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Posted: 7/14/2003 3:26:46 PM EDT
This thing lloks nifty.
http://www.bushmasterfirearms.com/shopping/m17s/

Does anyone own one??

I am just wondering if looks is the only thing it has.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 4:29:23 PM EDT
Damn. DAMN. I think I found my next project. What are the reviews on this rifle? Has anyone with a Gun Tests subscription seen a write-up on this? I also want to know if its all looks and no function.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 5:26:24 PM EDT
I know that the brithish use it instead of the M-16 and they say it has less failures than an M-16.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 5:33:43 PM EDT
I was under the impression that the Brits use the SA-80 with a SUSAT sight. I was also under the impression that the Brits did not like it. The M17 is a different animal, but I know nothing about that model.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 6:18:37 PM EDT
I think the Bushy bullpup is as ugly as sin. Don't know about performance though.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 6:21:53 PM EDT
The M17S is a bullpup type rifle offered by bushmaster since before the 1994 AW ban. It uses an AR18 style gas system (like the brits terrible SA-80) which is inclosed under the full lenth receiver. It uses M16 mags, and has no real backup sights, so you'll need optics. I am a firm beleiver in the bullpup rifle concept, but I was very disappointed with my M17s and got rid of it. KurtsKustom (in the Industry forums on this site i think) has done some awsome work developing customers' rifles into well thought-out machines, complete with back-up iron sights, light rails, verticle grip rails, (handguards get HOT) and other nice doo-dads that Bushmaster should have done since they first offered it IMHO. Mine shot very well (1.5moa with scope) but had some reliability problems. (I have never heard of ANYONE having reliability problems with other M17s rifles though.) Tex78
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 7:44:31 PM EDT
I actually think the Brits have come to realize the SA80 as a white elephant. There were monumental developemental problems which weren't corrected when it was adopted. It was plagued with many and varying problems, and had to have vast quantities of additional money dumped into it to get it to a reliable weapons platform. My understanding is that it is a fairly decent weapon now, but has had so much money dumped into it, that they have to use it. However, my reading has been limited to a few articles, so my info may be ??????????? Doc
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 9:22:07 PM EDT
The SA80 works fine for me! On Ghost Recon, that is. Jason
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 5:03:39 AM EDT
I have one and I really love it. It does have backup sights, but they are ONLY that backup, it has the integrated rail to mount a red dot. (The Capital Police use them to Guard the Capital Building and other assignments.) I brought mine out the other day and it is pretty darn accurate. I think it is so much fun. The recoil is nonexistant so it make followup shot really fast. I only had one FTE and that has been it for relaibility. It is a cinch to clean and is definately a fun gun to shoot.
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 5:31:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 5:54:09 AM EDT
NICE RIFLE!!! I like the way you set that up. Guess I will have to start looking for a bottom rail. where did you get that? How is it attached?
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 3:40:32 PM EDT
No problems with mine. [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/047710.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 8:28:17 PM EDT
Hey Southern_Raider, I [b]REALLY[/b] looovveee your set up.... Can you perhaps share all that you've done to it/added? What'd you do with your carry handle? Very very nice!!!
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 3:15:59 AM EDT
Thanks, I've had it up for sale for a while to help fund an ACOG if anyone is interested. [naughty] I added a Falcon Industries handguard rail to the underside along with a vertical grip. The carry handle was removed and replaced with a longer section of the same rail. I simply cut off the top of the cocking handle and replaced the bolt with a knob on a threaded shaft that gives a MAC like look.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 5:05:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 5:09:56 AM EDT
[center][b][size=3]I've seen it in movies TOO - cool gun, er, weapon!!![/center][/b][/size=3]
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 6:47:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2003 6:59:36 PM EDT by Mack556]
JUNK But hey, buy whatever turns you on. FACT: the Brit SAS - uses M16 the Aussie SAS - uses M16 the US SOF - uses M16 Are we not to trust these serious operators? What about this is so hard to understand? The M17 = Commerical POS The AUG = POS The SA80 = POS The HK36 = a little better POS Mack
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 9:15:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2003 9:17:17 PM EDT by 2IDdoc]
So Mack556, what was it that made all the POS rifles you mentioned pieces of $hit? Just don't like bullpups or something? Have you fired all the weapons you mentioned? If so, much props, I sure haven't. Just curious. Edited to add, My father in law is gonna get an m17. Should I warn him about something?
