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Posted: 9/25/2003 2:53:51 PM EDT
I have built several AR's of my own and helped a couple of co-workers modify theirs with new barrels, stocks etc. All of the rifles I have worked on have been taken to the range and fired by many of my fellow LEO's. A few of them have seen the light about the Black Rifle and the fun one can have with it. Plus, our Department is considering allowing patrol rifles to be carried in our cruisers. Several of my co-workers have approached me to BUILD them an AR.

If they buy the parts and I "help" them assemble the rifle, am I violating any of the ATF's rulings. I don't want to get into trouble.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 3:08:17 PM EDT
To me "help" is the key word. They buy, they assemble, you supervise, no problem as far as I see. I could be wrong, have been before, will be again. MM419
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 3:25:44 PM EDT
Not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV.... but I would think that as long as they buy the parts & are present while you put it together (or with their help when needed) then everything should be OK. If they hand you all the parts at work, you take the pieces home & build it & give them the assembled rifle the next day at work then there might be a problem. And if you buy all the parts, put it together & they buy the finished rifle from you...[:(][peep]
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 5:23:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 5:26:30 PM EDT by mcsd2598]
As long as you don't advertise to anyone what you are doing. If only you and the actual owner are present[wink, wink] who would know if you supervised or built it all by yourself? Tell the owner that if any serious inquiries are made about the build that you only supervised\assisted. Do you think the ATF or IRS is realy gonna go kickin' in doors over the excise tax. That would be a very remote possibility. Edit to add: I wouldn't build any one a rifle for patrol carry. I would go with a major factory brand and have any work done by a reputable gunsmith. If its for personal use go right ahead.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 5:35:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 5:35:56 PM EDT by 75shark]
You might check on what your dept will allow before everyone runs out and buys parts. The lower receiver is the make of the rifle so if they only allow say Colt,Bushmaster or Armalite such as mine does,you will need to have one of those lowers. Some agencies won't allow kit guns or guns that aren't factory built.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 5:45:55 PM EDT
I don't see where the problem, if any, would lie. The lower has to be ran through for anyone to aquire it and if you yourself are aquiring the lower, then draw up a bill of sale to the new owner.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:00:41 PM EDT
This may or may not have anything to do with your helping.... But you are not manufacturing anything... you are simply assembling. Plus you didn't mention whether you are going to charge them. Finally, as far as I know, even gun smiths don't need to have a license. Just as long as you are not manufacturing the lower (or other serial numbered part) for purposes of sale. But you may want to check on the legal forum or an actual lawyer.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:04:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Womb-Raider: I don't see where the problem, if any, would lie. The lower has to be ran through for anyone to aquire it and if you yourself are aquiring the lower, then draw up a bill of sale to the new owner.
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I would think that would lead to more problems. It might lead one to think that you were manufacturing rifles and avoiding taxes. If you are doing this for work, is there any chance that an area at your facility could be set aside for use assembling the rifles? You could round everyone up and help them assemble the rifles. Pretty hard to question that.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:08:13 PM EDT
If you take possession of the lower then you need to tranfer the lower to you. If you are doing this for a business then you need to be licensed. If they stand there and watch you do the work then you don't need a licence because it hasn't left their possession. If you take all the upper parts home to assemble that, then take it back to them in the morning you will be legal since the upper isn't controlled and the lower never left their possession.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:31:16 PM EDT
You all must live in commie land or as I like to call it the North. In the South once you buy a receiver ( the part with the numbers ) it is your property, you can trade, loan, or destroy it, like any other peice of your property. If you want your buddy to take a file or hammer to it then you can. The problem is if your buddy charges you or buys the receiver ( the part with the numbers ) knowing he is going to sell it to you. Chances are if you can sell your gun in the newspaper without having do any kind of transfer of ownership paperwork you should be able to work on freinds guns, for free. Some states require transfer paperwork to be filled out and turned in to the State Police on handguns only and some states require it on all guns. The problem is I can't think of any deep southern states that have laws like this just northern states and of course the Peoples Republic of Cal.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:37:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mcsd2598: Do you think the ATF or IRS is realy gonna go kickin' in doors over the excise tax. That would be a very remote possibility.
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Maybe, but not one that I'd want to bet my life/RKBA on. How many people have been killed or had their homes burned down by over-zealous JBTs for less? Remember Waco? [flame]
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 10:42:15 PM EDT
AFAIK the lower receiver is the "gun" as far as the ATF goes. If your buddies own the lower receiver then all you're doing is adding accessories to an existing firearm. Hoppy
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 6:30:49 AM EDT
If you're going to build weapons for other people, friends or customers, for profit or for free, it's cheaper to pay for an 07 FFL, than to keep a lawyer on retainer. In either case, I'd be more concerned about Civil Liability, than Criminal Prosecution for manufacturing without a license or tax evasion. You can get the proper licenses and pay the appropriate taxes. However, since you aren't actually making all the parts yourself, and in fact are using used and surplus parts, you may have little control over the final quality (read safety) of the product. Additionally, you have no control over the weapon once it leaves your possession. Remember, "No good deed goes unpunished". It may reach your level of comfort if your "friend" wants to use your tools, under your supervision, to build his weapon, with his supplied parts. I'd take a hard look at what my homeowners or liability insurance would/wouldn't cover. I guess my point is that Liability Insurance may be a necessity, even if profit is not a goal. I'm neither a Lawyer nor an Accountant, so none of my comments should be taken as legal or accounting advice. I have, however gone to a school of great minds and allegedly know something about commerce. Additionally, I had type 06 and 07 FFLs, with SOT status, for six years and, at one point, was very adept at interpreting and dealing with the regulations of the BATF. YMMV.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 5:45:37 PM EDT
Thanks for the input. There were several good points brought up. 1. I believe the excise tax is paid when the lower is purchased and the owner/seller fills in the BATF forms. This is one reason I told them they would have to purchase the lower from a licensed dealer, thus taking care of the tax issue and the BATF forms in one fell swoop. 2. I have discussed the reliability issues with the prospective owners and they have all said they want them to practice with, not as actual carry weapons. Our Department doesn't allow non-issued ammo to be fired thru Department weapons, so practice must be be done with a similar, privately owned weapon. 3. I will have the owner there when I assemble his weapon. This will serve two functions. One is to teach him/her how the weapon works so that they will be better able to correct a problem if one should occur. The second reason is to get them interested in shooting sports in general. More shooters, more voters for our cause.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 7:12:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TAC40: Thanks for the input. There were several good points brought up. 1. I believe the excise tax is paid when the lower is purchased and the owner/seller fills in the BATF forms. This is one reason I told them they would have to purchase the lower from a licensed dealer, thus taking care of the tax issue and the BATF forms in one fell swoop.
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I don't think that this is quite correct. IIRC, the tax is only due when the parts actually become a 'firearm'. State/local sales tax is collected at time of purchase, but unless you buy a complete AR, the Federal tax (12% ?) is not collected. The tax is due when the parts are assembled. Same is true even if you buy a complete lower and a complete upper SEPERATELY. (i.e. Say you order a RRA lower from Legal Transfers, then buy a complete upper from ADCO Firearms. The tax is due at the point in time when you assemble the two receivers.) I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the 'net, but I believe this is the way it works. I not trying to dissuade you, but want you to know what you're doing could be a violation. Granted, there is slim chances that you'd ever find yourself in trouble, but I try to avoid even 'technical' violations. I don't need the feds breaking down my door over something stupid.
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