fussy feeders. They basically turn to dust when they hit steel though. I've never considered them for practice as the cost is a lot higher that fmj ammo. What I like for close range rifle practice on steel is to use dedicated .22lr uppers. Mag change drills are useless since they are different mags, but the Ciener mags are reliable with 25 rounds which is enough for target transition drills on many multiple targets. I have a couple set up to match .223 uppers I have and use them as stand-ins. Cost of an upper is easy to gain in ammo saving over 6 months or less if you shoot much. |
My MGM flag target craters/dimples at 50yrds and 100 yrds with xm193 and WWB. I thought this was normal 
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Bowling pins aren't self-resetting. Aluminum cans full of water blow up nicely and are a good size to be challenging but set-up and clean-up take too long. I have one of the MGM auto-poppers and I like it. Mine has 3 craters in it from .223s at 25 & 50yds but from from 100yds .223-spec 55gr FMJ barely marks it at all. .357 Mag at 10yds doesn't mark it a bit. The remains of the pistol bullets I find around the auto-popper are little dime-sized discs that appear to be the bases of the bullets.. The rest of the bullet "splatters" away, as evidenced by the bits of jacket and lead embedded in the wooden target stands and the disturbed dirt. The little discs are less than a foot in front of the auto-popper and I've never seen, felt, or heard anything come back to me. (Though I don't find enough little discs to account for all of the shots I've taken.) IMHO there's no need for frangible ammo. But be sure everyone (not just the shooters) wears eye protection when on the range, just in case. IIRC the IPSC stage design rules don't allow steel closer than 10yds and the sticker on the auto popper says 15 yds. I have both a 1/3 size popper (4" circle part) and a Colt Speed Plate (6" circle) shoot plates for mine. I got the 1/3 Popper first, but the 4" circle was just too small for my 9mm--too small compared to the front sight and smaller than the slow-fire group size at 50ft--so I got the other one too. $65 for just the face+hinge. Switching is easy with two wrenches--just pull the hinge bolt and re-assemble with the other top. The .357 Mag gets a full 90 degrees of travel out of the 1/3 Popper. The 9mm not quite so much, but still a clear indication of a hit. Low hits or edge hits give weak reaction. The 6" plate is considerably heavier (1.5lbs difference--4.5/6 or 5/6.5 for just the shoot part) so reaction is less with it but I haven't paid that much attention to compare it. The .223s that cratered it gave full travel. I forget what the 100yd shots did but I could tell they were hits. It comes back up pretty fast. Almost too fast, actually. By the time you've recovered from the recoil it's back up so you have to kinda watch for the reaction. Any bystander would have no trouble spotting hits though. .22LR will move the 1/3 Popper (centerfire) about 1" at the top from 25yds so a bystander can spot hits with that too. As the shooter you have to watch for it and/or listen for the "ping" of the hit. Another tip--anchor it well. The first time I used it I bolted it to an old plywood shelf about 16x48" and set it up on concrete blocks. After about a dozen rounds the jolt of it hitting the top when resetting had bounced the front rail of the shelf off the blocks. I made some legs out of flat iron and that kinda works but isn't as stable as I'd like. You definitely need to have the front legs out in front of the shoot face to keep it from tipping over forward when it pops up. The sniper base they sell looks like it would be the hot ticket, but it's pretty expensive. I think I'm going to try putting it on a sawhorse and see how that holds up. |
This is true, but when you get a couple of dozen for free does it really matter. He can use them for closer shooting without as much fear of ricochet as the steel targets. |
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I've found that tannerite has been a lot of fun. Unfortunately, no ranges I know of will allow its use. www.tannerite.com |
I think I just found what I'm getting for my birthday! (So what if it's in November?  )
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