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Posted: 10/10/2002 7:13:46 PM EDT
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I've been lusting after an AR-15 for a few years, and I think I'm close to being ready to get my first (just don't tell my wife it will be a "first"!). I had originally planned to buy a shorty or M4 style model (was leaning towards Bushmaster). But I've just recently been introduced to the idea of possibly building the rifle myself. While I'm not an "enjoy building more than shooting" type, I think I would still enjoy the process, and would get to learn the inner workings of the gun (plus save some money), though I still have not yet ruled out buying a complete gun. I have a several questions I was hoping to get some insight on... 1) At a local gun shop, I saw a Colt M4 that I liked a lot, and the price was $1,049. I guess you pay for the Colt name, but is that a decent price otherwise? The only thing that seemed odd about this rifle was the finish of the barrel... rather than being the matte black finish that seems to be most common, it was sort of a "high gloss enamel" finish. What's up with that? 2) At this same shop, I also inquired about buying a stripped lower (if I go the build route). He had a Colt receiver, and was asking $299 but said he would go down to $249. That seemed VERY expensive to me! (yes, it was indeed a stripped receiver... just the shell, no other parts). I asked if he could order a Bushmaster and how much it would cost... he said about $100 less, but that they were hard to find right now. True? 3) If I have no experience with AR-15s, should I attempt to build my own at this point, or would I be better off buying an off-the-shelf model to start out with? 4) If I decide to build a rifle, I was thinking of getting a Bushmaster lower, and ordering the kit from J&T. Good decision? 5) If I decide to buy a complete rifle, would the Bushmaster be a good choice? Or would the Colt be better? I've seen a few references to Colts using non-standard parts (particularly in the trigger group)... is this a problem? Thanks! --Mike |
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Since it is your first I would suggest your learning curve not be expensive. I know a bit about ARs & I still have no need to build one. My two ARs are Colt & Armalite. Both are great & neither has ever jammed. IMO the extra $50-100 for the Colt is worth the extra. |
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Mike, I think Bob and Sancho have nailed it. At $1,049 my hunch is that the Colt is a post-ban M4 w/muzzle brake. If it is a pre-ban then it is a steal! If you shop around, you should be able to get a pre-ban Colt for $1,200 - $1,300, maybe less and modify it to fit your needs with every "evil" feature you want. I always suggest private transfer if legal in your state. There is nothing wrong with a BM. Do your homework and get the rifle that fits your budget and meets your requirements. There is lots of help for you on this board. |
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He, he, he...a year and a half ago, got a Pre-Ban Colt R6601 for $1000. Came with 1446 rounds of ammo, .30 ammo can, 2 5/20 Colt Mags, which I sold for $65, 2 pre-ban 30 rd OK mags as new, cleaning kit, SKS case (put my SKS in it) aftermarket sling, owner's manual, but no box--dang it. Sold the upper for $485, put on the complete Colt 20" A2 1/7 pre-ban upper, complete with bayonet lug and A2 Compensator. Was pre drilled for standard front take down pin, which I installed in about 15 mins, from parts I already had. |
Total non-issue. It has absolutely NO bearing whatsoever on the guns accuracy or function. |
| Yes, no accuracy problems with the non-milspec pins. However, you might have to pay more for replacement parts from Colt. You might also need adaptors to fit different receivers to the Colt ones. Milspec parts are cheaper, but how important is that to you. How important would it be in the long run? |
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To get what you want (some hands on building) and still have "factory" function I have a suggestion. The upper has VERY close tolerances and is easily messed up by the amature. Buy a barreled upper from someone. I chose Colt and am having the barrel and my FF RAS put on by someone else. You can however buy a Preban Colt M4 upper in complete form. Then buy a stripped RRA or Bushmaster lower. I chose a preban never fired Bushmaster lower off a complete rifle and took out all the parts so I in effect got a $1200 stripped lower but it was NIB and never fired. Going post ban will be much less. Now you can pick your parts like custom trigger, regular or ambi safety controls, etc. Buy the small parts like mag release assembly, bolt catch, and every other pin, screw and spring from Bushmaster. Also pick what stock you want (A2, A1, fixed tele stock, etc) and you can install that too. The lower parts are very easy to install and the stock is a bit harder to do correctly but if you mess up you can have a gunsmith redo it and it wont affect your rifle at all after its fixed. My personal Colt/Bushmaster hybrid is coming along quite well and I have enjoyed the process of getting all the parts I want and tinkering with the lower. I also suggest buying a pre ban Colt upper and having it sent to Kurt at KKF on the industry board and have one of his A2 flash suppressor look a like brakes put on and he will grind off the bayonet lugs to make the upper preban compliant. You get the genuine Colt M4 features like the feed ramps, 1/7 twist etc. and the ability to use heavy rounds like the 75 and 77 grain rounds our special forces are currently using plus you get a near mil spec lower to mount it too. What could be better? |
