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Posted: 11/26/2004 5:07:01 PM EDT
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I'm going to be getting a new AR15 (A bushmaster AR15 20" Barrel w/ the A3 reciever) And I want to know how good it is as a sniper platform? I'm thinking about buying a leupold scope for it maybe some medium range shooting at around 600 yards. How accurate are the AR15s? I don't mean custom matching every part either, just attatching a scope to the flattop and zeroing it. |
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What do you mean as a "Sniper Platform"??? Are you a "sniper"? If you just want to know about accuracy, most AR-15's out of the box can shoot atleast 1 MOA. That translates out to a six inch group at 600 not counting wind and if you do everything right on your end. Where and what would you shoot at 600 though? Is that a number you just came up with or do you have a specific application in mind? For what it would cost in ammo, optics and barrels to shoot decent at 600 with a .223 you might as well start with .308..... But again you need to be a little more specific about you your asking here as far as the rifle's capibilities. If your just going to be shooting it out of the box with an optic you can expect about a one minute group at one hundred, if your actually building a sniper rifle then you may want to look for a different solution... Have a Nice day. 
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Maybe a hunting rifle, but mainly a paper puncher and semi-long range shooting. I'm sorry, I am by no means a sniper but I do want some sort of accurate intermediate ranged rifle, which is why I was looking towards the SPR, I thought about the .308 but I've heard some relaiblity issues and i'de rather not go through all those problems. I also hear the magazines for certain AR10 style rifles can be very expensive. I'de like the ability to interchange magazines with my SPR style rifle and my Carbine. Also buying bulk ammo would be a plus. I figure 5.56 would be my best bet, At 200 yards I'm certain it could take down a deer with an appropriate hit. I don't want to go all out and by a custom barrel, gas block, or anything like that. I just want something that will be reliable and accurate enough for me without breaking the bank. Which is why I was looking at a stock Bushmaster with a 20 Inch barrel and just putting on some optics and maybe adjusting a few things but overall leaving the rifle unchanged. I just wanted some ball-park ranges of what my effective range and what my maximum range is. edit: I did a search on the SPR, and i'm fairly pleased with the results..but any extra information would be helpful. |
.308 would be nice as well, if he's "only" going for 600 - 800 then the BAR-10 will suffice  Any farther and you might want to consider the Grendel  Edit to add: has anyone done any 200yrd + with a BAR yet...just curious as to how accurate they are shooting out of the box. SirDrinks: How much were you looking to spend on the rig? |
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Well, just about any AR15 with a quality, free floated HBAR profile barrel with a 1 in 8 twist or faster, 75 to 80 grain bullets, a good trigger, and a good shooter can do 1 MOA or better at 600 yards. NRA highpower masters and high masters can do it routinely, with iron sights and with only a sling for support. The question is not can the rifle do it. The question is: can you? And anyone who thinks the 308 Winchester is not something to be reckoned with at long range must not get out much. |
Not necessarily so. A Hornady 75 or Sierra 77 at 2700 fps (easily doable from a 20" barrel) will hang with a Sierra or Hornady .308 168 gr match bullet at 2550 to 2600 fps (the most common loading) all the way to 600 yards. Not only do ballistic programs predict it, real world experience validates it. A 6.5 Grendel would definitely have an advantage over those two, with the right bullet and the right MV. But then, a .264" bullet in a 308 case crushes a Grendel due to the higher MV possible. Which is why I dig my Model 70 in 260 Remington. |
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I agree with Ranger_Edge. That does NOT mean you can't do it with an AR-15 platform, but it's gets expensive when you build up a SPR clone since all the manufacturers try to jack up their prices because "Special Forces" are using their product. A Remington 700-based system, even when fully accurized, will most likely be less expensive than a SPR clone and still provide comparable or better accuracy using match ammo. You also get a wider choice of ammo for the bolt-action rifle: .300 WM comes to mind (LEOs are switching to 0.300 WM instead of using 0.308) If you still desire the black rifle but want more stopping power, the SR-25 based Navy Mk 11 Mod 0 (basically a SPR but in 0.308) would be a better choice. I never understood the reason why the Army chose to use the SPR over the Mk 11 Mod 0. |
+1 get a bolt action Savage or Remington 700 series ( not 710 ) with the savage great rifle bad stock either way a good platform out to 700 meters for a little over a $1000 with decent scope. 1. bull/heavy barrel 2. free float barrel 3. MacMillan style stock 4. and decide what you need in a scope high clarity or high magnification. And consider budget both will cost you seriously. 5. .308 / 30-06 / .300 win mag / 50 bmg Dont go .223 or .556 it has the accuraccy but not the punch. |
Why are you guys hung up on looks? On cloning something the Army uses? A well made varminter with a 20 to 24 inch barrel, shooting quality ammo, and using quality optics will shoot as well or better than any SPR clone for a hell of a lot less money. Save your money for ammo to shoot more. THAT'S how one becomes deadly with a rifle. |
Colt 6724 Armalite AR-30 in 300 Win Mag Knights SR-25 Etc 
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I already know for sure, I own both The Grendel shoots much flatter and farther then a 5.56/.223, MUCH farther... and it packs a hell of alot more punch.
