Posted: 1/28/2013 5:12:10 AM EDT
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I'm sure this has been asked before but I couldn't find the answer so here we go again (probably?)...
Why no absolute co-witness version of the LT-150 or LT-129 Aimpoint mount? LaRue make one for the Aimpoint M4 optic (which I already have) and for the T1, why not for the M2/M3/Pro sights? I am well aware of the pros and cons of lower 1/3 co-witness vs absolute and I prefer the absolute. I plan on getting an Aimpoint Pro soon for my backup AR and would like to stick with a LaRue mount (which is what I use on my other AR's) but if there is not an absolute co-witness version for that sight I will be forced to buy something else. Please don't make me buy something else! 
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Why Lower 1/3?
Since most LaRue red-dot mounts are lower 1/3, we get asked this all the time. The short answer is...it was "by request". The long explanation is, it's really all about reducing clutter, and always being ready. Our Aimpoint and EOTech mounts are optimally designed for weapon systems that run with fixed sights or BUIS's deployed in the upright position. Since it takes time to deploy flip-up irons, we here at LaRue (and many instructors) recommend you operate with the irons upright when possible. Chances are, if you actually need your irons, you're getting pretty busy, with at least one threat occupying your attention. Keeping them up, but out of the way, is the best of both worlds. Our lower-1/3 design keeps those irons out of the way, until they are needed. Clutter in you field of view (FOV) isn't a good thing...with respect to the popular T1 micro, an upright rear sight can optically cover roughly 50% of the FOV. You can cover the front of an Aimpoint all you want, and still use the sight (keeping both eyes open), but covering the rear obstructs both target and reticle. (see the pic below). 
Years ago, I was at a carbine class where the student next to me was noticeably lagging-behind during the live-fire drills. The instructor asked what the issue was, he said he was having problems "precisely lining-up the irons with the EOTech reticle"....and the cluttered view made it "hard to find the target". He wasn't super slow, just slightly slower than everyone else. After we removed his irons, and he almost instantly shot faster when given an unobstructed view, and began using the reticle the way it was intended. It wasn't the last time I observed this behavior. "What about my cheek weld?" Well...cheek weld is one of the most important factors that provide successful results when precision shooting. Especially when using high-magnification...We make several different mount heights for rifle scopes that keep that issue in mind. That being said, cheek weld with a non-magnified red-dot optic (like an Aimpoint or an EOTech) is marginally more important than proper cheek weld with an aiming laser. Generally speaking, if you see the reticle, you're operational. Most people find the cheek weld with our mounts for these optics to be more than adequate, and the shift to the lower 1/3 for irons is minimal and intuitive. Keep in mind, Aimpoints and EOTechs are intended to be used while in a variety of firing positions, many of which have little, or no cheek weld. If you are concentrating on cheek weld too much, you are not using the technology to it's fullest. Hope all this helps clarify... Even when you use the lower-1/3 method, the dot can be used "centered" in the tube. When both irons and dot zeroed, you can hit any target you can put the dot on, anywhere in the viewing area...independent of the irons. When you shift your eye position to the irons, the dot will follow (unless you turn the unit off). 
As you move your head, and keep the weapon steady, the dot will not move. That's the beauty of a red dot (like Aimpoints and EOTechs). The red dot and the Irons work completely independent of each other. It's a common misconception that you need to center the red dot and the irons in the viewing area. 
Another illustration that reinforces the advantages of a 1/1 red dot (like this Aimpoint CompM4) If you can see it, you can hit it. |
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Mark,
I appreciate you taking the time to respond and post all of that but unfortunately, it didn't really answer my question. As I stated in my original post, I am already aware of the pros and cons regarding lower 1/3 co-witness vs. absolute. While I understand why many prefer the lower 1/3 style, I do not happen to fall into that group. I'm not looking to for a debate of the merits of each style but right, wrong or indifferent, I'm sure you're already aware that many people still prefer absolute co-witness The real question is... Since LaRue Tactical already offers users of the M4 and H1/T1 sights the option to choose which height they prefer, why doesn't LaRue offer the same option to M2/M3/PRO users? Would it really be that hard or cost prohibitive to offer both heights to those users as well? I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the LT-129 mount might be problematic to alter but it shouldn't be that hard to produce the LT-150 mount in a absolute co-witness height? Thanks! |
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Quoted: Quoted: I learned something today. Thanks Mark!  Same here  Thanks Mark http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink004.gifMinus I like to keep my backups folded, so I could go either way On my HD gun, I run a fixed BUIS, with a ML-3 in a Larue LT-150 mount. Works great exactly as described. I've practiced having the dot fail, and just shift my head so slightly, and I am back in the game. Works great. Another quick tip, if you have astigmatism like I do, when you are lining up a precise shot at distance (such as for zeroing), you can line up the dot through the rear sight (don't worry about the front sight, if I have fold downs, I usually leave that down for this). It will make the dot appear round, which will give you a more precise aiming point. Also has the side benefit of keeping your head in one consistent position for all shots.  |
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Quoted:
I am gonna say the demand for the LT-150 and LT-129 in absolute co-witness is just not enough for LT to produce in quantity. I do understand and agree with the OP, but it is not practical for LT to produce a few hundred or more for the few who desire them! Well maybe we need a poll. With as many AR's as there are out there a few hundred should be easy to sell even if we are in the margin. I am a diehard in the absolute cowitness camp. Had to go with an alternate source for my M3 mount. |
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Quoted:
I am gonna say the demand for the LT-150 and LT-129 in absolute co-witness is just not enough for LT to produce in quantity. I do understand and agree with the OP, but it is not practical for LT to produce a few hundred or more for the few who desire them! Apparently there was enough demand to make the LT-751 mount so I find it hard to believe there isn't enough demand for a A-CW version of the LT-150? |
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Quoted:
Apparently there was enough demand to make the LT-751 mount so I find it hard to believe there isn't enough demand for a A-CW version of the LT-150? Maybe start a poll like Dan suggested. I bet if you got enough interest, LT just might make it happen. Good Luck! And you at least have another vote here!
