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Posted: 9/10/2003 2:56:14 AM EDT
Ok, if this is a true CQB then the emphasis is on SHORT range. As such, why not a 14.5" or better yet, an 11.5" barrel (SBR, of course)? At what range is accuracy lost btw 11.5" & 14.5" vs a 16" barrel?
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 2:57:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pulpsmack: Ok, if this is a true CQB then the emphasis is on SHORT range. As such, why not a 14.5" or better yet, an 11.5" barrel (SBR, of course)?
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I think that concept is pretty much agreed upon by the law enforcement and military communities.
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 6:08:28 PM EDT
I know a guy on one of the county SWAT's, and his weapon is an M4 Commando/11.5"! I fired a SBR with 11.5" with no noticeable affect on accuracy at 50 yards. I'm sure 100 yards would be the same. The velocity loss from the Short barrel is the problem, not the accuracy.
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 6:17:18 PM EDT
Like this? [:D] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid65/p76a0092fd10d6e2dbd647b8602959ce0/fbe9af60.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 6:35:01 PM EDT
I don't know! The time he brought it up to show me, I missed him! I have no Idea how it's outfitted!
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 6:35:27 PM EDT
Would a 14.5" be better in terms of gas tube reliability, or does the 11.5" work fine?
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 6:42:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2003 6:44:05 PM EDT by markm]
If I were to buy an 11.5, I'd make damn sure it was of COLT manufacture! When you start pushing the envelope on shortness you gots ta stick with the best.
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 6:42:55 PM EDT
You can get an 11.5" to work fine with a PRI fat boy gas tube - ask Wes at MSTN here on the board. You will have no problems with a correctly assembled 14.5" barrel, and will have better distance accuracy. For strickly CQB, I'd love an 11.5 or even 10.5 barrel. But I'm not gonna jump through the gov hoops and pay the tax - and be registered - for 4 inches less. Hell, what kind of country is this when we have to PAY to reduce our love guns by 4"?
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 6:59:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By markm: If I were to buy an 11.5, I'd make damn sure it was of COLT manufacture! When you start pushing the envelope on shortness you gots ta stick with the best.
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That is a Colt M4 Commando Enhanced...and it runs 100%
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 7:11:57 PM EDT
[}:D] Hehehe, reminds me of the movie HEAT[;)]
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 8:32:34 PM EDT
Velocity is lost with the shorter barrels not accuracy. For CQB a 10.5", 11.5", or 14.5" barrel will do just fine. That's what they are for. If you don't have a SBR a 16" barrel is still more than manageable in CQB. Ammo choice is more important with the shorter barrels. PS: I'll pass on getting hit with any round at any range from any barrel, thank you! Ray
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 9:22:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 9:36:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2003 9:38:15 PM EDT by Right_On_Target]
How about a 5.56 pistol. Not one of those AR receivers with pistol grip and no stock. I mean a pistol built from the ground up to be intended to be a 5.56. I know that it would have a pretty thick/long LOP but if it could done, would you go for one. Or how about one based on the .223 WSSM. You could load it up a little hotter and just blast away. You could base it on the 1911 platform. Use a dbl stack Caspian frame, 6" longslide (or 5"), Trijicon night sights and a Surefire M? light/laser combo. Or using that pic. rail you could attach a forward handle, upgrade to a 30rd mag (something like a sten mag) and go full auto. Hell why stop there, add a shortened M203 launcher. Then take that gun and offer a conversion to go to the short 12ga. Has anyone seen those dime size 12ga cartridges by Aquila? You could have 8 rounds in an extended mag and load it up with either 00 (or 000 if you can come by it) Buckshot or slugs. I see a major advance in self defense weapons here. Seriously though, I have always wanted to convert an AR to a 12 or 16ga shotgun. Now how bad ass would that be, super short semi automatic shotgun with removable magazine. Oh yeah sounds a lot like the Franchi SPAS that was totally rejected by those rejects in power in that little district outside virginia.
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 10:34:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Right_On_Target: Seriously though, I have always wanted to convert an AR to a 12 or 16ga shotgun. Now how bad ass would that be, super short semi automatic shotgun with removable magazine. Oh yeah sounds a lot like the Franchi SPAS that was totally rejected by those rejects in power in that little district outside virginia.
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Meanwhile there's the Saiga. And speaking of CQB, I have a SBS Saiga project in mind for my car.
