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Posted: 8/3/2003 5:29:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2003 6:23:39 PM EDT by Black_Rifle]
Beginning to build my SHTF stash gun and need some pointers here.

So far I have a 16" chromed lined RRA M4gery from Pete-in-NH, fitted whit a Russian made Kobra Red Dot sight, also I managed to build a nice supply of 31 magazines (for NJ that is), have about 500 rounds of Federal XM193.

Put all that aside, what else do I need? I know there are many items I could 'buy' but money is an issue here, and I need to keep it simple. ie: Is a soft case necessary?, and how should I carry my loaded mags? Loaded magz? what about just leaving the ammo in the box and then just use a LULA ?. Do I need to mount a flash light on the gun?, do I need a forward grip for better control? etc, etc, etc...

This is just in case, as I hope it never happens.

BR

P.S I began creating a list, so here it goes and thank you for you input.
list updated as of 8/06/2003 Thanks for the input I see my weak points

So far the list goes like this:

Necessary Items:

  • Copy of the movie Red Dawn

  • Extra parts for your rifle
  • .
  • Get some military web gear carry 6 0r 9 of your mags loaded in the web gear along with your other "essentials"

  • Buy more ammo and stay in very good physical shape cause humpin all that kit is a bitch!

  • A good mid sized handgun and a solid rig to carry it in

  • I always have something not too far away....

  • The best rifle for a SHTF situation is one that you, personaly, are the most efficient with.

  • Take the time now to take a 3-5 day carbine school and learn how to run your rifle. Also this is a great way to learn what gear you have is shit and what works

  • Slap some MRE's in your BOB, and I would say pick up some Bandoleers

  • I have to agree on training

  • Quick Clot (you may end up getting shot and don't want to bleed to death)
  • First Aid Kit?
  • For more info, come over to the survival section
  • ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=1&f=123 Very interesting
  • If you're talking SHTF as in zombies are attacking you
  • That would be just pure fun, they move slowly and make perfect targets
  • What makes a gun WTSHTF ready" is YOU

  • Your mental attitude, proficiency with any weapon your level of physical fitness

  • Practice every chance you get


  • Unnecessary Items:
  • …you will see rambo wanna bees who get winded just getting their 14# rifles and their 40# overweight fat asses from the truck to the bench rest and whine about the mosquitoes,the humidity and the heat…