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Apparently there was enough demand to make the LT-751 mount so I find it hard to believe there isn't enough demand for a A-CW version of the LT-150? Maybe start a poll like Dan suggested. I bet if you got enough interest, LT just might make it happen. Good Luck! And you at least have another vote here! Just send them an email with a product suggestion. Give them a chance to catch up on current business before hammering them for something else. |
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Quoted:
Just send them an email with a product suggestion. Give them a chance to catch up on current business before hammering them for something else. I agree with this! It is gonna be awhile before we see any new product I think. A poll for interest may help support your email to LT! |
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Quoted:
Just send them an email with a product suggestion. Give them a chance to catch up on current business before hammering them for something else. Just to be clear, I'm not hammering anyone or demanding anything. I'm simply asking a question. LaRue has been making mounts for close to 10 years now so I'm sure this subject has come up and been discussed by the fine folks at LaRue before. I'm just asking did the decision not to make them come from a perceived lack of demand or is there some technical detail holding it back? |
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While the enthusiasm and the support in this thread is duly-noted...we really don't get a lot of folks screaming for an absolute cowitness M2/M3 mount. In the grand scheme of things...the demand just hasn't been there (folks that come to us, for the most part...are lower 1/3 users) . And thanks to current events, quality-time making chips on our CNC Mills has become a premium.
As for the other Aimpoint mounts... The LT659 series does not offer a true absolute model. Even though we call it "absolute", the LT659NV sets the irons just a fraction below dead-center (is actually designed to line-up perfectly with USGI PVS-14 mounts). We figure it's close enough to say absolute. We don't sell a lot of them. The standard LT659 reigns supreme. The T1/H1 optics are far more popular, and have garnered more attention. That being said...the few folks that have bought the "absolute" versions those models don't really amount to much...and seem to buy the lower 1/3 shortly after. The LT660 (Tall mount) continues to be one of our best-selling products. |
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Quoted:
While the enthusiasm and the support in this thread is duly-noted...we really don't get a lot of folks screaming for an absolute cowitness M2/M3 mount. In the grand scheme of things...the demand just hasn't been there (folks that come to us, for the most part...are lower 1/3 users) Well I don't doubt that us absolute co-witness'ers are in the minority but I think there are enough of us to justify offering that option? Quoted:
. And thanks to current events, quality-time making chips on our CNC Mills has become a premium. I fully get that
Quoted:
The LT659 series does not offer a true absolute model. Even though we call it "absolute", the LT659NV sets the irons just a fraction below dead-center (is actually designed to line-up perfectly with USGI PVS-14 mounts). We figure it's close enough to say absolute. We don't sell a lot of them. The standard LT659 reigns supreme. I actually have one of the LT659NV mounts on my M4s and love it. I also have an LT-104 on my reece and love it as well! 
Quoted:
The T1/H1 optics are far more popular, and have garnered more attention. That being said...the few folks that have bought the "absolute" versions those models don't really amount to much...and seem to buy the lower 1/3 shortly after. The LT660 (Tall mount) continues to be one of our best-selling products. I know the H1\T1 sights are very popular but having owned a T1 sight myself, I really don't understand the appeal (at least on the AR platform)? The weight savings is minimal at best and the whole thing about their size making them less obtrusive is, while technically true, overblown as an advantage IMO. I'm also surprised that the H1\T1's sell as well as they do since the PRO model came out? From a price vs performance perspective, I think the PRO blows away the H1\T1's but again, that's just my opinion. I also wonder if part of the reason you don't sell more of the M2/M3/PRO models is because you don't have an absolute co-witness mount for it? Anyway. Thanks for "listening" and responding. I hope once things settle down a little you guys might reconsidering this? I'm not in the manufacturing field so I have no idea what it would take (cost and time wise) to add this option? While there may or may not be a huge demand for it, I think there is at least enough demand to make it worth offering? I just know that I have tried lower 1/3 co-witness mounts and don't care for them so while I'd rather use a LaRue mount, I will be forced to go another way in this case. 
Thanks again!
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