Posted: 11/4/2014 9:57:39 PM EDT
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I received my upper from PSA about a month ago.
went to the range and with an mbus, the rifle required 19 clicks left windage for zeroing. Either the FSB is canted left or the barrel is out of alignment with the upper receiver and pointing right slightly (I suspect the latter) Sent it in to PSA for repair. It arrived at their location on OCT 17th. OCT 27th. Called PSA, talked to Travis. He explained that nothing had been done to my upper yet, and explained that they had taken my rifle to the range and were unable to zero it in within 3 clicks. He further explained that it would take longer and that the upper specialist had already left, and that i should call back the next day to get more specific details. OCT 28th. didnt have time to call back OCT 29th i received a message here on AR15.com from PSA that my upper was on its way back. NOV 4th 2:45pm upper was back in my possession. Initial inspection right out of the box-looked like the upper was still off, and barrel was clean. Took it to the range- exact same thing. 19 clicks to zero the upper. I suspect PSA never adjusted anything. And honestly, i question whether they ever even removed the upper from the shipping box PICTURES Here is a pic of how i check alignment. I use three points. Use a caliper, mark the middle of each with whiteout, and visually check for alignment. Hard to see in the pic but it is visibly off 
Here is a pic of the bolt. It is also a PSA part. i have about 350 rounds though this bolt. Note the uneven wear. This is why i suspect the barrel is out of alignment with the upper/carrier raceway 
Last pic. on OCT 27th I was told by Travis that nothing had been done to my upper, but according to James Estes, my upper was already straightened out by then. 
btw PSA if you are reading this, my order number was 2100916337. I don't want a refund or a replacement. But use that number as a reference for my claims |
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Just showing the bolt because it may suggest that between a canted FSB and an out of alignment barrel, it is the latter. And 19 clicks may be acceptable, but it's not normal considering what other manufacturers are putting out. Besides, that was not my point. My point is that I sent it in and it came back exactly the same. They told me they would get it within 3 clicks of mechanical zero, and it is nowhere near that. |
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Just showing the bolt because it may suggest that between a canted FSB and an out of alignment barrel, it is the latter. And 19 clicks may be acceptable, but it's not normal considering what other manufacturers are putting out. Besides, that was not my point. My point is that I sent it in and it came back exactly the same. They told me they would get it within 3 clicks of mechanical zero, and it is nowhere near that. Quoted:
Just showing the bolt because it may suggest that between a canted FSB and an out of alignment barrel, it is the latter. And 19 clicks may be acceptable, but it's not normal considering what other manufacturers are putting out. Besides, that was not my point. My point is that I sent it in and it came back exactly the same. They told me they would get it within 3 clicks of mechanical zero, and it is nowhere near that. How do you know it's not? Have you tried multiple sights? There's no reason to believe they lied unless you've tried multiple sights and had the same issue. Even then, 3 clicks to zero is not a realistic expectation. 19 click IS acceptable and is within mil spec. A lot of manufacturers put out uppers that take a lot to zero. Look at your feed ramps. If your barrel slipped while torquing, then your feed ramps will be misaligned. |
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Thank you for your purchase and inquiry.