  • Couch potato wanna be Rambo's need not apply




  • Link Posted: 8/3/2003 5:34:40 PM EDT
    Ammunition... Or maybe an Accuwedge! [:D]
    Link Posted: 8/3/2003 5:42:32 PM EDT
    Don't forget to add a copy of the movie Red Dawn to your stash. If we do everything like them, we CAN defeat the communist aggressors.
    Link Posted: 8/3/2003 5:58:40 PM EDT
    Extra parts for your rifle. Glockdog Airborne!!
    Link Posted: 8/3/2003 6:20:56 PM EDT
    More ammo
    Link Posted: 8/3/2003 10:37:39 PM EDT
    A good mid sized handgun and a solid rig to carry it in. Glock 19/23 or something similar. As for your rifle you may want to up grade your optics. Adding a light is not a bad idea. I prefer Surefire always. Take the time now to take a 3-5 day carbine school and learn how to run your rifle. Also this is a great way to learn what gear you have is shit and what works. You will see how a light on your rifle can be a God sent. You also get to see what other guys are using and if it works or not. Taking a handgun class is a good idea too. A Camel Back or something like it is a good investment. I use mine all the time. Deturmine right now if the SHTF if your going mobile or bunkering down. My family has chosen to bunker. We have planed accordingly.
    Link Posted: 8/3/2003 10:59:58 PM EDT
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 5:40:17 AM EDT
    The best rifle for a SHTF situation is one that you, personaly, are the most efficient with. If you are a good shot with an AR15, use an AR15. If you are better with a Garand, get a Garand. If your weapon is an AK47, a bolt-action or whatever, as long as you are competent with it and can hit your target, then that is your SHTF rifle. A sidearm is always good to have too. [b]ArmaLiter[/b]
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 5:53:31 AM EDT
    Slap some MRE's in your BOB, and I would say pick up some Bandoleers, to carry that ammo while on the move and such. A Bayonet (if preban) or a knife that is sufficient. A broken shell extractor and a multi tool to use if you have to replace rifle parts. Just my .02
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 7:02:16 AM EDT
    [Last Edit: 8/4/2003 7:04:20 AM EDT by Forest]
    Originally Posted By Luckystiff: A good mid sized handgun and a solid rig to carry it in. Glock 19/23 or something similar. As for your rifle you may want to up grade your optics. Adding a light is not a bad idea. I prefer Surefire always. Take the time now to take a 3-5 day carbine school and learn how to run your rifle. Also this is a great way to learn what gear you have is shit and what works. You will see how a light on your rifle can be a God sent. You also get to see what other guys are using and if it works or not. Taking a handgun class is a good idea too. A Camel Back or something like it is a good investment. I use mine all the time.
    View Quote
    OUTSTANDING advice! Especially the part about the 3-5day carbine class. [i]Edited to add:[/i] I see you're in NJ - that means you can probably hit a Jeff Gonzalas course in DE over the next year - or if you don't mind a 5-6 hour trip to Pittsburg - PFDC is running their Carbine course again in Sept (13-14-15) (inexpensive but REALLY good).
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 7:03:49 AM EDT
    [Last Edit: 8/4/2003 7:04:28 AM EDT by blikbok]
    I have to agree on training. I think it was Jeff Cooper who said, "Having a rifle makes you a marksman like having a guitar makes you a musician." Good classes also have a nice way of building confidence with the equipment, and subduing the desire to trick out rifles more than they need.
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 7:11:34 AM EDT
    In a true SHTF scenario, you better have at least Gen 1 Night Vision or you won't make it through the first night. Other things you'll need: - Quick Clot (you may end up getting shot and don't want to bleed to death) - MRE's - A cantine of water - Fleece Blanket And of course a clean pair of underwear for when you piss your pants the first day.
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 9:26:21 AM EDT
    a more apt question may be "what makes a MAN wtshtf ready"?
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 12:45:32 PM EDT
    ya can never be totally prepared. but what sets some apart from others is a good atitude, good training, and good gear. Test your gear, teat yourself..For more info, come over to the survival section on here. Really good group we have over there, lots of links and good info.
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 1:17:06 PM EDT
