Posted: 4/11/2015 7:12:19 AM EDT
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Is there any NV product which is still recommended for use as both a NV monocular and alternately mounted in front of an optic for NV? Previously, I thought the PVS-14 would serve that role, but I've read enough about the shortcomings when front mounted to know that's not ideal.
The mission will require occasional use as an NV device for training scenarios, in tandem with an IR laser. Secondarily (and separately), it will be used in front of a Leupold 67940 on an m110 platform as a NV optic enhancer. Typically, I suppose the PVS-14 or a binocular combined with a UNS/PVS-22 would be ideal, but that's way outside my allocated budget. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I've read enough material that my eyes are bleeding. But I am willing to read more if someone has suggested links. I'm not looking for the easy answer, I'm just looking for the North Star. Thanks. |
| Normally folks mount the -14 behind their red dot optic. I've tried a few times with different optics and mounting infront of a magnified optic is a no go. You'll need a CNVD like a PVS-22 or a WASP if and when they are relaesed. And a dedicated helmet mounted device. I'm curious as to what exactly it is you are doing? |
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Thanks.
Primary mission is ground based civilian SAR. Secondary is simply trying to squeeze the weapons based utility out of the device. The latter is probably a mistake, especially as it relates to the PVS-14 and issues such as weapons shock on the device, clarity, POA challenges, etc. It sounds like ideally, two devices work best and given my primary use a good NV binocular may best serve my purpose. I really can't spring for an additional $7.5+ the UNS will cost just for utility. If there is Gen 3 binocular with a reasonable price point that best fits this mission, I am open to suggestions. |
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I you don't need the monocular helmet mounted perhaps something like the Armasight CO Mini or CO MR along with the 3x eye piece adapter Armasight sells for them would work.
Both are clip ons but use in conjunction with the 3x eye piece might suit your needs. JPK |
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Quoted:
I you don't need the monocular helmet mounted perhaps something like the Armasight CO Mini or CO MR along with the 3x eye piece adapter Armasight sells for them would work. Both are clip ons but use in conjunction with the 3x eye piece might suit your needs. JPK I don't think he's in the market for air soft gear, he seems somewhat serious and his purchase may be utilized to save a life, not something I'd trust with substandard Russian gear. |
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Quoted:
I don't think he's in the market for air soft gear, he seems somewhat serious and his purchase may be utilized to save a life, not something I'd trust with substandard Russian gear. Quoted:
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I you don't need the monocular helmet mounted perhaps something like the Armasight CO Mini or CO MR along with the 3x eye piece adapter Armasight sells for them would work. Both are clip ons but use in conjunction with the 3x eye piece might suit your needs. JPK I don't think he's in the market for air soft gear, he seems somewhat serious and his purchase may be utilized to save a life, not something I'd trust with substandard Russian gear. +1. OP is looking for professional quality gear. Unfortunately, there is nothing that will fit both requirements as they are two totally different optical needs. Many have tried to make clip-on adapters for monoculars. The bottom line is that nothing works for series use. The results have been poor and the customer ends up with something akin to a "as seen on TV" novelty device that looked great, but doesn't perform in the real world. I'd suggest the 14 for now since it has the most versatility. It's fine on a rifle as long as it's 5.56 and under. Yeah, you have to put it behind a red dot, but it's a start on that path. From there, I'd suggest saving up for the clip-on site. In the world of night vision, you don't want to get a jack-of-all-trades that half-asses everything. You want to get a product that whole-asses one thing. Right tool for the right job. |
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Wow, thanks for pointing out that ITT Pinnacle tubes are made in Russia, who would have thought?
I guess the ITT Pinnacle tube is Russian AirSoft gear? It's REAL bad form to link a competitors product on another Industry forum, especially a foreign housing, parts, glass, etc. is what we're talking about here. Just because you place a American made tube in a device, does not automatically make it a Mil-Spec device or top quality device for that matter as there is so much more that goes into the equation...No where even close, even though this is EXACTLY what companies do to desperately show "credibility". We've tested enough of these so-called devices which might be fine for the predator hunter of some sort, but when we're talking long term reliability of saving lives, then the real Mil-Spec devices that are battle tested and more importantly field tested for YEARS are used. So you know, a typical Mil-Spec clip on device or any other type Mil device NVD is tested for several years long before it gets in the users hands with thousands of rounds down range which includes all sorts of independent Mil testing etc. When you see companies putting out 16-20 different types of clip-ons and other NVD's per year, this is a clue what has not been tested no matter what tube or fancy video marketing has been done. I mean do the math, based on the typical testing it takes for ONE device to get thoroughly tested, can you imagine how many man hours it would take for 16-20 different devices per year to get tested to even come close to perform the roles on a life saving device? 