Ok, I'll bite. Where are you seeing pre-ban M4's for this kind of money (or were you referring to Colt rifles in general)? I've seen people ask darn near that much for POST-ban gear, pre-ban stuff looks to be around $2000. I admit I usually stick to licensed dealers and haven't paid much attention to private transfers but if the dealers get that much, I would think that individuals wouldn't dip their prices down *that* far... Of course I also have to admit that I'm fairly new to shooting and I'd be nervous about ending up stuck with bogus or illegal hardware with no brick&mortar business to point the finger at. |
| You can find preban rifles from people for around $1100 to $1600. These are usaully their personal rifles and have been used quite a bit. Most dealers, and private owners, who sell for $2000 or more are guaranteeing the rifle to be 95% new or higher. Also, most dealers selling prebans will inspect, clean, refurbish, and test the prebans they sell. If you find a dealer selling a preban for more than $2000 that is all dinged up, forget it. You would be better off buying from someone off these boards or from a want ad. If you are a new shooter, get the nice clean ones from a dealer (like I did with my preban). If you are experienced with AR's, then buy one from someone and refurbish it yourself. And, to be honest, most of these rifles will not need any work at all. AR lovers treat their rifles like their own children, often times better. |
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Greatnw, I was referring to Colt pre-bans in general and not M4's in particular. A lot of it depends upon your area of the country. Last year, I got a deal, privately, on an R6601 that is almost a perfect match for the deal Sancho lists in his post. The rifle was LNIB. It turned out that I knew the original dealer and the seller. I paid $1,300 and got a new Leupold scope to boot and two Colt 5-round mags with a bunch of other stuff. I sold the Scope and and 5-round mags and ended up with a total outlay of $1,050 for the rifle, one new Adventureline 30-round, two new DPMS 30-round teflons, three new 20-round Colts, 1,400 rounds of ammunition and a new tactical case. The point is that if you know what you are looking for then a private sale is almost always the way to go. If you are an inexperienced buyer then as Knightone suggests, a reputable dealer might be the best bet for some folks. |
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While I wouldn't mind having a pre-ban, it's not a requirement for me. However, I did take a look at my local paper's classifieds and found a pre-ban Colt "Lightweight Sporter" for $1,200. The seller said he's only fired about 20 rounds, and the rifle has sat unused for quite some time (he bought it in 1989). If it's is still available on Monday, I'll probably try to go see it. I'm still considering the Colt M4 (post-ban) at the local gun shop for $1,049, and am also looking at a Bushmaster M4-style (with A4 upper) for $909 and an Olympic Arms M4-style (A2 upper, I think) for $769. Unfortunately, the latter two are from a different shop that doesn't actually have them in stock, so I can't touch and feel before making a decision. And, of course, I still have the option of building a kit gun for about $550 - $600. Decisions, decisions. It would be much easier if I had more experience with AR-15s, but forums like these are the next best thing! --Mike |
How Important try to find the Non-standard parts! in an emergency if you do not have spare's on hand you have to order standard parts are everywhere. eather way I have a parts drawer with lower spare parts. BUT if you bought a good rifle then it problably won't break. |
| If you have a little extra cash and want to put together a nice rifle I'd go with the colt lower. You will no doubt get it back on the resale. If you don't have the tools, knowledge and time have a dealer get you a fully assembled lower from R guns. Buy an upper fully assembled from one of the many suppliers in the industry and push two pins and your ready to go. I've use parts and receivers from colt,bushmaster,Oly,Essential and Dpms. Barrels and uppers can be had from Oly,Bushy,and colt from parts dealers. If this is your first attempt at putting together a rifle I suggest you get a complete upper with bolt carrier and all from one supplier; that way if you have any problems you can just send the upper assembley back to them for service. good luck |
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Many thanks for all the responses. At this point, I'm leaning heavily towards buying the new post-ban Colt M4. I'm going to try and go look at it again tomorrow, and may even buy it then. One thing I'm wondering about... what are my sight options with this rifle? It has a removable carry handle/rear sight, and I'm assuming I can mount a scope or dot to this same rail. But then, I no longer have any iron sights for "backup", right? I guess I could mount to the top of the handle (I think I've seen pictures of this), but having such a high mounting position would make shooting at varying ranges difficult, no? Also, if I remove the handle and mount the scope or dot to the upper, wouldn't the front sight get in the way? Or is it easily removed too? --Mike |
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The front sight is not easily removable. It cannot remain removed wither, as it acts as the gas block for the rifle. It would have to be replaced with a new gas block either with a removable front site or one that flips up. If you mount a scope to the rail itself, the front sight will interfere. Companies such as GG&G and A.R.M.S. make high mounts for scopes to mount on flattop AR's. With a red dot, most people like the iron sights to act as "witness" sights to confirm dot position or act as backups in the event of optics failure. You can also get a rear flip-up sight from the companies I mentioned before to take the place of the one in the carry handle. This is often the ideal set-up for CQB. The above mentioned high scope mounts will often have a see-through funtion under the rings so you can use the iron sights. As far as mounting a scope on the carry handle, they make mounts for that too. These will most likely also have a see-through slot for the iron sights to be used. If you look at pictures of military issue M16's and M4's, you will see set-ups such as those I've mentioned. Any of those will work as long as they work for you. Go with whichever one functions best for your purposes and tastes. Hope this helps and have fun shooting! |