    I could never figure out the use for a flashlight on a firearm. Seems real dumb to me, extra weight and it's a waste of money. You need batterys for the damn thing, and you can't use it without giving away your possition. Unless you have night vision goggles or NV weapon sight, and an IR filter on the flashlight... you don't need it. A standard CAR or M4gery side slung with a red dot and a laser sight + mags seems good enough.
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 1:24:22 PM EDT
    Originally Posted By JustL00king: I could never figure out the use for a flashlight on a firearm. Seems real dumb to me, extra weight and it's a waste of money. You need batterys for the damn thing, and you can't use it without giving away your possition. Unless you have night vision goggles or NV weapon sight, and an IR filter on the flashlight... you don't need it. A standard CAR or M4gery side slung with a red dot and a laser sight + mags seems good enough.
    View Quote
    WTF!! you would choose a laser over a weapons light?? [rolleyes] And if your light is giving away your position you're not using it correctly.
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 1:29:24 PM EDT
    Originally Posted By JustL00king: I could never figure out the use for a flashlight on a firearm. Seems real dumb to me, extra weight and it's a waste of money.
    View Quote
    Ya know you can always spot the guys w/o any formal training.... Go take a firearms training couse that includes night time exercies and try to run it w/o a light. How do you determine shoot/no shoot unless you can see the target? How do you shot the target unless you can see it? Especially give that according to the FBI 70% of shootings occur in low-light situations.
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 1:52:25 PM EDT
    Are you talking SHTF as in a shootout with the FBI, or are you talking SHTF as in the Internet stops working and trucks stop restocking your local Krogers? For the former, you need a white flag and a lawyer (and maybe a fire extinguisher). For the latter, you need a .22lr, a little ammo and a functional brain. If you're talking SHTF as in zombies are attacking you, then you need a M4 with a laser sight and lots of go-fast gadgets bolted on :D
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 2:20:10 PM EDT
    Originally Posted By Black_Rifle: ....fitted whit a Russian made Kobra Red Dot sight....
    View Quote
    Batteries? Please say you have iron sights!
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 2:37:19 PM EDT
    Most important to me is ammo. Lots of it. And alot of striper clips and bandoleers. When ammo runs out all you have is a fancy club. If you have a good weapon and alot of ammo you can then take what ever else you need from all those anti gun people.
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 6:25:45 PM EDT
    WTSHTF Ready Rifle: 1. Sighted in @ 200 yds with iron sights. Any configuration you can reliably engage targets with at 200 yards. Chromed, scoped, camo'd, plated, lasered,etc. etc dont mean poop! 2. A good sling. A M14 or old M1 sling is fine. Ductape it so it doesn't rattle. 3. Seven 30 rd reliable, tested magazines. 4. Web gear to carry the magazines. Not really part of the rifle system, but a good canteen full of water is worth more than a pistol and should be part of your web gear. Don't let these Rambo wannabees blow smoke up your kilt. Keep it simple.
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 6:49:37 PM EDT
    thats why I own enough fire arms and ammo for two people "my wife and I" to carry 2 rifles 2 handguns 1 shot gun and packed in a way thats compact so I can just bug out both of us.
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 7:36:11 PM EDT
    Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
    Originally Posted By Black_Rifle: ....fitted whit a Russian made Kobra Red Dot sight....
    View Quote
    Batteries? Please say you have iron sights!
    View Quote
    Well of course!!! [:D] I have an ARMS #40 as a back up, I am not the Energizer bunny, I will eventually run out of juice.
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 7:43:17 PM EDT
    flash lights are use full inside a building if you have a proper/mount flash light with enough candle power or lumens depending on your choice of light source. The light is not entended for use over long distances out side. Which would illuminate your position.
    Link Posted: 8/4/2003 8:47:21 PM EDT
    Reliability,accuracy and cheap enough ammo to be able to practice.
    Link Posted: 8/5/2003 7:07:01 AM EDT
    [Last Edit: 8/5/2003 7:58:22 AM EDT by Forest]
    Originally Posted By colt_5_5_6: The light is not entended for use over long distances out side. Which would illuminate your position.
    View Quote