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If you want to be "deadly" with a 5.56, you will be shooting at 300 yards or less. That's the real deal (and with "heavy" bullets at that). If you want to be "deadly" at 600 yards, you will be shooting .308 or 300WM. You want to punch paper? Then go ahead and shoot your poodle shooters at 600 yards - no harm, no foul. You want to kill people? Then man up to the appropriate caliber. |
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Quoted: I figure 5.56 would be my best bet, At 200 yards I'm certain it could take down a deer with an appropriate hit. quote] At 200 yards with an appropriate hit you could do it with a 22lr. I'm a good enough sport that I'm not gonna try either caliber at 200 yards. If your gonna be shooting at that range get a deer cartridge, don't try to stretch a varmint cartridge. (boy I'll bet I get flamed for that) Ballistics on the Federal .223 Rem (223L) 64 gr SP at 200 yards are 2325 fps, 770 foot/pound energy, 3.3 inch drop w/ 100 yard sight in. Miss that appropriate hit by a couple of inches and you will have a critically injured deer that you won't be able to track by a blood trail. Hit him with the same off hit using a .308 and you'll be bringing home some venison. Biggest difference is that the dead deer goes home with you instead of laying around somewhere bleeding to death for a few hours or days. To try to salvage the flaming, hey a wounded badguy from that 200 yard hit that bleeds to death in a couple of hours is still someone that won't be shooting back and was taken out of the fight. |
While what you say is mostly true regarding effective ranges, I just have to ask: are you a soldier? a cop? or a mall ninja? What's this bullshit about "you want to kill people"? Have you ever? Did you like it? GMAFB. |
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Army wants a new sniper rifle (XM-110) W15QKN-05-R-0433 FedBizOpps notice Date: 2004-11-17 Description: The U.S. Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07806 has a requirement for a 7.62mm semi-automatic sniper system (SASS) capable of delivering precision fire primarily on anti-personnel targets out to a range of 1,000 meters. This system must be a man portable, shoulder fired system utilizing military standard 7.62 x 51 mm caliber ammunition but optimized for the open-tip M118LR long range ammunition. Additionally, M993 Armor Piercing (AP) ammunition will be fired based on specific mission requirements. Compatibility with the existing family of military 7.62 x 51mm caliber ammunition is also required. The primary components of the system include a rifle, detachable bipod, hard transport/storage case(s), soft carrying case(s), cleaning/maintenance equipment, and manuals. The weapon will have a flash/sound suppressor, high capacity (up to 20-round) detachable box magazines; rails/mounting surfaces for mounting fire control (optics, backup iron sights and aim- light) systems; variable power optics/electro-optics (in order to engage targets between 50 and 1000 meters); and an accompanying spotting scope with range estimation reticle(s) and a night vision interface. There will be a Base contract of thirty (30) systems for Type Classification with four Options. The Option ranges shall be as follows: Option I quantity range of 1-250 each; Option II quantity range of 1 –550 each; Option III quantity ranges of 1-400, 401-800, 801-1,200 each; Option IV quantity ranges of 1-400, 401-800, 801-1,200 each . The offeror shall submit five (5) bid samples at no cost or obligation to the Government. The winning offeror must be able to deliver operator and maintenance manuals 15 days after contract award. The first fifteen (15) of the thirty (30) SASSs will be delivered with spare parts 30-days after contract award. The remaining fifteen (15) SASSs with spare parts will be delivered 90- days after contract award. The number of spares must be sufficient to cover Pre-Production Qualification Testing (PPQT) and Initial Operational Testing (IOT). There shall also be a First Article Test (FAT) quantity of five (5) items that must be passed prior to approval of Options. In addition, the contractor must be able to sustain a delivery schedule of 100 systems per month beginning 30 days from successful completion of First Article Testing. A competitive Request for Proposal (RFP) will be posted on the TACOM-ARDEC Acquisition Center website located at: http://procnet.pica.army.mil on or about 30 November 2004. Proposals/Bid Samples will be required within thirty (30) days from date of release of the RFP. Point of contact for this requirement is Mr. Peter Santangelo, Contract Specialist, AMSTA-AQ-APD, Bldg 10, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07806-5000, email:[email protected], telephone number: 973-724-2005. |
