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Posted: 1/15/2004 7:45:26 AM EDT
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Can someone tell me what the overall length has to be on a post-ban AR? Looking for it at www.atf.gov made me want to poke my eyes out. Thanks. Jake |
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While I'm sure this doesn't apply in the free state of Texas, some areas/states have gone the NFA/GCA one better... In Michigan for example, if your long gun has a collapsible stock the overall length must be 30" with the stock at its shortest position, otherwise it's a handgun and has to be registered... |
| Im a little confused myself on the length deal here. My post-ban with pinned collapsible stock is 34" over all .. If the length requirment is 26" or even 30" why would it matter if my stock collapsed or not. Collapsed it would still be over 30" over all.. Why must it be pinned or is the ATF to dumb to realize this ??? Looking into it i can legally install the short ACE ARFX-e stock on my rifle which is equal to a collapsed stock length wise , would this also mean i can un-pin my collapsible stock and re-pin it in the collapsed position provideing my rifle wasnt under the 30" mark when finished? Any info would be great, i may have to email the BATF on this one.... |
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Quoted: Im a little confused myself on the length deal here. My post-ban with pinned collapsible stock is 34" over all .. If the length requirment is 26" or even 30" why would it matter if my stock collapsed or not. BECAUSE (dramatic pause) the AW ban doesn't give a rat's a$$ about the lenght of the rifle - it restricts weapons based on specific features. Telescoping & Folding stocks are an 'evil feature' (TM) and as such they don't want you to have them. Has absolutely nothing to do with how long your rifle is. Collapsed it would still be over 30" over all.. Here is one better: For federal rules overall length is measure with the stock EXTENDED (not collapsed). If it were with the stock collapsed then they could not sell M1 carbines with the wire stocks (paratrooper versions) without NFA stamps. However in the 1960's the .MIL wanted to surplus them to civilians so they modified the NFA (rifles used to have a 18" limit like shotguns - that was changed so they could suplus M1 carbines with 16" barrels). Why must it be pinned or is the ATF to dumb to realize this ??? No just people too lazy to read the law to understand why you can't have a telestock. |
| So would my rifle be illegal if i pinned my tele stock in the collapsed position so it could not be moved, or will i have to buy the ARFX-e stock to get the length I want legaly? I have seen some newer stocks on the market that come with screws and allow the user to set a desired length and screw the stock in place to comply with the legal issues. What would be the difference in those stocks and doing the same to a standard tele-stock??? I've read the law but no where do they give detail as to acceptable alternatives to the situation. |
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Quoted: So would my rifle be illegal if i pinned my tele stock in the collapsed position so it could not be moved, There are two answers to this, the theoretical and the practical (real) one. Theoretically you could do that PROVIDING it was permanent. Since the BATF has never approved any such attempt (you can't weld plastic to aluminum), and they don't consider JB weld permanent (no matter how much you use). If you could do this Bushmaster & RRA would have been doing it long ago - rather than come up with that custom 'full length' telestock tube. So [b]Practically[/b] you can't do that. or will i have to buy the ARFX-e stock to get the length I want legaly? Or the RRA/Bushy Stubby stock with one of the many available spacers or adjustable buttplates. I have seen some newer stocks on the market that come with screws and allow the user to set a desired length and screw the stock in place to comply with the legal issues. What would be the difference in those stocks and doing the same to a standard tele-stock??? 1) The Stocks are NOT adjustable - they are fixed at a specific length. The [b]BUTTPLATE[/b] is adjusted (important difference since buttplates are not covered by the AWB) 2) These Buttplates require TOOLS to adjust their dimensions (cant, length, height). As such they are 'Match adjustable parts' not 'telescoping military stocks' (which you can alter in a few seconds). I've read the law but no where do they give detail as to acceptable alternatives to the situation. And they won't - its not their job. Its your job to know & understand it, and figure out how to do what you want while compying with the law. But as it stands you can't get 'on the fly' adjustability for length. You'll need tools no matter which route you take (spacers or adjustable buttplate). |