    As does shooting a round - unless you've got a Vortex. Lights are useful outside as well. I went from being able to ID may target at 50 yards with only the Compact ACOG to over 100 yards with just a 6P using the P60 bulb. So I can engage a person with iron sights only at several times the distance at which he can fire effectively at me. You can't hit it if you can't see it. That is why proper training in the use of a light is so important. Proper use & technique reduce your chances of being a bullet magnet while greatly increasing your chances of stopping the threat first.
    Link Posted: 8/5/2003 7:42:55 AM EDT
    Originally Posted By ArmaLiter: The best rifle for a SHTF situation is one that you, personaly, are the most efficient with. If you are a good shot with an AR15, use an AR15. If you are better with a Garand, get a Garand. If your weapon is an AK47, a bolt-action or whatever, as long as you are competent with it and can hit your target, then that is your SHTF rifle. A sidearm is always good to have too. [b]ArmaLiter[/b]
    View Quote
    A-Men guys. It dosn't matter if you have access to a .22 pistol or your baby. It's all in the shooter.
    Link Posted: 8/5/2003 1:23:44 PM EDT
    Originally Posted By Black_Rifle:
    Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
    Originally Posted By Black_Rifle: ....fitted whit a Russian made Kobra Red Dot sight....
    View Quote
    Batteries? Please say you have iron sights!
    View Quote
    Well of course!!! [:D] I have an ARMS #40 as a back up, I am not the Energizer bunny, I will eventually run out of juice.
    View Quote
    Please post a pic with a Kobra and ARMS 40 I was under the impression that no rear sight would fit with a Kobra.
    Link Posted: 8/5/2003 1:58:54 PM EDT
    Originally Posted By DevL: Please post a pic with a Kobra and ARMS 40 I was under the impression that no rear sight would fit with a Kobra.
    View Quote
    They will fit - it just won't co-witness. Why go with the Cobra when you can get an EO Tech 552? Its a far better sight and it also runs on AAs - matter of fact it will run in NiMH rechargable AAs....
    Link Posted: 8/5/2003 6:24:26 PM EDT
    [Last Edit: 8/5/2003 6:25:24 PM EDT by Black_Rifle]
    Originally Posted By Forest:
    Originally Posted By DevL: Please post a pic with a Kobra and ARMS 40 I was under the impression that no rear sight would fit with a Kobra.
    View Quote
    They will fit - it just won't co-witness. Why go with the Cobra when you can get an EO Tech 552? Its a far better sight and it also runs on AAs - matter of fact it will run in NiMH rechargable AAs....
    View Quote
    Very well made (metal not plastic) runs about $100 [img]http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/6184armskobra1.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/6184armskobra4-med.jpg[/img]
    Link Posted: 8/5/2003 9:06:23 PM EDT
    Originally Posted By notack:
    Originally Posted By JustL00king: I could never figure out the use for a flashlight on a firearm. Seems real dumb to me, extra weight and it's a waste of money. You need batterys for the damn thing, and you can't use it without giving away your possition. Unless you have night vision goggles or NV weapon sight, and an IR filter on the flashlight... you don't need it. A standard CAR or M4gery side slung with a red dot and a laser sight + mags seems good enough.
    View Quote
    WTF!! you would choose a laser over a weapons light?? [rolleyes] And if your light is giving away your position you're not using it correctly.
    View Quote
    You turn on the flashlight at anytime in the dark you just showed me where you are. A laser, Nobody can see where it comes from unless they have NV or it's raining, foggy, or there is a lot of dust passing through the beam. It allows you to shoot accurately from the hip or just to know for a fact the bullet will hit them. Just putting that dot on someone can make them surrender without having to shoot.
    Originally Posted By Forest: Ya know you can always spot the guys w/o any formal training.... Go take a firearms training couse that includes night time exercies and try to run it w/o a light. How do you determine shoot/no shoot unless you can see the target? How do you shot the target unless you can see it? Especially give that according to the FBI 70% of shootings occur in low-light situations.
    View Quote
    Im wouldn't turn on a flashlight to look at someone, that will give away your possition to everyone else in the area. It gives them time to shoot you, you may scare them and cause them to shoot you. How do I determine to shoot or not? That's What NV with an IR illuminater is for. If they have a weapon and I believe my life or someone elses life is in danger, im going to drop them.
    Link Posted: 8/5/2003 9:17:35 PM EDT