1 MOA at 100 yards does not equal 6" at 6oo yards... you must not get out and SHOOT distances much. |
My .300 Win Mag has more energy at 1000yds than my 20" AR15 has at 150yds. Wind drift on the other hand is similar with the 5.56 drift at 500yds equal to the 300 drift at 650yds. I guess my point is if your looking for a very accurate target semi-auto, then the AR15 makes a good SPR. If your looking for terminal ballistics at long range, then you might want to think about an AR10 or bolt action. |
While I agree that a 1 MOA rifle at 100 yards will not make a 600 yard 1 MOA rifle about 99.9% of the time, my observations regarding well built and well tuned AR15s using match grade ammo with heavy bullets is based on several years of competitive NRA and CMP Highpower rifle experience. For the past two years, I have been member in two different clubs (Central Kansas Gun Club, Miami Rifle & Pistol Club) that have a full distance (200, 300, and 600 yard firing lines) highpower match range. In addition, I have competed in matches at other clubs (OKC Gun Club, Mill Creek Rifle & Pistol Club near KCKS) and several Ohio State Regionals and the National Matches at Camp Perry. How about you? |
Going back to the original question- 1. if you free float the barrel, (i.e. install a free float handguard) a Bushmaster AR should be accurate enough. Note however that most kinds of .223 ammo aren't so good at 600yds. Military green tip (and only green tip) ammo will do better, but the best results are obtained by ammo flying the 75gr. Hornady, 77 gr. Sierra, or (best) the 80gr+ match bullets. These will probably not stabilize in a stock Bushmaster 1:9 twist barrel :(. If you're really set on hitting 600yd. targets with an AR-15, I'd recommend that you get a 1:8 or 1:7 twist barrel and a free float tube (should be available in the equipment exchange if you look for about a week or so; some vendors also have them, including Bushmaster by special request). Good ammo selection is just as important - the ammo you're looking for won't be available in gun stores, and you'll have to either order online (at generally expensive prices) or handload. Good choice on the Leupold scope. 2. as far as hunting goes, think about the ballistics. Does a 5.56 have enough energy at 200 yards to take down a deer (1000ft-lbs.)? Is there factory ammo that IS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for deer sized game at 200yd? If you handload, what bullet is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to kill deer sized game and does the manufacturer state that it be BOTH effective at AND have suffcient energy at the velcocity that the bullet will have dropped to at 200 yd? My belief is that the answer to these questions is "no". I STRONGLY suggest that if you intend to take deer at 200yd. that you go with something bigger. The .308 boltgun recommended is a good choice, and I've seen .308 Rem. 700s at Wal-Mart for about $400. And yes, match .308 ammo avaiable in gun stores will shoot far better at 600yds. than any .223 available in gunstores. (different story on handloads, though). |
I have to agree. As a SOTIC graduate I can tell you nothing really reaches out like the M24 which is just a rem 700 PSS long action on a macmillan (sp?) stock. The most expensive part of your set up is the scope. Lucky for you though the Super Sniper from SWFA is a fantastic scope at a dirt cheap price. With the Rem 700 I was able to hit about 4 out of ten at 1000 yard. (that was with a really great spotter reading trace and calling holds for me.... spotters are the real brains behind a sniper team) |
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