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 9:24:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2003 11:34:53 PM EDT by _DR]
Originally Posted By Mack556: JUNK But hey, buy whatever turns you on. FACT: the Brit SAS - uses M16 the Aussie SAS - uses M16 the US SOF - uses M16 Are we not to trust these serious operators? What about this is so hard to understand? The M17 = Commerical POS The AUG = POS The SA80 = POS The HK36 = a little better POS Mack
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Hey Mack, have you ever actually even fired, much less qualified on a Steyr Aug, SA80 or Heckler & Koch G36? From your view of them it seems unlikely......
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 10:55:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mack556: What about this is so hard to understand? The M17 = Commerical POS The AUG = POS The SA80 = POS The HK36 = a little better POS Mack
View Quote
dude, WHAT THE F*CK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?????? People who don't know $hit about guns like you don't belong on this forum. I'm an AR fan all the way, but having owned and fired Styer Augs, i'm convinced that they can take lightyears worth of circles around most ARs....and H&K??? All i can say is do your homework before insulting other peoples toys.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 5:32:04 AM EDT
We (Customs - when there still was one) issued Styer AUG's. I've shot the hell out of them, and I hate them. But their functionality and reliability is outstanding. I hated ours because of the following: 1. The three shot burst trigger (which, for those of you that don't know this) is not really a traditional select fire function. If you pull the trigger a little it shoots one round. If you pull it farther it shoots a three (or so) round burst. The design sucks - to me. 2. They are not ambidextrous. Hand your right hand set up AUG to a lefty (preferably a supervisor) and have him squeeze a group. Then take him to the dentist because he'll need to have three 5.56 shell cases surgically removed from his mouth. Where his teeth used to be. That means that in a fight, if your gun goes down and you have to pick up somebody elses (which I have to admint - never came up) you better hope he/she was right handed (in my case) too. The problem for me that DID come up was that I trained using the weapon ambidextrously, in that (for example) if I was turning a right hand corner in a door way entry, I carried the weapon "south paw" to get it throught the foor and on target as quickly as possible. That takes a LOT of getting used to (it feels like shit at first), but it worked for me. You can't do that with a bull pup, at least not an AUG. And I'm not bashing them - not at all! It's just stuff to think about, depending on how you train, and what you do with your weapons.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 5:41:01 AM EDT
Apparently MUck556 has rifle envy. FED-up makes some very good points about practicality though. I personally do not use this weapon (my Bullpup) as an entry weapon, that is what the AR's are for (IMO) I bought it becasue I liked the look, It was a Bushmaster, and I had great experience with their AR-15s, and it was different. Have still yet to see another in a shop. As for reliablity, havent had any problems with mine. It is very very comfortable to shoot, and shoulders quick and easy. The BU sights leave a little to be desired, but they ARE there and are jsut that, BU. It shoots like a friggin champ day after day, and is accurate as hell. People like mUck556 just have nothing better to do than start a p1ssing contest, and this is better than this war, Who needs it. I like mine and the original post asked what those that had them thought of them and how they were to shoot, etc. It is a Bushmaster, You cant go wrong!!
