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Posted: 3/18/2004 11:20:32 AM EDT
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I'm wanting to build/purchase an accurate SHTF upper. I can't decide if I want 20" or 16" though. I want to get 1 moa at least with xm193 ammo. If I go 16" I'm thinking of getting a dissipator style upper. What do you guys think? Any pics of your? |
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STEEL1212 You should take a look at the mid-length gas system also, 16" barrel with the front sight base moved out about 2 more inches it just might be the best of both worlds. For SHTF weapon a light weight carbine would be best all around, the weight gets to be a factor when you need to move and move fast. Hope this helps. |
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Since M193 is a 1.5 to 2MOA round something has to give. You either have to ease your accuracy requirement or consider different ammo. For years I *thought* I wanted a 20" rifle over a 16" carbine for SHTF duties. Last year I had an epiphany and realized that a smaller and lighter carbine will accomplish everything that I expected out of my 20" rifles. That may not be true for everyone, but it was for me. For me, a smaller weapon is faster on target, easier to carry, and more appropriate for close quarters battle. My 20" rifles feel awkward and clunky indoors, but my 16" carbines feel perfect. The accuracy of my 16" carbines out to 200 meters is nearly identical to their bigger brothers. As far as accuracy beyond that I don't know and don't really care. In a brain slurping zombie horde SHTF situation if I need to reach out beyond 200 meters as a civilian I'm probably in way over my head, and in extremely deep shit. This is my SHTF_brain_eating_zombie_horde_carbine. A Colt 6400C M4: [img]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/M4_Full3.JPG[/img] |
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bsbg nice rifle! what model acog? CJan_NH also a nice rifle heres my zombie killer as it currently stand, thinking of trying out a eotech on it and moving the aimpoint over to my superlite tactical carbine project. Also interested in an ACOG either for this one or my 20inch project. [img]http://home.comcast.net/~erouls/m4tacticalfinal.jpg[/img] RRA chrome lined m4 tactical entry, SIR 50, Dieter CQD foregrip, surefire m961su. Comp m2 right now |
| you guys that worry about 1MOA...here is my rule of thumb...If I can hit a 12oz pop can out to 100m...good enough... That is a head shot on anything I will ever want to kill or eat....keeping it on a paper plate out to 400m is good enought to bring down anything I need down... useing 5.56mm out past 400m is pushing it (too little of a bullet). If you want/need to shoot past 400m (and knock it down) switch to a 7.62NATO (I like the M1A1) |
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When I said 1 moa I was just meaning I don't want a gun that is going to throw ammo around everywhere. If xm193 is 2moa than thats fine by me. I just want something that can take abuse if need be, hit something at 100 yards when I put the irons on it. Also would the 16" dissy style, chrome lined, fit this bill? |
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[red]Steel1212[/red], it sounds like the Bushy Dissipator would meet your needs perfectly then. Their dissy barrels and bores are chrome-lined, and made of proper 4150 steel. [img]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/Images/pura2b16d.jpg[/img] They are available in A2 or A3 flattop, either fluted or unfluted. |
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Dissipators are a little heavy for what they do. I'd skip it and go with a midlength. A dissy has a gasblock and an FSB whereas a midlength has only the FSB. If you're considering a dissipator, or a midlength, you may want to consieder a full 20" barrel instead. The dissipator has the same radius as a 20" rifle, so you lose the quick handling of the shorter carbine. In that case, you may want to take advantage of a full length barrel. A properly profiled 20" barrel is rather nice. |
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SHTF uppers depend a lot upon price... figure out your budget and don't be afraid to go up... you will get what you pay for... get a 16in... normal carbine or midlength... doesn't matter... make sure you get a full 16in... the 14.5 loose to much velocity... 16" is the best compromise for a SHTF weapon... don't get a dissy... if you really feel the need for 20" (like some people I know :) )... get govt. profile... it will help your speed... my personal shtf upper (not perfect but it is to me) is a m4 true gov. profile, chromelined, rasII, fixed front sight, kac vertical grip, surefire tact. light, and etc.... the only devenace i would have personally went was to go with midlength handguards... but then your bumping price, your changing from rasII to DD, or arms sir's... purchase more kac panel's and your weight will go up... and for what? a little more space on the handguards... most carbines here having vertical grips anyways...would doesn't really matter... i find myself currently using the magwell/mag hold and its wonderful in standing or prone... but whatever you do... keep it light weight, simple, and deadly... :) ...Jared |