There are a number of factors to address. Customer service is in a different facility than our RMA Department. As such, with active RMA cases there will be lags in communication where the last data CS has may not be up to date. As to the issue of rear sight adjustment required for zero. The range of adjustment not only compensates for acceptable tolerances in assembly and manufacture, but also personal preferences in sight picture. This is why one of the first things a soldier is required to do with his rifle, is to zero it. While most people will have a sight picture preference within a margin of error, there are some who will require custom adjustment for consistency. Your upper was tested with a std mil-spec carry handle rear sight, and should have been returned with a test target with the final results from your upper's testing session. This test target should be noted with the amount of adjustment needed to reach zero. If this was the only complaint, and the upper functioned without issue, there would be no further diagnosis. If you did not receive this target, please IM us here. According to our records, your upper was purchased without a BCG and charging handle. The bolt face does show some amount of wear, but bolts are a wear item. We did not supply this BCG with this upper, and your only other purchase appears to be a rifle kit from back in February that you have not reported an issue with. With all these variables, it would be impossible to speculate on the cause of the Bolt wear without further inspection. Our goal is to provide quality products to our customers. Since you do not want a refund or a replacement, we will have our RMA Tech contact you directly to personally address any concerns you may have. |
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How do you know it's not? Have you tried multiple sights? There's no reason to believe they lied unless you've tried multiple sights and had the same issue. Even then, 3 clicks to zero is not a realistic expectation. 19 click IS acceptable and is within mil spec. A lot of manufacturers put out uppers that take a lot to zero. Look at your feed ramps. If your barrel slipped while torquing, then your feed ramps will be misaligned. Quoted:
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Just showing the bolt because it may suggest that between a canted FSB and an out of alignment barrel, it is the latter. And 19 clicks may be acceptable, but it's not normal considering what other manufacturers are putting out. Besides, that was not my point. My point is that I sent it in and it came back exactly the same. They told me they would get it within 3 clicks of mechanical zero, and it is nowhere near that. How do you know it's not? Have you tried multiple sights? There's no reason to believe they lied unless you've tried multiple sights and had the same issue. Even then, 3 clicks to zero is not a realistic expectation. 19 click IS acceptable and is within mil spec. A lot of manufacturers put out uppers that take a lot to zero. Look at your feed ramps. If your barrel slipped while torquing, then your feed ramps will be misaligned. Thanks for your suggestions. I've tried 2 sights. Second sight required 23 clicks. But it was DPMS which, along with many other sights utilizing similar attachment methods/hardware, sits slightly canted when installed on uppers (dpms cants right). So its not fair for me to claim upper required 23 click to zero And ive checked my barrel extension. It is actually torqued clockwise just ever so slightly. 
People love to defend PSA and try to find blame elsewhere. But it is a well known fact that PSA rifles often ship with canted FSBs (or out of alignment barrels, but i think most people that run into this just assume they have a canted fsb). Either way, it's probably the most common complaint customers have of PSA's products. I knew this before making my purchase. But i had hoped that it could be resolved. |
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Thank you for your purchase and inquiry. There are a number of factors to address. Customer service is in a different facility than our RMA Department. As such, with active RMA cases there will be lags in communication where the last data CS has may not be up to date. As to the issue of rear sight adjustment required for zero. The range of adjustment not only compensates for acceptable tolerances in assembly and manufacture, but also personal preferences in sight picture. This is why one of the first things a soldier is required to do with his rifle, is to zero it. While most people will have a sight picture preference within a margin of error, there are some who will require custom adjustment for consistency. Your upper was tested with a std mil-spec carry handle rear sight, and should have been returned with a test target with the final results from your upper's testing session. This test target should be noted with the amount of adjustment needed to reach zero. If this was the only complaint, and the upper functioned without issue, there would be no further diagnosis. If you did not receive this target, please IM us here. According to our records, your upper was purchased without a BCG and charging handle. The bolt face does show some amount of wear, but bolts are a wear item. We did not supply this BCG with this upper, and your only other purchase appears to be a rifle kit from back in February that you have not reported an issue with. With all these variables, it would be impossible to speculate on the cause of the Bolt wear without further inspection. Our goal is to provide quality products to our customers. Since you do not want a refund or a replacement, we will have our RMA Tech contact you directly to personally address any concerns you may have. I received the test target. To me, a test target means nothing. I wasn't there to witness the testing, and my own testing shows that it is considerably off. So im not just going to take your word for it. The bcg was purchased seperately, but it is PSA. Anyways as i've stated earlier, i'm not complaining about the wear. I know wear is normal. And yes, I did purchase that kit back in February. I report the same exact issue with it. A canted FSB and that one required 22 clicks with the mbus. I sent that upper back in for repair as well but after complications i received a refund. |
| What do they have to gain by not getting you a product that works? They already paid for the shipping. This is the first I have heard that an issue was not corrected. Please forgive the apprehension but something does not seem right. They have a lot to lose if they don't correct issue. Which sight aperture did you zero with? |
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What do they have to gain by not getting you a product that works? They already paid for the shipping. This is the first I have heard that an issue was not corrected. Please forgive the apprehension but something does not seem right. They have a lot to lose if they don't correct issue. Which sight aperture did you zero with? If you search other forums, there are other instances where uppers issues were not resolved after multiple trips back to PSA. As to what they have to gain... just speculation, but maybe it's cheaper to just ship the rifle back and fourth once or twice until the customer decides to just suck it up or sell off the rifle. probably cheaper than wasting a barrel or truing up the upper receiver barrel socket face. I used the smaller aperture on the magpul to zero. With the DPMS i started out with 0-2 and didn't go any further when it reached 23 clicks. |
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I had the same problem. Barrel not straight by about 8 MOA-- definitely not the FSB.
