Posted: 1/8/2017 11:32:42 PM EDT
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Try to keep this short...
Built an upper with: 14.5 Gunner Aero upper CMT Tactical combat flash comp (Z-Comp) BCM GB Spikes gas tube Midwest 12.5 G3 Mlok rail AIM BCG Burris MTAC 1-4 with the newer Ballistic AR reticle Midwest QD mount All carefully put together, properly, barrel torque ,optic stuff blue Loctite, Etc. (Have done a few before with no issues) 55gr .223 PMC Bronze and .223 55gr AE, Yes I know, far from quality match ammo. Shooting it at 25yds on 1x or 4x and holes are touching each other or stacking. Shooting it at 100yrds and one shot will be "close" to bullseye, next shot 3-4" right, next 3-4" left, next shot "close" to bulleseye and on and on... I'm not a great shot but I'm at least 50-75% better than those results. I shot 2 other uppers I have, one 16" carbine gas 1/7 with fixed 5x burris AR536 and one 14.5" carbine gas 1/7 with 1-4 Burris Fullfield Tac-30. Both of these I could shoot 1-1.5" groups on or very close to bullseye. So I know I had the capability of shooting not terrible today. I shot about 50-60rds total thru the Faxon before running out of daylight. Driving me nuts I didn't get better results. SO... Is it ME shooting bad? (I hope so!) Does the barrel not like this ammo, weight bullet, etc? Does the barrel need some break in time? Just a bad combination of parts all together? Is it ME shooting bad? (Very possible!) I know, you guys can't answer any of this I just know I won't be able to get this off my mind until I get it worked out. On the positive side, this upper "handles" like a dream. Balances better than anything else I have and "feels" so much lighter than the gov profile 14.5 I have. With the scope/mount removed and a lightweight T1 style red dot it is stupid light! I can't wait to get more time with it! Will post future results... |
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To start, these are NOT the results we expect or will accept.
Is it ME shooting bad? (I hope so!) -Not likely, if you are a decent shooter. Does the barrel not like this ammo, weight bullet, etc? -Possible, but unlikely. Your explanation points to a mechanical issue outside the barrel. Does the barrel need some break in time? -No. Just a bad combination of parts all together? -Perhaps, but likely an assembly issue. Is it ME shooting bad? (Very possible!) -No. It is highly unusual for a weapon to thrown rounds consistently on a horizontal plane. As such, we have a few questions to help us work to determine any issues. 1. Is the barrel completely free-floated? Is the gas block touching the rail in any form static? What about when a load is put on the rail? (If the rail hits any part of the barrel) rounds can go nearly anywhere). 2. What torque was the barrel nut used to mount the barrel? (Low torque is not enough pressure to compress the receiver and provide solid accuracy) 3. Is the gas tube lined up dead center? (Carrier/rail can impact the gas tube or put pressure on it deflecting rounds). 4. If/How was the weapon checked for headspace? 5. How was the muzzle device welded to the barrel? Done by someone reputable? (We've seen pins pushed in deforming rifling, welds that got too hot and deformed metal, etc). Reply here or contact me via my direct e-mail for fastest service. |
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All the above checks out But I will triple check.
My gut is telling me it is me not used to that scope. It was really cold and I was having issues with my eyes Clouding up and having trouble focusing on the tiny center dot. Maybe I just had "Stormtrooper" syndrome! Will shoot more and work on a solution. Thanks for the therapy session. |
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Update
Per email convo with Nathan I rebuilt the upper and inspected everything. I could not find anything that MY NON-Gunsmith eyes could see. Did a lot of comparing to some other uppers I have, nothing stood out. Did some testing tonight. At this point I don't know what the cause is but there is definitely something not right. Shot at an indoor 25yrd range. I thought since the scope and mount are also new maybe they were to blame. Put that set up on another upper and it grouped exceptionally well. Shot 60 rds to be sure. I put a known good 1-4x and mount on the problem upper and had the same poor accuracy results, even at 25 yrds. The BEST 10rd group was about 3.5"-4.5", again at 25 yrds. This is after about 80 rnds. Most groups were worse than 5+ inches. So, I have already ordered another 14.5 Gunner barrel. Going to mount it and test it out. If it performs the same I plan to put them both on an upper that has proven parts as opposed to the all new collection of parts I have on the upper now. I would guess at that point that should isolate the barrel(s) from something else causing the problem. Is it possible for an upper receiver to be out of spec or damaged cause this? If anyone has any other ideas PLEASE let me know. |
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Quoted:
Update Per email convo with Nathan I rebuilt the upper and inspected everything. I could not find anything that MY NON-Gunsmith eyes could see. Did a lot of comparing to some other uppers I have, nothing stood out. Did some testing tonight. At this point I don't know what the cause is but there is definitely something not right. Shot at an indoor 25yrd range. I thought since the scope and mount are also new maybe they were to blame. Put that set up on another upper and it grouped exceptionally well. Shot 60 rds to be sure. I put a known good 1-4x and mount on the problem upper and had the same poor accuracy results, even at 25 yrds. The BEST 10rd group was about 3.5"-4.5", again at 25 yrds. This is after about 80 rnds. Most groups were worse than 5+ inches. So, I have already ordered another 14.5 Gunner barrel. Going to mount it and test it out. If it performs the same I plan to put them both on an upper that has proven parts as opposed to the all new collection of parts I have on the upper now. I would guess at that point that should isolate the barrel(s) from something else causing the problem. Is it possible for an upper receiver to be out of spec or damaged cause this? If anyone has any other ideas PLEASE let me know. Assuming its not the barrel (We can make an assumption its not, but we can't verify), the most common issues are: 1. Bad optics 2. Muzzle device issues. 3. Poor receiver fitment/receivers out of spec 4. Pressure on the barrel 5. Wildly out of spec headspace 6. Ammo Work your way through those, especially paying attention to numbers 2 & 3. I am not familiar with the muzzle device and how it routes gasses at uncorking. Either way, we are here to support you through the successful resolution of the issue. We stand behind the barrel and you fully. |
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Poor receiver fitment as in upper to lower fit or barrel to upper fit?