| One more thing, the scope mounted on the top of the scope will make a difference. But you should also remember, the iron sights are already more than an inch higher than the bore already. If you make adjustments for the range which you will normally shoot, it should not be a problem. Once you get used to it, you will "instinctively be able to make rapid adjustments in the field by compensating your shots. Most people do the same with iron sights. The better you get to know your rifle, the easier it will be for you to determine shot placements. |
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mcaswell: Now, to answer your questions in sequence: 1) On the postban Colt M4s I've seen, the barrel did indeed appear to be painted. Ugly, and didn't look anything like a mil-spec phosphated finish. Wouldn't pay $1000+ for one when an equivalent Bushmaster runs $889. Colt expects folks to pay more for their name, but their quality doesn't justify it IMHO. 2) Stripped lowers should run you anywhere from $99 to $200, depending on mfr. I wouldn't pay the $249 he's asking for the Colt when you can get a *complete* Bushy or RRA lower for about that. 3) Guess I'll be the voice of dissent here, but I'd say BUILD! I did it for my first AR (and 4 more since), and while there was a learning curve, it helped me learn a LOT about how the gun functions. These things are like an erector set and can easily be built in an evening; much quicker if you're just installing the lower receiver parts and not barreling, installing iron sights, staking carrier key, etc. There are books and web sites that will step you through the process; it's pretty much "follow the bouncing ball". It IS addictive, though. ;-) 4) I've built all my guns on BM receivers. A buddy of mine built on an Oly and it turned out fine. I've also seen good quality from Rock River Arms. The BM stripped lower + JT kit would be fine, but I'd pay the upgrade fee and get the chrome-lined barrel if JT still offers that option. 5) You can't do better than BM for an off-the-shelf gun. As far as commercial offerings go, they're as close to Mil-Spec as possible - much moreso than Colt's postban guns! And a BM will usually run a couple hundred bucks less than an equivalent Colt, which also helps. Hope I've helped. Good luck in your quest, and LMK if I can answer any more questions! |
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shooter521, Thanks for all the helpful info. To be completely honest, I am really lusting after that Colt. In fact, I was almost certain that I would end up buying it today. But now I am reconsidering the build option (around $700 vs. $1100). The fact that I am taking my time with this decision is fairly remarkable, considering that I am generally an "instant gratification" person who usually rushes in to buying stuff. BTW, the "glossy finish" on the Colt M4 barrel was actually a heavy coat of oil. Once wiped clean, the barrel looked normal. I am also still considering an off-the-shelf Bushmaster (and maybe even other brands). The only problem is that where I live, there are very few off-the-shelf AR's available. The shop that has the M4 also has a few new 20" Armalites and a pricey pre-ban, but that's about it. Other shops have said that they would be happy to order whatever I wanted, but I like to do the touch and feel thing first, so I'd prefer to pick something that was in stock. One shop I called today said they have a 20" Colt, and a Bushmaster Shorty (the basic model with A2 stock and no brake). I got a little excited at first, but had to call in a forklift to pick my jaw up off the floor when he told me the asking price... $950! I felt like screaming "rape". After doing a little research, I called him back and politely explained that this model appeared to have a list price of $799 and could be found even cheaper via online merchants, quickly explaining that I would not expect him to match those prices, but that $150 over LIST price seemed a bit excessive. He still got a little aggravated, and said he would call me back. Never did. --Mike |
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>Thanks for all the helpful info. You're welcome! :-) > But now I am reconsidering the build option > (around $700 vs. $1100). If you just want a weekend shooter or a "gravel pit gun", you can build for about $550!! But for serious social purposes, drop a little more cash and get a good chrome-lined barrel with M16 chamber. I recommend Bushmaster or RRA, or a Colt barrel if you can find a deal. Probably want to stick with 1x9 twist, rather than the faster (but Mil-spec) 1x7. >The only problem is that where I live, there > are very few off-the-shelf AR's available. All the more reason to build! You can get *exactly* what you want, regardless of who stocks what locally. Also, how 'bout waiting for a gun show to come around? Would expose you to more dealers/guns/parts in one place. > He still got a little aggravated, and said he > would call me back. Never did. If you want an off-the-shelf gun, go touch and feel at your (rampantly overpriced) local dealers... then get on gunsamerica.com and find the model you like. Have a local FFL receive it for you (Shotgun News publishes a list of FFLs who will do this, arranged by state, and sells it for a few bucks) and there ya go. |
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Thanks again for the info. I ended up buying a used Bushmaster M4gery, and should have it in a few weeks. I REALLY was in love with that Colt, but I just couldn't bring myself to spend that much money on one gun (even if it's worth it), especially being an AR newbie. I could have saved a little money with a kit gun (and learned about the rifle in the process of building), but perhaps I'll do that next time. :-) --Mike |
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