My upper has been sitting at PSA for 3 weeks. I have no idea what is going on despite calling 4 times. I can't believe PSA is trying to point to the shooter for the sights being that far off. Never in 12 years in the military have I seen someone need 19 clicks from mechanical zero to get their sights on. -Future Bravo Co. Customer |
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I had the same problem. Barrel not straight by about 8 MOA-- definitely not the FSB. My upper has been sitting at PSA for 3 weeks. I have no idea what is going on despite calling 4 times. I can't believe PSA is trying to point to the shooter for the sights being that far off. Never in 12 years in the military have I seen someone need 19 clicks from mechanical zero to get their sights on. -Future Bravo Co. Customer Quoted:
I had the same problem. Barrel not straight by about 8 MOA-- definitely not the FSB. My upper has been sitting at PSA for 3 weeks. I have no idea what is going on despite calling 4 times. I can't believe PSA is trying to point to the shooter for the sights being that far off. Never in 12 years in the military have I seen someone need 19 clicks from mechanical zero to get their sights on. -Future Bravo Co. Customer lol that's funny, because BCM posted a guide referring to up to 22 clicks being in spec. 
I have both BCM and PSA. I see no difference in quality - I got the PSA CHF upper for cheaper than a standard BCM upper. I do love them both. Link to explanation Quoted:
Ok, with a set of assumptions could the Mil-Spec information be extrapolated to give us a guide line for the allowable adjustment that is “with-in spec” ? For the 20” M16 (Rifle length gas and sight radius), using M16A2 – MIL-R63997B Assuming a 2” group Assuming 1 click = ½ MOA You get the initial +/- 5 clicks Plus the 9.6 clicks to adjust a shot that is on the width of the target (as defined in D from the table -11.6”W), left or right to adjust the POI to POA. That would leave you with approximately 14.6 clicks of adjustment for zero For the M4 (Carbine length gas and sight radius), using M4A1 – MIL-C-71186 Assuming a 2” group Assuming 1 click = .68 MOA You get the initial +/- 12 clicks Plus the 10.3 clicks to adjust a shot that is on the width of the target (as defined in D from the table -14”W), left or right to adjust the POI to POA. That would leave you with approximately 22.3 clicks of adjustment for zero Basically - you have 12 clicks to get on paper, then up to 10 more clicks to zero, which would move you to the center of the paper. (assuming the 14'' wide military target) |
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If you search other forums, there are other instances where uppers issues were not resolved after multiple trips back to PSA. As to what they have to gain... just speculation, but maybe it's cheaper to just ship the rifle back and fourth once or twice until the customer decides to just suck it up or sell off the rifle. probably cheaper than wasting a barrel or truing up the upper receiver barrel socket face. I used the smaller aperture on the magpul to zero. With the DPMS i started out with 0-2 and didn't go any further when it reached 23 clicks. Quoted:
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What do they have to gain by not getting you a product that works? They already paid for the shipping. This is the first I have heard that an issue was not corrected. Please forgive the apprehension but something does not seem right. They have a lot to lose if they don't correct issue. Which sight aperture did you zero with? If you search other forums, there are other instances where uppers issues were not resolved after multiple trips back to PSA. As to what they have to gain... just speculation, but maybe it's cheaper to just ship the rifle back and fourth once or twice until the customer decides to just suck it up or sell off the rifle. probably cheaper than wasting a barrel or truing up the upper receiver barrel socket face. I used the smaller aperture on the magpul to zero. With the DPMS i started out with 0-2 and didn't go any further when it reached 23 clicks. preposterous. the sheer amount of volume they buy to sell, the price of a barrel and upper receiver is probably cheaper than it is to ship it back and forth 4 times. I have a feeling that we dont get all of the stories, when it involves psa not giving the customer repaired items. Im not defending them, by any means we all know theyve had a "spotty" history, but im not accusing them either. I can only speak for my own experience with them, and that is that they have always fixed things for me when its wrong. It may have took a month or 4, but they ALWAYS made it right. if your not happy, ship it back and ask for a replacement. simple to do and be done. |
