Posted: 10/8/2013 3:57:59 PM EDT
|
So here's the deal guys. I have an 18" OBR that currently wears a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50mm FFP with MRAD based reticle. It's a nice optic for the money but I want a little more magnification and I also want to see for myself if the high end optics are really worth the premium they command. So, I am looking to replace the Vortex with one of the following optics: Leupold Mk. 6 3-18x44mm, Leupold Mk. 8 3.5-25x56mm, and Nightforce ATACR 5-25x56mm. Of important note, I can get discounted pricing on the Leupold scopes, so the price difference only ends up being about $500 from the most expensive option to the least expensive option, with the Nightforce falling somewhere in between. Below is a list of pros and cons I have come up with:
Leupold Mk. 6 3-18x44mm
Leupold Mk. 8 3.5-25x56mm
Nightforce ATACR 5-25x56mm
Since this scope will be going on a semi auto rifle, rapid target engagement is desired, hence my preference for something like the Horus H-58 reticle. However, the lack of an H-58 reticle isn't a deal killer for the ATACR, as Nightforce's MIL-R reticle looks pretty good too. Similarly, while first focal plane is desired, I could live with a second focal plane reticle if the other features of the scope made it worthwhile. Whichever option I choose, a Mil based reticle and 0.1 Mil adjustments are required. Also worth pointing out is how I assigned optical quality. I have no doubt that Leupold's glass is top of the line, however, I haven't been able to quantify it. All the reviews I've read about the ATACR put the glass almost on par with S&B. Can anyone that has used the Mk. 6 and/or Mk. 8 chime in on the glass clarity? Has anyone used or even seen a review of the Mk. 8 in question? Can anyone think of any pros and/or cons that I missed? Which wold you choose in the same situation? All insight is greatly appreciated. |
|
In the group you have listed, I would also consider the Bushnell HDMR. The H59 reticle has finer lines. = +
Even cheaper entry price. = + 50 mm objective = + FFP = + Unfortunately I don't have first hand experience with it, but on specs alone, it is one of the scopes on my short list. NF's B.E.A.S.T. is top of the list. Hoping the long wait for my tOBR allows me to save enough $$$ for it as it is quite the expense. |
|
My best advice to give you is this. I agree with the poster above in regards to the Bushnell. I LOVE my HDMR, but I would recommend the G2DMR. For my eyes and I have good eyes, the Horus reticules are wayyyy to cluttered and give me a headache. I love the 4 HDMR's that I own. The reticule is absolutely ingenious. There is enough there for holds but not to much to clutter the field of view. To be honest hopefully Harely will be around in a few to add this two cents to this. He has spent some time on my Bushy and I think he likes it but I will let him speak for himself. Like I said I have 4 of them and the have all tracked perfect with zero issues. I took one on a pig hunt in Texas and it did not lose zero getting from San Diego to Texas. Also for the $1250 range to get a 34mm tube that is front focal with locking turrets and good glass. Its a no brainier.
STAY AWAY FROM THE NIGHTFORCE BEAST! That thing is a cluster fuck. That little switch is the stupid thing I have ever seen. The scope turrets adjust .2 mils and the little throw knob does .1 mils. So you then have to think. "I dialed 4.2 mils but need 4.3 mils. Do I flip the switch left or right?" There is to much thinking on the scope and when you need to adjust fast that little knob slows you down. The ACAR is a good scope but at that cost and not front focal? Please I will pass. Leopold has really been left behind when it comes to optics. There are a lot of other options out there. Look into these as well. All the choices are in the same class depending on your budget Vortex Razor $1800-$2000 ( great scope I have owned one and loved it. Vortex warranty and customer service can not be beat) USO look at the 5-20 and the 3.2-17x ( I never thought I would say this but yes Harley I bought one and is on its way) You can get one at around $2800 ask me if your interested. Bushnell G2DMR lots of choices in this 3.5-21 in both 5 mil and 10 mil turrets and the new 4.5-30x with 10 mil turns and in FDE. |
|
it really all depends on how you are going to use the rifle since they are three incredibly different scopes. how are you going to be using your rifle, you mentioned rapid engagement but how far out? at this point, the difference in glass in a pretty minute.