    [Last Edit: 8/5/2003 9:19:53 PM EDT by JustL00king]
    Even in CQ, you turn on that a light it lets everyone know where you are. Outside or inside dosen't matter and for the people with night vision just a little spark lights up a whole area.
    Link Posted: 8/5/2003 10:15:04 PM EDT
    JustL00king, Your right and wrong. Go take a carbine class and you will learn the value of a light on the end of a rifle and how to use it. Nothing I say can convince you better than that. Have you ever heard of the concept of over powering light being a force option? On the NVD and IR issue. If our friend here had the money to purchase either of these items don't you think he would have better optics on his rifle? With this in mind it makes a lot of sence for our friend to use a light to ID targets before opening up. Hell he could be drawing down on you. Would you want him to ID his target before "Dropping him" or just blast away?
    Link Posted: 8/6/2003 6:51:27 AM EDT
    [Last Edit: 8/6/2003 10:36:22 AM EDT by Forest]
    Originally Posted By Black_Rifle: Very well made (metal not plastic) runs about $100
    View Quote
    All I can say is you get what you pay for. The EOTech can still operate with its screen broken - can the Cobra (I'll tell you now - it can't). If the Cobra gets covered in snow or mud you're going to have to stop and clean out the emmitter hole as well as wipe the lenses - with the EO Tech its just wipe and continue.
    You turn on the flashlight at anytime in the dark you just showed me where you are.
    View Quote
    Yep - that is why you MOVE after using the light. Like I said you need to be trained with the use of a light.
    A laser, Nobody can see where it comes from unless they have NV or it's raining, foggy, or there is a lot of dust passing through the beam.
    View Quote
    Bull$H!T ! Ever been downrange from a visible laser beam? Its VERY easy to see where its comming from - the laser is a very intense light. Oh yeah how are you going to ID your target? Laser sure won't do it. What will you do when you blast a friendly because you couldn't do a positive ID? But the IMPORTANT question is how do you see the target to put your laser dot on it? Its dark and the clothes the target is wearing blends in. Ya gotta SEE the target before you can shoot it.
    It allows you to shoot accurately from the hip or just to know for a fact the bullet will hit them.
    View Quote
    WTF are you Rambo? Watch too many hollywood movies? Who teaches people to 'shoot from the hip'? I know for a fact my bullet will hit because my sights are on the target.
    Just putting that dot on someone can make them surrender without having to shoot.
    View Quote
    Hmm putting 125 Lumens on them makes them cover their eyes because its too damn bright. I take away any capability they have to lock onto me. The dot just tells them now would be the best time to shoot. You want to bet your life that someone will be scared of a dot of light? I'd rather take away their ability to effectively fight.
    and for the people with night vision just a little spark lights up a whole area.
    View Quote
    Another good reason for light over a laser - a laser will pinpoint your location for those with NVG - a bright light will force NVG to shut down (again you've removed their vision).
    Link Posted: 8/6/2003 10:20:07 AM EDT
    [Last Edit: 8/6/2003 10:31:11 AM EDT by tac17]
    [b]"A laser, Nobody can see where it comes from unless they have NV or it's raining, foggy, or there is a lot of dust passing through the beam. It allows you to shoot accurately from the hip or just to know for a fact the bullet will hit them. Just putting that dot on someone can make them surrender without having to shoot."[/b] Assume you can't see them, which you can, and it isn't raining, foggy , or there isn't a lot of dust passing through the beam. How are you going to use them to engage a target from the hip at 30 yards? Isn't it going to be kinda hard to find that dot during all the excitement? Who has ever surrendered from having a red dot put on them? I have heard that said many times but no one can ever tell me when and where these surrenders have taken place. Lasers are fun to play with but I haven't had much luck out them in training.
    Link Posted: 8/6/2003 2:20:24 PM EDT
    If you have the $$$, then: Body army in a police/Blackhawk! style vest 4-6 loaded 30rd. magazines 2-4 loaded handgun magazines AR15 Handgun good sling for rifle good holster for handgun lights spare parts cleaning kit(s) Extra Ammo Then you need the survival gear like matches, MREs, water, etc. etc. But personally, I'd take a rem. 870, sling of buckshots and slugs, my AR, and my HK USP...
    Link Posted: 8/6/2003 4:38:11 PM EDT