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Just curious, why won't you let them refund or replace the upper? It seems that they are pretty anxious to please at this point. I would assume your goal, from the start, was getting a working upper. Because this has happened to me before. I got a refund last time, but it wasn't a full refund. I asked PSA about it and was told that the amount they refund is based on current pricing (they took a week to actually issue the refund and it just happened to coincide with the 2 day fathers day sale). It should have been based on the price of purchase. I both messaged here and called. I even posted about that incident, but my post was deleted. Never got the rest of my money back. And if they send me a new upper I suspect it will the same, as this current one is almost exactly the same as the last one with a different forge mark purchased months ago -almost exactly the same requirements to zero, the barrel extension being slightly over torqued clockwise, localized bolt wear etc... I suspect these are just characteristics of all the 16" premium carbines they are putting out. At this point I'm just trying to sell or trade it off |
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preposterous. the sheer amount of volume they buy to sell, the price of a barrel and upper receiver is probably cheaper than it is to ship it back and forth 4 times. I have a feeling that we dont get all of the stories, when it involves psa not giving the customer repaired items. Im not defending them, by any means we all know theyve had a "spotty" history, but im not accusing them either. I can only speak for my own experience with them, and that is that they have always fixed things for me when its wrong. It may have took a month or 4, but they ALWAYS made it right. if your not happy, ship it back and ask for a replacement. simple to do and be done. Quoted:
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What do they have to gain by not getting you a product that works? They already paid for the shipping. This is the first I have heard that an issue was not corrected. Please forgive the apprehension but something does not seem right. They have a lot to lose if they don't correct issue. Which sight aperture did you zero with? If you search other forums, there are other instances where uppers issues were not resolved after multiple trips back to PSA. As to what they have to gain... just speculation, but maybe it's cheaper to just ship the rifle back and fourth once or twice until the customer decides to just suck it up or sell off the rifle. probably cheaper than wasting a barrel or truing up the upper receiver barrel socket face. I used the smaller aperture on the magpul to zero. With the DPMS i started out with 0-2 and didn't go any further when it reached 23 clicks. preposterous. the sheer amount of volume they buy to sell, the price of a barrel and upper receiver is probably cheaper than it is to ship it back and forth 4 times. I have a feeling that we dont get all of the stories, when it involves psa not giving the customer repaired items. Im not defending them, by any means we all know theyve had a "spotty" history, but im not accusing them either. I can only speak for my own experience with them, and that is that they have always fixed things for me when its wrong. It may have took a month or 4, but they ALWAYS made it right. if your not happy, ship it back and ask for a replacement. simple to do and be done. That's assuming that simply throwing on another barrel or receiver would fix the problem. Ive owned two (of course, this is a VERY small data point. but this is why i question the things i do) uppers with very similar characteristics purchased about 10 months apart. It is possible that whatever is off about these uppers is just being cut that way due to whatever jig or machinery they are using. Again this is just speculation. But if that were the case then no, it wouldn't be as simple as just grabbing another component off some large pile. ADCO charges $90 to re-drill FSB pin slots. It is not a cheap procedure |
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First, I agree that if you paid full price you should get a full refund. Second, I don't feel your sample of two is indicative of how all their rifles are operating. I have 15 rifles built with their complete uppers and not one required more than 6 clicks with MBUS, GI carry handle, Troy, Magpul pro sites. Mostly they zero in 2 to 3 clicks of adjustment. Even 15 rifles and two pistols is a relatively small sample. People post on the interwebs for many different reasons. I normally don't listen, because most are PEBKAC issues. Ones own personal experience is what counts. I keep shopping with PSA because my personal experience has been positive. If that stops. My money stops. I encourage this mindset.
