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Posted: 9/4/2003 8:09:38 AM EDT
Has anyone here asked the ATF for a specific definition of "collapsable?"

I was hoping someone had some correspondence from them (the ATF) giving the specific definition.

I should add that the term "collapsable" is what I believe is at issue here. For example, if a stock length may be adjusted without tools it would seem to me that it is clearly "collapsable." But what if tools/gunsmithing are required to change the length? Is this still (officially) considered collapsable?

Also, the fixed tele-stocks I've seen offered by various manufacturers all seem to be fixed in the fully open position. Are there any offered that are fixed in positions other than fully open?
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 8:37:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mpweed: Also, the fixed tele-stocks I've seen offered by various manufacturers all seem to be fixed in the fully open position. Are there any offered that are fixed in positions other than fully open?
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theres a place thats over here in texas where they'll let you take any tele-stock and they'll legally pin it to however long you want it. It dosen't have to be pinned in the longest position. I've never actually been to their store, but they are at almost every gunshow in the DF/W area. I know that the place is the same place where my friend bought his eagle AR; which i THINK was K2, but i'm not totally sure, I'll have to ask my friend. i'll edit this post when i find out for sure who this company is..
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 8:48:02 AM EDT
I know a gunsmith here in PA that said that he could do the same thing. Said he would remove the parts that allow it to be collapsable (plunger?). Then he would drill and tap the buffer tube at each of the adjustment positions and put a screw in at the position I desired. If I wanted to change the length later on, I'd have to remove the screw, move the stock to the desired position, and put the screw back in. My only concern is knowing if this is considered good enough to comply with the law. In principle, this seems to be no different than stocks with spacers -- where you can change the length using tools to insert/remove spacers.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 8:57:46 AM EDT
From what I have heard anyone can "pin" a stock as long is it can NEVER be moved agian. As in use J.B. Weld. That's what im going to do with mine. :D
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 9:03:30 AM EDT
Why are stocks with spacers legal, then? Their lengths can be changed by adding/removing spacers. The key is that tools are required. This is why I think a definitive definition of "collapsable" is needed.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 9:12:15 AM EDT
oh, i see where you're going now[;)] yeah, i don't know the legal term of collapsible, but what I can tell you is that if that guys a reputable gun smith then there should be no problem. He should know the law, and the things he does will most likey conform to the laws. That being said, i've never heard of a pinned collapsible that could still be moved. with or without tools!! so i guess what i'm saying is... i don't know for sure [:I]
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 9:27:29 AM EDT
heres a texbook def. for collapsible, i dunno if its the same the alphabet govt. agencies go by though... straight out of The New Lexicon Webster's Dic. of the English language... collapsible- adj., made so as to fold up when not in use *this is for you latin/greek/or whatever pros* [fr. L. collabi (collapsus)- to fall together]
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 9:33:48 AM EDT
Klinger, it's interesting that the dictionary uses "folding" in the definition. Tele-stocks can't "fold." I know the language of the law mentions both "folding" and "telescoping" stocks it fails to clearly define either. This leaves the terms open to interpretation. It is the ATF interpretation (and reasons for the interpretation) that I would like to find out.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 9:49:47 AM EDT
I'd think there should be two different words used to describe this: One would be a COLLAPSABLE stock, as in those illegale for post-bans. The other should be ADJUSTABLE stock. Where tools, however minimal are required to adjust the size. you see, i'm pretty sure that the reason why collapasable stocks are illegal (besides the scary evil name) is because they fear that one can conceal a rifle with the collapsable stock, then instantly extend it and start shooting....after all, it isn't illegal to have NO STOCK AT ALL (this may not work on ARs, but would work on AKs, Cobrays etc) However extending it instantly is not possible if tools are required...So i believe there would be no reasonable reason to make that illegal. Do you guys get what i mean? I hope this made as much sense here as it did in my head. IMHO
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 9:56:10 AM EDT