    Well, others have eluded to the correct answer, so if you haven't figured it out yet. "What makes a gun WTSHTF ready" is YOU. No amount of accessories or gadgets will save your ass when and if the SHIT really hits the fan. Your mental attitude, proficiency with any weapon(from a club to a F-16), your level of physical fitness, and a fair amount of luck will decide if you survive a SHTF scenario. Not that I'm anti accessories mind you. But remember, you have to hump whatever you have with you, so you better choose wisely. Anything added onto the basic weapon should provide a SUBSTANTIAL improvement in either increased hit probability or to improve functioning to justify the logistics of carrying it around. At some point you'll need to re-supply whatever power source, special lubes or tools to keep this thing running with. If you can't it becomes dead weight. Which brings me to my next point. You must become proficient in the use and maintenance of the basic weapon before any accessory will help. Otherwise your setting yourself up for failure. To many people buy useless shit to hang onto, or replace original pieces of their weapons in search of better shot groups or reliability when what they really need is more trigger time with the basic weapon. So, do yourself a favor and field strip and clean your weapon until you know every piece and square inch of it, and how it works. Then buy all the ammo you can afford and don't hoard it all waiting for the STHTF. Practice with it every chance you get. Then you'll have a better understanding of what YOU "may" need accessory wise to improve YOUR odds, not what some gear company thinks you should have. I won't get into mental attitude and physical fitness, but suffice it to say that if you are lacking in either, you will have as we say, "a significant emotional event". Couch potato wanna be Rambo's need not apply. Wpns Man
    Link Posted: 8/6/2003 4:59:35 PM EDT
    Hey now, enough Rambo jokes here! ;)
    Link Posted: 8/6/2003 5:14:19 PM EDT
    The owner makes a WTSHTF weapon ready. Nothing else. After all, if and when it happens, everybody's gonna use what they got. Brains and balls, good equipment, and a better attitude makes the weapon ready. [>]:)]
    Link Posted: 8/6/2003 6:32:41 PM EDT
    Originally Posted By WpnsMan: Well, others have eluded to the correct answer, so if you haven't figured it out yet. "What makes a gun WTSHTF ready" is YOU. No amount of accessories or gadgets will save your ass when and if the SHIT really hits the fan. Your mental attitude, proficiency with any weapon(from a club to a F-16), your level of physical fitness, and a fair amount of luck will decide if you survive a SHTF scenario. Not that I'm anti accessories mind you. But remember, you have to hump whatever you have with you, so you better choose wisely. Anything added onto the basic weapon should provide a SUBSTANTIAL improvement in either increased hit probability or to improve functioning to justify the logistics of carrying it around. At some point you'll need to re-supply whatever power source, special lubes or tools to keep this thing running with. If you can't it becomes dead weight. Which brings me to my next point. You must become proficient in the use and maintenance of the basic weapon before any accessory will help. Otherwise your setting yourself up for failure. To many people buy useless shit to hang onto, or replace original pieces of their weapons in search of better shot groups or reliability when what they really need is more trigger time with the basic weapon. So, do yourself a favor and field strip and clean your weapon until you know every piece and square inch of it, and how it works. Then buy all the ammo you can afford and don't hoard it all waiting for the STHTF. Practice with it every chance you get. Then you'll have a better understanding of what YOU "may" need accessory wise to improve YOUR odds, not what some gear company thinks you should have. I won't get into mental attitude and physical fitness, but suffice it to say that if you are lacking in either, you will have as we say, "a significant emotional event". Couch potato wanna be Rambo's need not apply. Wpns Man
    View Quote
    Your post makes a lot of sense to me, I believe that a big deal of simplicity mixed with a lot of practice, mental and physical preparation and survival skills should go a long way. Simply I believe that there is no way to really predict the WTSHTF case (Alphabet agencies, earthquakes, zombies walking the streets) all we can do is fantasy and hope we are in good shape so we may last a few more days. I thank you all for posting your ideas and contributing valuable information. By the way...HAVE YOU HUGGED YOUR AR TODAY???
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