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Jared, You need to calm down. I am getting tired of you constantly whining about your need for a 16 inch barrel. You better hope there are no targets out past 200meters, where you now have to rely on the buddies 20 incher to get the job done. You keep thinking that weapon will save your a$$. You keep on thinking that. If you want a real mans rifle, west coast all the way. |
| Need a new upper for my M4gry as well:...Think I'm going with the Bushy Dissy,People say there too heavy buy I belive you can get them in Govt profile now. add a KAS FF RAS full length,Eotech 552(or aimpoint) to suit and an AAC M4 2000 and I'm done[:)]...The only downside I can see is the Dissy still uses the carbine gas system. All my carbines run fine so I guess this isn't a problem but still not as "High speed" as the Midlength these days.....UDOG |
| good setup underdog... i would have said... if your going to go with dissy go with govt. profile... i think the type of gun that you listed is a beautiful gun when all pimped out... don't worry about carbine gas systems... they are completely fine... i would be looking at the lightest, securest full length rail system... kac is good... DD is also a choice... whats the weight? wonder what the weight is on the YHM... have to check my chart when i get home... |
| I will have a 1903A3 with a couple of extra strikers. For CQB, fire is used which burns down the indoors fighting scenario. Which are you going to do? Wait till they enter you house to fight or get them when the enter your field? When they reach your house they WILL burn it with arrows indian style. |
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Here's my SHTF carbine, my goal for this carbine was to setup a 0-300 yard weapon platform. Even though the EOTech 552 easily meets my requirements I still need an ACOG TA31...[;)] [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/117722-big.JPG[/img] 1. Pre-Armalite Eagle Arms pre-ban lower. 2. CMMG M4A3 upper with M4 feed ramps and a MP proofed 16", 4150, 5.56 NATO chambered, fully chrome lined 1:7 barrel. 3. Armalite carrier and bolt, using Wolff extra power extractor spring. 4. Knight's FF-RAS MRE rail system. 5. ARMS #40a BUIS. 6. EOTech 552 HWS. 7. Vltor Clubfoot Modstock, Vltor 5 position buffer tube and Tungsten H-Buffer. 8. TangoDown Battlegrip. 9. Surefire M900a with white navigation LED lights. 10. Single point sling with ERB and Daniel Defense end plate. So far it has been malfunction free and eats any ammo I feed it including that nasty Wolf stuff! It can also shoot XM193 better than I can...[:D] Damn flyer![:(!] [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/117777.JPG[/img] |
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Yojimbo your weapon is beautiful :)... just thougth i'd let you know... what was your purposes for going with mre? Thanks! --- as for ak's... they make great sandy enviornment weapons... great jungle weapons... but anything more? Nah... the point of combat is to place a bullet where you want it... and an ar will get you there much faster... ar's give you the ability to customize the weapon to yourself instead of the other way around... fast cqc optics are required, mounted flashlights and etc... ak's can't really do this without extreme custom projects... which will set you at the cost of an ar... if you really concerned about parts breaking... they are availble all for about $20's... having backups is not a bad idea... but i don't even think its required... we know what goes wrong on an ar if it does break something... |
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Quoted: Yojimbo your weapon is beautiful :)... just thougth i'd let you know... what was your purposes for going with mre? Thanks! I wanted a free floated rail system to hang all my stuff on that kept the top rail even with the upper receiver rail. I also like the extended rail portion because I feel it makes the 16" barrels look better. It's a lot of rails but it's doesn't really add any noticable weight or bulk and it's better have the rails and not need them than to need them and not have them.[;)] The main reason I got it is because I wanted a MRE rail, and I got a great deal on it from Adco![:D] |
| My vote goes for the Dissapator. And keep the thing simple. Too many folks hang way too much junk on the things anymore. The AR is first and formost a rifle designed for combat. That said,the more you put on the thing, the more likely that something is going to fail.....At a time which you need 100% reliability. Spend your money on a well made rifle of whichever type you settle on and plenty of ammo to practice with. No amount of do-dads will ever replace a reliable weapon backed up by a well trained marksman.If you need Optics due to a eyesight issue, then use them. If you don't need them. Then make them a secondary consideration. Keep the thing as simple as YOU need. |