Going to try the following asap: Try shooting with a different muzzle device and no muzzle device. Try barrel in a different upper receiver A different BCG Try the not yet received new barrel in current problem upper. Thank you! |
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Quoted:
Poor receiver fitment as in upper to lower fit or barrel to upper fit? Going to try the following asap: Try shooting with a different muzzle device and no muzzle device. Try barrel in a different upper receiver A different BCG Try the not yet received new barrel in current problem upper. Thank you! It can be a few things. Could be the face of the receiver at the interface is not square (or the barrel nut is not square as well). Could be poor fit of the extension to receiver (only an issue if VERY sloppy), etc. The way you descriped the horizontal groupings indicates a potential for non-square receiver. Issues across the horizontal plane are almost always mechanical (not a barrel, which should throw accuracy poorly in all directions equally). |
| Tagged for info. I have the 14.5 gunner on a lightweight build and it has shot awesome. I just have a red dot with 3x magnifier but at 100y it doesn't miss the 6" gong (groups close to center of target based on paint marks) so Im assuming it would also group well. |
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Quoted:
Will post more details later but after more testing it seems more like a scope problem. Sending it in today. Has been an annoying journey...lol. I now have a second barrel and upper receiver to compare to but will need more time to work out the details. We're very sorry to hear that (but happy the barrel(s) are good!). |
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UPDATE
Short version: The problem was a faulty NEW scope (Burris 1-4x MTAC w/new for '16 Ballistic AR reticle). It would hold zero enough to fool me that it wasn't the scope. But the replacement scope is fine. For what it's worth I can not say enough good about Burris' customer service, they handled it very fast and smooth. LONG version: In the process of trying to find the problem part I had bought a second barrel and upper receiver. From that point I set the original barrel/receiver to the side and focused on the new parts. While waiting for the replacement scope I installed an older/proven 1-4 Burris scope and confirmed the "new" upper was GTG. Fast forward a few weeks...Get the replacement scope in and confirm it works as it should on the "new" upper. At this point I acquire the parts needed to build up the "old" upper and in typical BRD fashion it grows it's own new lower=another AR is born. Today I got to test the "old" upper shooting only with a red dot at 25 and 100 yards. At 25 yards it is grouping with hole-touching-hole accuracy (With the original scope at 25yrds/4x it had a 2-4" spread). I didn't shoot for super accuracy at 100 yards (like I did with the "new" build w/4x scope), instead I simply shot at a 12" steel plate and never missed it. All of today's shooting was with cheap A.E. .223 55gr ammo. I MUST say a HUGE THANK YOU to Nathan for his support here and behind the scenes. I'm sure I was a pain for him at some point, especially considering it wasn't a FAXON part problem. THANK YOU NATHAN and FAXON for your dedication to our community! |
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Quoted:
UPDATE Short version: The problem was a faulty NEW scope (Burris 1-4x MTAC w/new for '16 Ballistic AR reticle). It would hold zero enough to fool me that it wasn't the scope. But the replacement scope is fine. For what it's worth I can not say enough good about Burris' customer service, they handled it very fast and smooth. LONG version: In the process of trying to find the problem part I had bought a second barrel and upper receiver. From that point I set the original barrel/receiver to the side and focused on the new parts. While waiting for the replacement scope I installed an older/proven 1-4 Burris scope and confirmed the "new" upper was GTG. Fast forward a few weeks...Get the replacement scope in and confirm it works as it should on the "new" upper. At this point I acquire the parts needed to build up the "old" upper and in typical BRD fashion it grows it's own new lower=another AR is born. Today I got to test the "old" upper shooting only with a red dot at 25 and 100 yards. At 25 yards it is grouping with hole-touching-hole accuracy (With the original scope at 25yrds/4x it had a 2-4" spread). I didn't shoot for super accuracy at 100 yards (like I did with the "new" build w/4x scope), instead I simply shot at a 12" steel plate and never missed it. All of today's shooting was with cheap A.E. .223 55gr ammo. I MUST say a HUGE THANK YOU to Nathan for his support here and behind the scenes. I'm sure I was a pain for him at some point, especially considering it wasn't a FAXON part problem. THANK YOU NATHAN and FAXON for your dedication to our community! Thrilled the issue was solved and relieved that it was not the barrel. It is always a pleasure to serve, and I can assure you, your understanding and troubleshooting was far and above our usual experience. If you need anything, please let me know! |