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 6:41:11 AM EDT
While we are on the topic of .223 bullpups; has anyone had any experience with the Bushmaster bullpup conversion kit for the mini-14? it's in their catalog for $99 and looks very cool when installed, but appears to be all composite or plastic, including front sights, and opens like a suitcase. I was just curious to see if anybody out there had experiences with one of these animals. Thanks
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 6:50:53 AM EDT
Mine functioned well. The mag well was tight, and wouldn't let mags drop free. The foregrip would heat up (burn hand, ow) with rapid fire. I just used mine as a down payment on an AR - Bushy 16" A2 with an AK style brake. I know where you could get a used one fairly cheap.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 7:29:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 7:53:55 AM EDT
My gunsmith took a look at it, first time he ever saw one before, and he said the action was AR-180 like.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 2:45:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon:
Originally Posted By Mack556: What about this is so hard to understand? The M17 = Commerical POS The AUG = POS The SA80 = POS The HK36 = a little better POS Mack
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dude, WHAT THE F*CK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?????? People who don't know $hit about guns like you don't belong on this forum. I'm an AR fan all the way, but having owned and fired Styer Augs, i'm convinced that they can take lightyears worth of circles around most ARs....and H&K??? All i can say is do your homework before insulting other peoples toys.
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Sorry if I offended anyone. I should have made clear that I was expressing a personal opinion and should have used more PC language. As I get older I have delevloped a preference for weapons systems that have proven themselves to me over time. However, I have spend many enjoyable years trying many different firearms, and this is not a bad thing. It is just that now I find myself graviating to my favorites. Nowdays I would rather have multiple's of a type than one of these and one of those. Anyway, if you have a desire to own a certain type of firearm then by all means do so. Gaining knowledge is never a bad thing and if you buy wisely you should not lose money. I will retract on the AUG, I have experience with two of these in full auto. They are not too bad just not quite as reliable as I would like. As mentioned above they have a somewhat novel fire control system. My experience with the M17 is limted to one example and many years ago.I don't like the feel of it and don't think much of the design. It was finky about mags and ammo. Might have just been a lemon and again this was many, many years ago so newer ones might be better. I have never fired a SA80 but have handled one. Have also heard a lot of bad things about it through the grapevine. Maybe the 200,000 or so A2's which the Brits just spent approx. $625 (more than a new M4) a piece to have HK modify are better. Still due for replacment in a few years. HK36, handled it and am underwhelmed. I can not understand why HK has such a problem with ergonomics after all the years they have been in business. I am not a fan of bullpups, I train to fire from my off side and from somewhat different positions. This is more difficult if not impossible to do with a bullpup design. In closing, I would like to remind everyone once again, that I find it very interesting that the 'fast movers' from countries with widespread issue of bullpups go into battle with M16 series weapons. Make from this what you will. Mack
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 9:59:38 PM EDT
Mack, i'm really sorry i lost my cool there.... I take back all the mean things i said. Can we still be friends? -Lockedon
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 2:31:57 AM EDT
Noone wants you to be PC Mack.I don't know why you thought that. Some of us were just looking for a better explaination. I plan on telling my father in law about the feedback on this thread before he buys his m17. I wanted to hear positive and negative. That's why I asked. Thanks for the detailed answer. Much appreciated. 2IDdoc out.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 3:27:40 AM EDT
Actually it does have a gas system... That's how it unlocks and kicks the bolt back. If you look at Bushies site, it supposedly has a s/s gas tube and a self cleaning piston, so no gas system maintenance is required. The front of the bolt locks into the reciever much like an AR
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 7:08:55 PM EDT
I wonder what an M17S would be like if it was cut down to a 16" barrel, carbine length. Would it be under the mininum allowable length for a long arm? Sure would be handy for vehicle crewmen and CQB.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 3:53:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By _DR: I wonder what an M17S would be like if it was cut down to a 16" barrel, carbine length. Would it be under the mininum allowable length for a long arm? Sure would be handy for vehicle crewmen and CQB.
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Yes, I believe, its overall length would be under the federal minimum - 21.5" barrel oal = 30", 16" oal = 24.6".
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 4:55:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2003 4:56:55 PM EDT by leadfoot]
Lion_Dog, I didn't believe that the OAL was dependent upon the barrel length. I got this information from "The Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618" - ATF website. (8) The term "short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Because the rifle is 30" in length you could cut off 4" off the barrel. I would cut no more than 3 1/2" off the barrel so the length is slightly more then the min. requirement. This is the CYA policy. So you'll end up with a 26.5" rifle with a 18" barrel.
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