ask your self do you want a 15 pound 308? ask your self if you are finding yourself dial down in the summer as you are in Arizona, that nice SFP rectical is pretty much worthless for holds and ranging. ask yourself do you really need illumination? I wouldn't get caught up in how much travel any of your choices have, considering that the 308 is pretty much a dog past 800, unless you can get 2800 plus, 40 MOA is going get you as far as the effective range of your ammo. they are all great scopes in their own regard, just have to ask yourself if that paticular scope your interested fits your shooting style |
|
Quoted:
My best advice to give you is this. I agree with the poster above in regards to the Bushnell. I LOVE my HDMR, but I would recommend the G2DMR. For my eyes and I have good eyes, the Horus reticules are wayyyy to cluttered and give me a headache. I love the 4 HDMR's that I own. The reticule is absolutely ingenious. There is enough there for holds but not to much to clutter the field of view. To be honest hopefully Harely will be around in a few to add this two cents to this. He has spent some time on my Bushy and I think he likes it but I will let him speak for himself. Like I said I have 4 of them and the have all tracked perfect with zero issues. I took one on a pig hunt in Texas and it did not lose zero getting from San Diego to Texas. Also for the $1250 range to get a 34mm tube that is front focal with locking turrets and good glass. Its a no brainier. STAY AWAY FROM THE NIGHTFORCE BEAST! That thing is a cluster fuck. That little switch is the stupid thing I have ever seen. The scope turrets adjust .2 mils and the little throw knob does .1 mils. So you then have to think. "I dialed 4.2 mils but need 4.3 mils. Do I flip the switch left or right?" There is to much thinking on the scope and when you need to adjust fast that little knob slows you down. The ACAR is a good scope but at that cost and not front focal? Please I will pass. Leopold has really been left behind when it comes to optics. There are a lot of other options out there. Look into these as well. All the choices are in the same class depending on your budget Vortex Razor $1800-$2000 ( great scope I have owned one and loved it. Vortex warranty and customer service can not be beat) USO look at the 5-20 and the 3.2-17x ( I never thought I would say this but yes Harley I bought one and is on its way) You can get one at around $2800 ask me if your interested. Bushnell G2DMR lots of choices in this 3.5-21 in both 5 mil and 10 mil turrets and the new 4.5-30x with 10 mil turns and in FDE. I'll definitely take your advice into consideration. As this is my first venture outside of the $200.00 scope range, I want to get it right the first time. The only thing leading me the NF route at this point is the illuminated ret, and the more I think it over the less of a necessity it seems. I've never had a problem putting lead on target out of lesser scopes, and so far I've never had to make a follow up shot on any game I've harvested. I'm really just looking to refine my understanding and capabilities and stretch out my range! ETA: I also don't mind saving $2600 |
|
I'll definitely take your advice into consideration. As this is my first venture outside of the $200.00 scope range, I want to get it right the first time. The only thing leading me the NF route at this point is the illuminated ret, and the more I think it over the less of a necessity it seems. I've never had a problem putting lead on target out of lesser scopes, and so far I've never had to make a follow up shot on any game I've harvested. I'm really just looking to refine my understanding and capabilities and stretch out my range! ETA: I also don't mind saving $2600 The Mk 6 is available with illumination as well.... The glass on my Mk 4 is absolutely awesome, one would think the newer Mk 6 would be even clearer. One thing to keep in mind, with the clearer glass, you may not need all that extra magnification. My 10X SWFA Super Sniper was so much clearer than my 36X Bushnell spotting scope, that I could see much more with the lower power scope than with the spotting scope. Ended up giving the spotting scope away as it was so poor that I couldn't bring myself to actually sell that piece of junk..... I also had a cheap 3.8 x 12 power scope on my 6.8 SPCII. I reinstalled my Leupold 1x4 Varex 2 on it because I could see so much more out of the clearer glass...... I'm giving that scope to the same (teenage) relative I gave the spotting scope to..... He has a really good job now, so if he wants a better scope, he can buy it himself.... |