Lockdon, that seems to be what my gunsmith is saying. The stock ceases to be "collapsable/telescoping" once you remove the plunger and screw it to the buffer tube. Now, if you want to change the length, you have to do some work (with tools). He says this is the same thing as having a stock configured to use spacers. What I was hoping for here was someone that had received an official position on this from the ATF.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 10:20:36 AM EDT
your not supposed to understand the wishings of the ATF if you did it then there wouldnt be any doubt or paranoia..now what good would that be? YOu do realize that Flash Hiders,Bayo lugs and collapsable stocks have killed millions! thats why there is a special ATF task force going to everyones homes and burning them down if they find one illegally put together on a post ban receiver.. Thats why on this board you can see the thousands of individuals every day that have had there homes burned down....(much sarcasm)
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 10:27:12 AM EDT
1ar4me, I agree that the provisions of the AWB are silly and non-sensical. But for the next 375 days, it is still the law. Just trying to make sure I know what the law is.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 11:33:00 AM EDT
Hey mpweed, can you give me the contact info for that gunsmith? jafager
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 11:53:11 AM EDT
There are several types of mechanically adjustable for length of pull gunstocks available. If you 'pin' the mechinism,The stock is no longer collapsable. It does not matter how much welding, gluing.... simply blocking the release will render it uncolapsable. A roll pin thoughtfully placed will block the collapsabality, and make short the repair next year.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 11:54:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon: "...after all, it isn't illegal to have NO STOCK AT ALL (this may not work on ARs, but would work on AKs, Cobrays etc) However extending it instantly is not possible if tools are required..."
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Um, "LOCKEDON" you might find that it IS illegal: "The term "short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches." (Code of Federal Regulations, Title 27, Volume 1, Parts 1 to 199) [url]http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.htm[/url] I believe this covers taking the stock off of a RIFLE that was manufactured & marketed WITH a stock on it. As far as a MAC-10 or OA-93 or the sort, I beleive they are sold as PISTOLS. I could be wrong...
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 1:02:12 PM EDT
Might be a pointless thought with the question as to definitions, but my understanding is that the collapsing stock would bring a rifle below the minimum length. What if someone were to make a collapsing stock, perhaps even with some of the same parts as currently available pre-ban style stocks, that simply is unable to go short enough? It would be nice to have a stock that could move a few inches but keep the rifle long enough. Otherwise there really is no point to a ban of collapsing/telescoping/folding stocks as long as the gun retains the necessary length. Perhaps as simple as making a new tube for existing tele-stocks that doesn't let them fully retract? Im not sure if it's possible or not, I haven't examined one closely. Might be worth getting an opinion from the ATF? -JR
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 1:27:03 PM EDT
O. K. My .02 I read somewhere that if a stock was ever collapsable, then it can not be pinned to make a non-collapsable. It must be made n/c in the factory. hmmmmmm, wonder if that means that as soon as its pulled out to be pinned, it becomes unlawful to pin. hmmmmmm
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 1:31:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By William_lxix:
Originally Posted By Lockedon: "...after all, it isn't illegal to have NO STOCK AT ALL (this may not work on ARs, but would work on AKs, Cobrays etc) However extending it instantly is not possible if tools are required..."
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Um, "LOCKEDON" you might find that it IS illegal: "The term "short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches." (Code of Federal Regulations, Title 27, Volume 1, Parts 1 to 199) [url]http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.htm[/url] I believe this covers taking the stock off of a RIFLE that was manufactured & marketed WITH a stock on it. As far as a MAC-10 or OA-93 or the sort, I beleive they are sold as PISTOLS. I could be wrong...
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The cobray i had was a post-ban carbine with a long barrel, and it came with the stock not attached...You attached it to the lower reciever by one nut, which could be removed without tools. All post-ban cobray carbines come like that....and just for the record, they suck! Mine broke after the first time out at the range, and i returned it. But thats off topic. Bottom line, you can remove the stock as long as the entire gun is at least 26" inches in length right? I can't find my measuring tape, but looking it right now, it appears to be 26" without the stock on.
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