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To clear things up im not looking for adjustability. Im just wanting a shorter stock since my arm length isnt so great. I was hopeing to be able to accomplish this with my existing stock. You say the BATF hasnt approved any type of tele-stock mod, but if this was the case why does DPMS ship there Lite 16" with a REAL collapsible tele-stock, only pinned in the reward position. Are they selling illegal rifles? The tube on my rifle is a 4 position tube, all 4 holes are present and the lever for adjustability is functional, i just cant move the stock due to the 2 pins. I guess ill prob just have to ask the BATF directly and hope for a answer. Again im not looking to be able to adjust my stock on the fly, i would just like to pin it collapsed, in theory makeing is a fixed stock the same length as the ARFX-e stock. Hell i would even add epoxy if that would suffice the law. viper out........ |
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After looking at the legal forum I think I found the answer to my question in post.. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=222384 According to the letter provided in this post, I should be able to remove the pins in my stock, move it to the collapsed position, repin it and even apply epoxy to the inside of the stock , and still be within the law.... Although there is no way to weld the plastic to the metal, the Pins, Epoxy, and even a bolt in place of the latch mechanisim would make this stock permanently fixed, and would require serious damage to the stock to change it. In effect i could have my shorter fixed stock legaly and still have a rifle longer then 26" 's.... |
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Quoted: My post-ban with pinned collapsible stock is 34" over all .. If the length requirment is 26" or even 30" why would it matter if my stock collapsed or not. Collapsed it would still be over 30" over all.. That was what i was thinking about too. Why don't manufacturers offer a collapsed, fixed stock with the short buffer and buffer tube? Am I missing something? I asked the original question because I want to stick an Ace Ultra Lite Entry or Ace ARFX Entry Skeleton on my post-ban. Looks like I'm good to go. |
| I just sent an email to the BATF requesting a little more info as to acceptible ways of modifing a tele-stock to be within the law. Hopefully they reply. I know my DPMS post-ban is all original and it came with a tele-stock roll pinned and epoxyed in place in the fully extended position. I dont think DPMS would be selling rifles with these stocks if they hadnt received permission. I just want to be able to shorten it, and then re-install roll pins, and re-epoxy it so it wont move. |
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Quoted: After looking at the legal forum I think I found the answer to my question in post.. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=222384 According to the letter provided in this post, I should be able to remove the pins in my stock, move it to the collapsed position, repin it and even apply epoxy to the inside of the stock , and still be within the law.... The letter says no such thing. It states: "...permanently weld the stock.." How do you weld plastic to aluminum? the metal, the Pins, Epoxy, and even a bolt in place of the latch mechanisim would make this stock permanently fixed, and would require serious damage to the stock to change it. I guess you don't listen very well. Its been tried by Bushmaster (and a couple others) - it would have been far cheaper to go that route than make a new sylte of receiver extension. BATF has never considered JB weld to be permanent. |
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Quoted: To clear things up im not looking for adjustability. Im just wanting a shorter stock since my arm length isnt so great. Have you looked at the Sully Stock? Its a fixed stock a little over 8" long (longer than ARFX short or the Stubby - yet shorter than the A1) and it comes with a spacer to lengthen it a bit more if you so desire (still less than A1 stock length). , but if this was the case why does DPMS ship there Lite 16" with a REAL collapsible tele-stock, only pinned in the reward position. Are they selling illegal rifles? [/qutoe] Quite possibly - they've done it before. Right after the AW ban they were selling rifles with permanently attached A2 flash supressors. Somehow they didn't actually READ the law and 'thought' that just removing the threads was enough [rolleyes]. I guess ill prob just have to ask the BATF directly and hope for a answer. That is the BEST way. But the only way its worth didly is if you send a letter to the Technical Branch of the BATF (they are the ones that decide this kind of thing - forget asking your local office). The Tech Branch will respond in writing (much better if you're dragged into court to have a letter from the tech branch - rather than say 'sombody' at the office told you "XYZ"). Hell i would even add epoxy if that would suffice the law. So would we all - there are reasons why we haven't done it. |
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