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 11:18:02 PM EDT
I completely forgot about the SAIGA but thats probably because I want nothing to do with communist or formerly communist regimes so I automatically put it out of mind. I handled one of those and it was intriguing but I was not impressed with the quality of it. Is it a full 12 ga or only a .410? I was under the assumption that it was only .410. I would like to go all out and have a 12ga but a 20 or 16ga would be fairly sufficient. I wonder if there are any machinists out there willing to tackle this project. I am an engineer so I could do some drawing and blueprinting but I'm not nearly skilled nor equiped enough to do the actual work. Building a simple parts gun is one thing, machining a receiver to accomodate a totally differnt caliber would be totally out of my league. I have done some measurements and it wouldn't be that hard to convert from .308 to .410 due to a .308 being necked down. And it is totally possible to have a .308 AR as proven by armalite and DPMS.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 1:36:01 AM EDT
Saigas come in your choice in .410 or 12-gauge. This is for certain. I almost thought I saw a 20-gauge as well, but as the 12 is my only interest, I would have only given other configs a fleeting glimpse.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 4:08:14 AM EDT
One thing you should be concerned about is the noise. If you've never fired an 11.5" in a confined space like a hallway/small bedroom/bathroom, you're in for one hell of a surprise. Worse yet, try having your teammate let one go about 2 feet from you. Talk about developing a flinch, even with hearing protection. I couldn't imagine not having protection, you'd probably lose an ear drum or two. Most of the teams I know of are now putting suppressors on their 11.5's to reduce the noise and concussion for their own protection. VSP
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 4:47:11 AM EDT
Doesn't adding the suppressor also add length, thus defeating the handling advantage of the short barrel? Maybe a Kitty Kat upper with a suppressor is the answer.[uzi]
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 4:51:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VSP: One thing you should be concerned about is the noise. If you've never fired an 11.5" in a confined space like a hallway/small bedroom/bathroom, you're in for one hell of a surprise. Worse yet, try having your teammate let one go about 2 feet from you. Talk about developing a flinch, even with hearing protection. I couldn't imagine not having protection, you'd probably lose an ear drum or two. Most of the teams I know of are now putting suppressors on their 11.5's to reduce the noise and concussion for their own protection. VSP
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Man, are you ever right. My ears HURT just thinking about it. When I shoot my 10" it feels like my teeth are going to crack and the shockwave pounds my skull. It makes my 9mm upper sound like a bb-gun in comparision. I would think the severe ear pain, the shockwave, and the hughe flash would be way too distracting to make it a practical weapon choice, but amazingly it is.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 4:59:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Originally Posted By markm: If I were to buy an 11.5, I'd make damn sure it was of COLT manufacture! When you start pushing the envelope on shortness you gots ta stick with the best.
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That is a Colt M4 Commando Enhanced...and it runs 100%
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Lumpy, What does the "Enhanced" refer to?
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 5:01:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2003 5:02:47 AM EDT by Lumpy196]
Hell I dont know. Thats why they're calling them these days. Im assuming it has to do with the new extractor insert and whatever other tweeks they are doing these days to make them run 100%. A Colt expert will have to answer that.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 7:34:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MADM16A1:
Originally Posted By VSP: One thing you should be concerned about is the noise. If you've never fired an 11.5" in a confined space like a hallway/small bedroom/bathroom, you're in for one hell of a surprise. Worse yet, try having your teammate let one go about 2 feet from you. Talk about developing a flinch, even with hearing protection. I couldn't imagine not having protection, you'd probably lose an ear drum or two. Most of the teams I know of are now putting suppressors on their 11.5's to reduce the noise and concussion for their own protection. VSP
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Man, are you ever right. My ears HURT just thinking about it. When I shoot my 10" it feels like my teeth are going to crack and the shockwave pounds my skull. It makes my 9mm upper sound like a bb-gun in comparision. I would think the severe ear pain, the shockwave, and the hughe flash would be way too distracting to make it a practical weapon choice, but amazingly it is.
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Shooting a 14.5 or 16 in indoors would probably have a very similar affect. Putting a quality flash suppessor (like vortex or phantom) on the short barrel will elimate the flash problem. Using a sound suppessor will also eliminate the flash and the overal length will still be shorter than a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel that would probably also need a silencer.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 8:25:26 AM EDT
What does the "Enhanced" refer to?