This all being said, what do you have to lose if they refund or replace your upper? |
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"lol that's funny, because BCM posted a guide referring to up to 22 clicks being in spec."
Are we talking 22 clicks because the front site block is canted, or because the barrel is not straight to the receiver??? I can see how 22 clicks to compensate for a canted FSB is fine, but I would think a barrel should not be that crooked in relation to the upper receiver. These are two very different situations. A crooked barrel would cause the bolt lugs to engage the barrel extension unevenly, causing more stress on certain lugs and none on others. That seems dangerous to me. Also, I'm not going to BCM in the future simply because of the crooked barrel (*not* the FSB, which I could live with being canted enough for 22 clicks to zero...maybe), but because customer service at PSA has no idea what they are doing. I had to call four times before they even found out where my upper was, 2 weeks after they signed for it. They took my phone number twice, saying they would call me back, which they never did. The third time they said they would email me... never did that either. Then they sent the upper without giving me a tracking number-- SURPRISE! You're not home when it gets delivered! So... they don't get my business anymore-- at least not for anything that might require the use of their CS Dept. |
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First, I agree that if you paid full price you should get a full refund. Second, I don't feel your sample of two is indicative of how all their rifles are operating. I have 15 rifles built with their complete uppers and not one required more than 6 clicks with MBUS, GI carry handle, Troy, Magpul pro sites. Mostly they zero in 2 to 3 clicks of adjustment. Even 15 rifles and two pistols is a relatively small sample. People post on the interwebs for many different reasons. I normally don't listen, because most are PEBKAC issues. Ones own personal experience is what counts. I keep shopping with PSA because my personal experience has been positive. If that stops. My money stops. I encourage this mindset. This all being said, what do you have to lose if they refund or replace your upper? Im glad you've had such good experience with them. I have not. And as i've stated, I haven't had a good experience asking for a refund from them. I'd rather just trade the rifle. And replacing the upper is an option. But as soon as anything is sent in, it's bye-bye for at least 3 weeks. A replacement would probably take at least 2.5 weeks, and even then i dont know what i would be getting. plus i dont want to wait that long again |
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That's assuming that simply throwing on another barrel or receiver would fix the problem. Ive owned two (of course, this is a VERY small data point. but this is why i question the things i do) uppers with very similar characteristics purchased about 10 months apart. It is possible that whatever is off about these uppers is just being cut that way due to whatever jig or machinery they are using. Again this is just speculation. But if that were the case then no, it wouldn't be as simple as just grabbing another component off some large pile. ADCO charges $90 to re-drill FSB pin slots. It is not a cheap procedure Quoted:
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What do they have to gain by not getting you a product that works? They already paid for the shipping. This is the first I have heard that an issue was not corrected. Please forgive the apprehension but something does not seem right. They have a lot to lose if they don't correct issue. Which sight aperture did you zero with? If you search other forums, there are other instances where uppers issues were not resolved after multiple trips back to PSA. As to what they have to gain... just speculation, but maybe it's cheaper to just ship the rifle back and fourth once or twice until the customer decides to just suck it up or sell off the rifle. probably cheaper than wasting a barrel or truing up the upper receiver barrel socket face. I used the smaller aperture on the magpul to zero. With the DPMS i started out with 0-2 and didn't go any further when it reached 23 clicks. preposterous. the sheer amount of volume they buy to sell, the price of a barrel and upper receiver is probably cheaper than it is to ship it back and forth 4 times. I have a feeling that we dont get all of the stories, when it involves psa not giving the customer repaired items. Im not defending them, by any means we all know theyve had a "spotty" history, but im not