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Quoted: My vote goes for the Dissapator. And keep the thing simple. Too many folks hang way too much junk on the things anymore. The AR is first and formost a rifle designed for combat. That said,the more you put on the thing, the more likely that something is going to fail.....At a time which you need 100% reliability. Spend your money on a well made rifle of whichever type you settle on and plenty of ammo to practice with. No amount of do-dads will ever replace a reliable weapon backed up by a well trained marksman.If you need Optics due to a eyesight issue, then use them. If you don't need them. Then make them a secondary consideration. Keep the thing as simple as YOU need. So, the extra parts that go into making a dissy don't make it more complicated? |
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Quoted: Since M193 is a 1.5 to 2MOA round something has to give. You either have to ease your accuracy requirement or consider different ammo. For years I *thought* I wanted a 20" rifle over a 16" carbine for SHTF duties. Last year I had an epiphany and realized that a smaller and lighter carbine will accomplish everything that I expected out of my 20" rifles. That may not be true for everyone, but it was for me. For me, a smaller weapon is faster on target, easier to carry, and more appropriate for close quarters battle. My 20" rifles feel awkward and clunky indoors, but my 16" carbines feel perfect. The accuracy of my 16" carbines out to 200 meters is nearly identical to their bigger brothers. As far as accuracy beyond that I don't know and don't really care. In a brain slurping zombie horde SHTF situation if I need to reach out beyond 200 meters as a civilian I'm probably in way over my head, and in extremely deep shit. This is my SHTF_brain_eating_zombie_horde_carbine. A Colt 6400C M4: [url]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/M4_Full3.JPG[/url] How did that surefire M500a affect weapon balance? |
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Quoted: --- as for ak's... they make great sandy enviornment weapons... great jungle weapons... but anything more? Nah... the point of combat is to place a bullet where you want it... and an ar will get you there much faster... ar's give you the ability to customize the weapon to yourself instead of the other way around... fast cqc optics are required, mounted flashlights and etc... ak's can't really do this without extreme custom projects... which will set you at the cost of an ar... I would agree. Ihe only advantage I really see with an AK is that 7.62x39 will penetrate trees alot better. Definitely a factor if you live in a forested evironment as I do. I'd still take an AR but I keep a few AKs ready to go. WTH[:D] |
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Quoted: Quoted: Since M193 is a 1.5 to 2MOA round something has to give. You either have to ease your accuracy requirement or consider different ammo. For years I *thought* I wanted a 20" rifle over a 16" carbine for SHTF duties. Last year I had an epiphany and realized that a smaller and lighter carbine will accomplish everything that I expected out of my 20" rifles. That may not be true for everyone, but it was for me. For me, a smaller weapon is faster on target, easier to carry, and more appropriate for close quarters battle. My 20" rifles feel awkward and clunky indoors, but my 16" carbines feel perfect. The accuracy of my 16" carbines out to 200 meters is nearly identical to their bigger brothers. As far as accuracy beyond that I don't know and don't really care. In a brain slurping zombie horde SHTF situation if I need to reach out beyond 200 meters as a civilian I'm probably in way over my head, and in extremely deep shit. This is my SHTF_brain_eating_zombie_horde_carbine. A Colt 6400C M4: [url]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/M4_Full3.JPG[/url] How did that surefire M500a affect weapon balance? It makes it a little more nose heavy than stock, but it isn't much different than what I had before: [img]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/M4_light3.JPG[/img] The only time I can feel the difference is with a magwell hold, and even then it's minimal. |
| Since its only an added sight tower. Not much. My point is it isn't something bolted on some rail which could come loose or fail. Heck I even have scopes with illuminated reticles. But unlike dot sights,when the batteries go I still have crosshairs.And if the dung does hit the fan. I doubt if batteries will be in great supply. |