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It has a 4-pos selector.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 5:32:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2003 8:34:03 PM EDT by RH33]
As far as shooting any .223 weapon in close quarters you will definitely need hearing protection! Try Peltor’s Com-Tac (around $250ish I think) or Aearo Combat Arms Earplugs ($7 a set). Both are a lot cheaper and have A LOT less paper work to acquire than a suppressor. Yes, an attached suppressor will not require the amount of time hearing protection will take to put on or in, but if the bad guy fires and doesn’t use a suppressor it is still going to be loud. I use the Aearo’s on entries or if I have time prior to deploying my AR. I always keep a set in the handle with the weapon. We train with one guy kneeling and one guy standing over him firing bursts from 11.5" barrel Bushies. It will definitely get your attention! But you can work through it when you know what to expect. If you’re forced to engage a suspect, burglar, etc. at any time you should have a quality light (Surefire) on your weapon or at least one with you. If the light is activated (for target ID) then the flash from the barrel, even with out a F/S, will be insignificant, but the Phantom and the Vortex both due a far better job than the A2. Now as far as Barrel length for .223, my understanding is that anything under 9” will not give reliable penetration of soft body armor. So if you are not worried about body armor then a shorter pistol caliber weapon will be far better on the ears, etc., but then comes in the question of pistol caliber rounds over penetrating the bad guy, interior walls… Ray
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 8:29:50 PM EDT
[b]Putting a quality flash suppessor (like vortex or phantom) on the short barrel will elimate the flash problem[/b] I must respectfully disagree. While teaching a tactics/weapons maintenance course to the Salvadoran Recondo students a few years ago, we did a night demo on barrel-lengths and flash signautres. The officers, of course, all carried Colt Commandos because they are muy cool. After demonstrating the flash signatures of the shorties vs. the full-length rifles (all equipped with Vortex's) the officers (if you want to call them that) couldn't get rid of those short-barreled little mo!!!@#$%^&er fu!@#$%^&*ers fast enough. SD
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 4:16:11 AM EDT
RH33, What do you guys do for communications? How do you wear the headset with the ear protection on? We can normally get one ear plugged if contact is expected, but what about searching? We don't like giving up our hearing when moving into position of during the entry when were doing the sneak and peak? VSP
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:50:03 AM EDT
Can't listen to all this Colt shorty worship without putting a plug in for MSTN's 10.5 LMT shorty uppers. Very accurate and 100% reliable out of the box. (with no fancy fatboy tubes or tweaks). I shot a few off the back of a boat waiting for game day in the Gulf and just fell in love. The high speed boys prefer them to the m4 in tight spots like shipboard/cqb environments. They seem to suffer none of the reliability challenges that pop up with the 14.5's. God bless their hearing if they fire one in a ship's space though. (Depending upon mission they'd leave off the KAC suppressors for manueverability.)
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:40:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SailorDude: [b]Putting a quality flash suppessor (like vortex or phantom) on the short barrel will elimate the flash problem[/b] I must respectfully disagree. While teaching a tactics/weapons maintenance course to the Salvadoran Recondo students a few years ago, we did a night demo on barrel-lengths and flash signautres. The officers, of course, all carried Colt Commandos because they are muy cool. After demonstrating the flash signatures of the shorties vs. the full-length rifles (all equipped with Vortex's) the officers (if you want to call them that) couldn't get rid of those short-barreled little mo!!!@#$%^&er fu!@#$%^&*ers fast enough. SD
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Okay, I would logically assume a 20 in barrel equiped with a vortex will have less flash (no flash) than a 11.5 inch (very very little). But I've personally seen the flash from a phantom out of an 11.5 inch barrel and it's like someone flicking the end of a cigarette (hardly distracting). I would say it's better than the suppression of an A2 from a 16 inch barrel. A vortex would do an even better job because it is even more effective at eliminating the flash. So. [b]maybe[/b] the flash will be more than the longer barrels, but the suppression will still be highly effective, not a huge signature for the opposition, and not at all distracting to to operator.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 11:08:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 11:13:23 AM EDT by RH33]
VSP, We use Eagle headsets with Motorola Saber radios. I started to try and explain how they work, but Botach (I know their evil, sorry) has a lot of information on the Aearo Combat Arms Earplugs. Now they are not perfect, but so far they work. I thought about trying to get the department to get suppressors for us, but just the thought of trying to explain why the good guys need a sound suppressor…Anyway, I also thought about the flash bangs, our guys with shotguns, bad guy firing and so on. The earplugs were a quick and cheap solution for a potentially major problem. My first choice would probably be the Peltor’s. Ray
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 3:59:44 AM EDT
RH33, Sounds interesting, I'll check it out. As for the suppressors, the only way the bean counters ever take anything seriously is when you play the liability card. When you present it to the command staff, stress the liability and permanent hearing loss disability potential. I don't know if your rural of urban, but we also used ours for taking out lights and sentry animals (if needed) VSP
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