accusing them either. I can only speak for my own experience with them, and that is that they have always fixed things for me when its wrong. It may have took a month or 4, but they ALWAYS made it right. if your not happy, ship it back and ask for a replacement. simple to do and be done. That's assuming that simply throwing on another barrel or receiver would fix the problem. Ive owned two (of course, this is a VERY small data point. but this is why i question the things i do) uppers with very similar characteristics purchased about 10 months apart. It is possible that whatever is off about these uppers is just being cut that way due to whatever jig or machinery they are using. Again this is just speculation. But if that were the case then no, it wouldn't be as simple as just grabbing another component off some large pile. ADCO charges $90 to re-drill FSB pin slots. It is not a cheap procedure send it back, ask for replacement, if its bad you get one, if its not you dont. simple as that. PSA does not machine any of these parts, psa buys uber cheap, and sells, uber cheap. Nothing is machined by them, hell they only assemble. |
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Because this has happened to me before. I got a refund last time, but it wasn't a full refund. I asked PSA about it and was told that the amount they refund is based on current pricing (they took a week to actually issue the refund and it just happened to coincide with the 2 day fathers day sale). It should have been based on the price of purchase. I both messaged here and called. I even posted about that incident, but my post was deleted. Never got the rest of my money back. And if they send me a new upper I suspect it will the same, as this current one is almost exactly the same as the last one with a different forge mark purchased months ago -almost exactly the same requirements to zero, the barrel extension being slightly over torqued clockwise, localized bolt wear etc... I suspect these are just characteristics of all the 16" premium carbines they are putting out. At this point I'm just trying to sell or trade it off Quoted:
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Just curious, why won't you let them refund or replace the upper? It seems that they are pretty anxious to please at this point. I would assume your goal, from the start, was getting a working upper. Because this has happened to me before. I got a refund last time, but it wasn't a full refund. I asked PSA about it and was told that the amount they refund is based on current pricing (they took a week to actually issue the refund and it just happened to coincide with the 2 day fathers day sale). It should have been based on the price of purchase. I both messaged here and called. I even posted about that incident, but my post was deleted. Never got the rest of my money back. And if they send me a new upper I suspect it will the same, as this current one is almost exactly the same as the last one with a different forge mark purchased months ago -almost exactly the same requirements to zero, the barrel extension being slightly over torqued clockwise, localized bolt wear etc... I suspect these are just characteristics of all the 16" premium carbines they are putting out. At this point I'm just trying to sell or trade it off Thank you for your comments. We feel that in the interest of full disclosure, a few items need to be clarified. 3 week turnaround: OP is in California, anything sent back to us from California will spend 2 weeks in transit (in & back) unless the customer specifies expedited service. While most cosmetic issues can be turned around quickly, accuracy issues can require several trips to the range, which is a time consuming process. Even with that, a one week turnaround is not excessive. Not refunded full amount: The previous purchase was for a Blem rifle kit. OP returned a stripped upper (no bcg or CH). When notified that the repaired upper was shipping out and would be over-nighted due to the customers repeated calls for progress, OP promptly asked for a refund. Because only the upper was returned, the customer was refunded just the amount of the returned upper. OP kept the BCG, Charging handle, and lower Build kit. Upper test results meaningless: The letter posted was from our RMA tech, a rather well mannered and trustworthy lad with a well trained eye for marksmanship. He signs his name to his work proudly, and I do not doubt his accuracy or efforts. We have made a good faith effort to correct any perceived issues with OP's purchase, and would gladly refund him completely for his purchase, provided he returns it completely. We apologize for any inconvenience. |