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Quoted: Since its only an added sight tower. Not much. My point is it isn't something bolted on some rail which could come loose or fail. Heck I even have scopes with illuminated reticles. But unlike dot sights,when the batteries go I still have crosshairs.And if the dung does hit the fan. I doubt if batteries will be in great supply. That's why we have BUIS...In the mean time I'll take all the advantages of my EOTech 552. I also think it's a given that anyone with half a brain will take the time to learn how to properly mount, use and maintain their equipment. BTW, for a SHTF I've got a buttload of AA batteries for all my other stuff that take it so AA's won't be scare around my place. Having optics or a light does not make your weapon unusable if they fail. If they fail I'm just back down to your level. There's nothing wrong with K.I.S.S. but having battle proven optics and accessories definitely gives you an advantage. Either way I'm not out of the fight when I'm down to this...[:D] [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/118263-big.JPG[/img] |
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My SHTF gun. Colt M16A2 M4 Surefire M73, Eotech M, Surefire light, TD grips w/ extra batteries, LMT Buis, BO TacLatch, Crane Stock, DD Ambi rear Loop, DD RFML, KNS Sear Pin, inside KAC Full Auto Match Trigger, LMT M4 SOCOM bolt and carrier. Barrel is Chrome Lined original Colt M4 and Colt M4 upper. Flash hider is for my Gemtech M96 QD Silencer/Flash hider. Accuracy with SS 109 Lake City is around 2.00 with Eotech. Federal Match 68 grain is around 1" to 1.5" from rest, probably would be better with a scope. [img]http://www.glocksbr.com/_img.upload/CAMO M-4 RIGHT.jpg[/img] Denny |
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The advantages of the Dissipater are: 1. It has a longer sight radius. This is good if you’re planning on using the iron sights. If you’re planning on going with a quality optic (I would) then it is of little concern. One draw back is that the Dissy putts the front sight on the end of the barrel. In my experience the end of the barrel is what usually gets banged into things like door jams, floor boards and doors of vehicles ect. I do not like the idea of having my front sight out there were it can get smacked into stuff. 2. The barrel is covered by hand guard. This is nice when the barrel heats up if you are using a tactical sling. When you let the rifle hang on the sling you are less likely to get burned on the leg. The problem is you do not get a lot of surface area exposed to help cool the rifle. You could put a Knights M5 RAS on it and that would give you a forward rail set up and allow the barrel to get better ventilation. If you’re going to go with a Dissy just go with a 20 inch barrel. You’re not gaining that much and you are loosing the quick handling of the carbine. The only true advantage that the Dissy has over a 20 inch barrel is that it is easier to get in and out of a vehicle with the Dissy. In the end I would suggest getting the lightest upper you can. 16 or 14.5 inch light weight barrel on a flat top upper. Remember your asking about a SHTF rifle not some match rifle. Add a BUIS of your choice and either an ACOG, EOtech or an Aimpoint M2 or ML2. A light is very handy in the dark. Get a Surefire of your liking. Do not go over board on the light as this will add weight. Look into getting either a Tango Down grip that stores batteries and / or a Vltor stock. It is nice to have batteries on the rifle instead of in a pouch or forgotten at home. A word on the Mid length set ups. I like them but for a SHTF rifle they are a no go. You need to keep you focus on SHTF. Everything on that rifle needs to be as near to a standard US GI M16 or M4 as you can make it. If you need to cannibalize another rifle to keep yours running then it needs to be as close as possible. Mid lengths use different sized hand guards and gas tubes. This can be a problem. Not a big one just something I am not willing to throw into the mix. This is my SHTF rifle. It does appear to have a lot of crap strapped to it but I assure you that each and everything on this rifle is there by design and serves specific function I feel I need. It has a 14.5 inch Colt light weight barrel with a Vortex pinned on the end. [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/064256.jpg[/img] This is my wife’s SHTF rifle. She needed it to be as light as possible. The only thing I am planning on adding to this rifle is either a Compact ACOG or an Aimpoint. This is a very handy little rifle and a joy to carry. It to has a 14.5 inch Colt light weight barrel with a Vortex pinned on the end. [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/063183.jpg[/img] |
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the KISS stance is just for people who cannot afford the pimp additions to the ar platform :D on a more serious note... yes keep it as simple as you can... but battle proven optics eg. acogs & aimpoints only help in your speed a flexibilty... always have buis... flashlights are so handy at night i don't even want to go into it :)... i'm wondering if the older ar15 lovers are just scared of putting electronics on their guns ;D |
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