|
Quoted:
The Mk 6 is available with illumination as well.... The glass on my Mk 4 is absolutely awesome, one would think the newer Mk 6 would be even clearer. One thing to keep in mind, with the clearer glass, you may not need all that extra magnification. My 10X SWFA Super Sniper was so much clearer than my 36X Bushnell spotting scope, that I could see much more with the lower power scope than with the spotting scope. Ended up giving the spotting scope away as it was so poor that I couldn't bring myself to actually sell that piece of junk..... I also had a cheap 3.8 x 12 power scope on my 6.8 SPCII. I reinstalled my Leupold 1x4 Varex 2 on it because I could see so much more out of the clearer glass...... I'm giving that scope to the same (teenage) relative I gave the spotting scope to..... He has a really good job now, so if he wants a better scope, he can buy it himself.... Quoted:
I'll definitely take your advice into consideration. As this is my first venture outside of the $200.00 scope range, I want to get it right the first time. The only thing leading me the NF route at this point is the illuminated ret, and the more I think it over the less of a necessity it seems. I've never had a problem putting lead on target out of lesser scopes, and so far I've never had to make a follow up shot on any game I've harvested. I'm really just looking to refine my understanding and capabilities and stretch out my range! ETA: I also don't mind saving $2600 The Mk 6 is available with illumination as well.... The glass on my Mk 4 is absolutely awesome, one would think the newer Mk 6 would be even clearer. One thing to keep in mind, with the clearer glass, you may not need all that extra magnification. My 10X SWFA Super Sniper was so much clearer than my 36X Bushnell spotting scope, that I could see much more with the lower power scope than with the spotting scope. Ended up giving the spotting scope away as it was so poor that I couldn't bring myself to actually sell that piece of junk..... I also had a cheap 3.8 x 12 power scope on my 6.8 SPCII. I reinstalled my Leupold 1x4 Varex 2 on it because I could see so much more out of the clearer glass...... I'm giving that scope to the same (teenage) relative I gave the spotting scope to..... He has a really good job now, so if he wants a better scope, he can buy it himself.... You cna not compair the glass in that Bushnell to what you will be getting in an HDMR. The low level Bushnell is crap compaired to the high end Bushnell Tactical line. The glass in those HDMR's are well worth the money and really give a clear view. |
|
OP, what type of shooting do you plan on doing ?
Long range precision, 100-300 yards at the range, hunting, mixed? Stationary shooting or walking /stalking sometimes? I have both Leupolds you mention. Like them both . Also have the Bushnell HDMR with a Tremor2 reticle. The Mark 8 and Bushnell are a bit heavy. Mark 6 is almost light by comparison. Unless you are scouting a bunch at long distances (800+ yds), I'm not sure that the max magnification difference between -18x and -25x will be that big of an issue. Glass quality on the Leupolds is near close to S&B clarity. If possible, you really need to practically compare the reticles at a distance. You might look at the Tremor2 reticle vs the H-58. I wish they offered a H59. H58 vs H59 Tremor2 specs |
|
Quoted:
it really all depends on how you are going to use the rifle since they are three incredibly different scopes. how are you going to be using your rifle, you mentioned rapid engagement but how far out? at this point, the difference in glass in a pretty minute. ask your self do you want a 15 pound 308? ask your self if you are finding yourself dial down in the summer as you are in Arizona, that nice SFP rectical is pretty much worthless for holds and ranging. ask yourself do you really need illumination? I wouldn't get caught up in how much travel any of your choices have, considering that the 308 is pretty much a dog past 800, unless you can get 2800 plus, 40 MOA is going get you as far as the effective range of your ammo. they are all great scopes in their own regard, just have to ask yourself if that paticular scope your interested fits your shooting style Quoted:
it really all depends on how you are going to use the rifle since they are three incredibly different scopes. how are you going to be using your rifle, you mentioned rapid engagement but how far out? at this point, the difference in glass in a pretty minute. ask your self do you want a 15 pound 308? ask your self if you are finding yourself dial down in the summer as you are in Arizona, that nice SFP rectical is pretty much worthless for holds and ranging. ask yourself do you really need illumination? I wouldn't get caught up in how much travel any of your choices have, considering that the 308 is pretty much a dog past 800, unless you can get 2800 plus, 40 MOA is going get you as far as the effective range of your ammo. they are all great scopes in their own regard, just have to ask yourself if that paticular scope your interested fits your shooting style My OBR is already a pig, so realistically, I will mostly be using it from a static position. I have a 7.62 tOBR and tAR on order and one of those will be getting either a Leupy Mk. 6 3-18 or Mk. 8 CQBSS and be assigned hunting duty. Help me understand something about second focal plane scopes. Am I correct in believing that if I want to range or use holdovers at a magnification other than max, I need to multiply the counted mils by the factor of the magnification setting? For example, on the ATACR, the reticle will be calibrated for use at 25x, so if I wanted to use a 2 mil holdover at 12.5x (half of 25x), I would need to multiply the number of mils by 2 to get an accurate mil count for that setting? As for needing the adjustment, I don't anticipate my max expected range to be more than 1000 yards, and even that would only be occasionally. With that in mind, maybe I don't need the adjustment when the scope is on the OBR, but I am also planning on putting together an ELR rifle at some point, and being able to use the same scope on the two rifles could be handy initially. That said it's not really a major requirement at this point. Quoted:
I'll definitely take your advice into consideration. As this is my first venture outside of the $200.00 scope range, I want to get it right the first time. The only thing leading me the NF route at this point is the illuminated ret, and the more I think it over the less of a necessity it seems. I've never had a problem putting lead on target out of lesser scopes, and so far I've never had to make a follow up shot on any game I've harvested. I'm really just looking to refine my understanding and capabilities and stretch out my range! ETA: I also don't mind saving $2600 The Mk 6 is available with illumination as well.... The Mk.6 with Illumination would cost me over $1400 more than the Mk. 6 I am looking at, essentially making it not an option. |
| Another thought. I've been reading some reviews of the pinch and turn turrets on the Mk. 6 and Mk. 8 scopes and owners keep mentioning between 0.05 and 0.1 mil of play in the elevation turret when in the locked position (doesn't line up completely with the tick mark). Can anyone with one of these scopes confirm if this is common? |
|
Quoted:
Another thought. I've been reading some reviews of the pinch and turn turrets on the Mk. 6 and Mk. 8 scopes and owners keep mentioning between 0.05 and 0.1 mil of play in the elevation turret when in the locked position (doesn't line up completely with the tick mark). Can anyone with one of these scopes confirm if this is common? Yes, the pinch and turns feel a bit squishy with a bit of play. Zero lock turrets on the Mark 6's lock up pretty well. From what you have said, it sounds like between the Leupolds , you would be better served with the non-illum reticle Mark 6. It would save you about a thousand bucks. If money was not an object , you don't care about the extra pound, the limited mount options, and you want the IR, then the Mark 8 would work. Dealer on Mark 6's non-IR with a Horus reticle is about $1800. You should be able to get one for under $1950. And the Mark 6's are all in stock now where the Mark 8's are spotty. |
|
Quoted:
Yes, the pinch and turns feel a bit squishy with a bit of play. Zero lock turrets on the Mark 6's lock up pretty well. From what you have said, it sounds like between the Leupolds , you would be better served with the non-illum reticle Mark 6. It would save you about a thousand bucks. If money was not an object , you don't care about the extra pound, the limited mount options, and you want the IR, then the Mark 8 would work. Dealer on Mark 6's non-IR with a Horus reticle is about $1800. You should be able to get one for under $1950. And the Mark 6's are all in stock now where the Mark 8's are spotty. Quoted:
Quoted:
Another thought. I've been reading some reviews of the pinch and turn turrets on the Mk. 6 and Mk. 8 scopes and owners keep mentioning between 0.05 and 0.1 mil of play in the elevation turret when in the locked position (doesn't line up completely with the tick mark). Can anyone with one of these scopes confirm if this is common? Yes, the pinch and turns feel a bit squishy with a bit of play. Zero lock turrets on the Mark 6's lock up pretty well. From what you have said, it sounds like between the Leupolds , you would be better served with the non-illum reticle Mark 6. It would save you about a thousand bucks. If money was not an object , you don't care about the extra pound, the limited mount options, and you want the IR, then the Mark 8 would work. Dealer on Mark 6's non-IR with a Horus reticle is about $1800. You should be able to get one for under $1950. And the Mark 6's are all in stock now where the Mark 8's are spotty. It looks like the difference between the Mk. 6 and Mk. 8 will be a little under $600. I'm leaning more towards either the Mk. 6 or the ATACR as I don't think LT makes a 35mm mount and I'm not sure the higher price of the Mk. 8 is justified by the additional features (for my purposes anyway). Can someone chime in on my understanding of using a SFP reticle for ranging and holdovers as I posted above? One advantage to buying the Mk.6 is that I will probably end up buying one eventually any way for my future tOBR or tAR. I could use it now and decide if it is good enough to stay on my OBR or if it leaves me wanting something. |
|
Quoted:
Yes, the pinch and turns feel a bit squishy with a bit of play. Zero lock turrets on the Mark 6's lock up pretty well. From what you have said, it sounds like between the Leupolds , you would be better served with the non-illum reticle Mark 6. It would save you about a thousand bucks. If money was not an object , you don't care about the extra pound, the limited mount options, and you want the IR, then the Mark 8 would work. Dealer on Mark 6's non-IR with a Horus reticle is about $1800. You should be able to get one for under $1950. And the Mark 6's are all in stock now where the Mark 8's are spotty. Quoted:
Quoted:
Another thought. I've been reading some reviews of the pinch and turn turrets on the Mk. 6 and Mk. 8 scopes and owners keep mentioning between 0.05 and 0.1 mil of play in the elevation turret when in the locked position (doesn't line up completely with the tick mark). Can anyone with one of these scopes confirm if this is common? Yes, the pinch and turns feel a bit squishy with a bit of play. Zero lock turrets on the Mark 6's lock up pretty well. From what you have said, it sounds like between the Leupolds , you would be better served with the non-illum reticle Mark 6. It would save you about a thousand bucks. If money was not an object , you don't care about the extra pound, the limited mount options, and you want the IR, then the Mark 8 would work. Dealer on Mark 6's non-IR with a Horus reticle is about $1800. You should be able to get one for under $1950. And the Mark 6's are all in stock now where the Mark 8's are spotty. I can verify the play. I called Leupold about it and the reticle won't move unless you pinch and hear a click. |
|
LaRue 35mm mounts
SPR LT-104 LT 745 and why is there not a 35mm LT-111 OBR mount ??? 
|
|
+1 for an LT-111 and/or LT-120 in 35mm. 
|
|
Quoted: Are you comparing them with the Nightforce ATACR or the NXS scopes? Every review I have read says the ATACR glass is leaps better than glass used in the NXS scopes. Quoted: Quoted: IMO the newer Leupold scopes have better glass than the nightforce ones. Are you comparing them with the Nightforce ATACR or the NXS scopes? Every review I have read says the ATACR glass is leaps better than glass used in the NXS scopes. |