Bottom, line there is a reason we do not sell certain gear on TNVC. Mind you, we could have made a crap ton of more money (and I mean a LOT of money) selling every piece of cheap foreign NV gear and fool the masses it does this or that in these serious roles. Our company was not setup to fool customers with crafty video and pictures make believing the gear does this or that. As long as I'm living and breathing at the helm, we will not sacrifice our strong beliefs of quality gear. Assured we test everything around here, and I mean everything, and no we will never ever publish our data. The only data available is what we offer for sale on TNVC that we know performs. Thank you. JPK |
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Let me also talk about "foriegn gear" for a second before someone say's "not all foreign/Russian housings etc. are bad". Let's talk about the Night Optics D-Series scopes for bit. Here's a scope housing made in Russia per say that has been around for 12 YEARS+. I personally tested a D-760 system approx. 10 years ago against the almighty Raptor and shot thousands of rounds through it. While the Raptor edged out the 760 in contrast and edge to edge clarity due to some amazing glass, it was a still a viable candidate of a quality system in my eyes. It took me 2 years of shooting and working with this unit to finally place it on our TNVC web site for sale.
At that time, the nay-sayers (a certain crew) were legendary on the NV forum here on the ARFCOM discounting this scope, from taped reticles, cheap plastic parts etc. Please do a search on the NV archive NV posts and you will see the legendary arguments on this one.  What's funny is, now we have an onslaught of new NVD's made overseas, no one even questions but accepts all this gear as some top notch long withstanding "tested gear"??? REALLY? Remember some companies have16-20 new pieces made every year! 
Let's flash forward to present day, I STILL have the same old D-760 WITH an American made Pinnacle ITT tube I have over 10 THOUSAND rounds through and it has not hiccuped ONCE! In fact, in all the years of selling all the D-Series scopes, we've had ONE RETURN in regards to the actual housing of a stripped power knob that became very stiff with an Alaska bear hunting guide service. Mind you, we have sold well over a 1000 of the D-Series over many years. Now this is what I call a reliable commercial system I would bet my life on. A time tested, extraordinary field tested device that had sure stood the test of time, and yes made in Ruskie land!
Hope this helps a bit more with the point, "cheap gear vs. proven gear". Vic |
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I am not sure who at TNVC added the red text to my post above, though the implication is Vic, but consider this:
A quote from the #1, first, original post, "THE MISSION WILL REQUIRE OCCASIONAL USE AS A NV DEVICE FOR TRAINING PURPOSES ....." Emphasis added. If you all had responded with a suggestion based on you all's experience and broad exposure to the market within the FIVE DAYS the post stood unanswered I wouldn't have ventured a suggestion, and particularly wouldn't have ventured a suggestion of a product you all don't offer. You all do offer Russian and foreign gear, as highlighted by the post above signed "Vic," or readily confirmed reading your own product descriptions. You also offer NV gear that most would consider second rate, as an alternative to first rate gear which you also offer for the same purpose. Not that that is a bad thing, as you yourselves point out on your website, not every budget allows for the selection of the benchmark product for a particular use or uses. Despite the implication of the screed in red, you all offer a broad spectrum of products that are NOT Mil-Spec. Mil-Spec is Mil-spec, only wrt a small population of items, gear, materiel does that actually imply first rate or even better than run of the mill. NV may be one, but Mil-Spec is not necessarily an alter to be worshipped upon. As just one example, the Mil-Spec performance of an M4 shooting M855 is 3MOA. As one would hope you all would know, especially since Vic so highly touts the German optics of such a relatively minor piece of gear like your Torch, American optics and glass are NOT the benchmark. Or even close. It is strangely ironic that you all belittle anyone's marketing videos, especially since your own are so prevalent on you tube. You all appear to be mistaking Armasight for ATN. I am here to learn, but also to participate. Through participation it is inevitable that I, or any enthusiast, will be in error from time to time, misunderstand something here and there, hopefully in a decreasing proportion to the frequency of participation as time passes, exposure and experience grow. I don't mind being contradicted or shown to be in error, especially when the contradictor is vastly more experienced on the topic, as here. As I wrote, I am here to learn, and would always value and appreciate a plain and truthful explanation of my errors or misunderstandings. On the other hand, I do not appreciate and will not tolerate a self contradictory response or a demeaning or condescending attitude. This is the TNVC industry forum. So you all's rules. To the extent that you consider my attempt to help the OP "REAL bad form," I apologize for my inadvertent blunder. JPK |
Let's everyone take a deep breath and sort this out. We can all be friends. JPK: I believe the offense was taken when a foreign competitor's product was suggested on our industry forum. Even if the suggested product was American-made, there's a certain level of decorum concerning posting about a competitor's product in someone else's house. I realize that you understand this as stated in your last post. So, no harm / no foul. I appreciate your comment about it. You are correct that we offer some foreign made items on our site. American made doesn't automatically mean the best and MILSPEC is not always the best benchmark for everything. TNVC's concern revolves around product reliability. We strive to offer the best gear available to the professional and discriminating consumer. Any way you slice it, night vision is not cheap. It should be an investment that lasts a lifetime since you don't want to re-buy it. But, we live in a Walmart society where most people prefer low price to quality. That is where the russian night vision market shines. Armasight is a russian company, founded by one of the original founders of ATN. He left to start his own company, but took the business model. To their credit, Armasight knows their market. They target the budget-minded consumer with little or no previous night vision exposure. When someone who has never looked through NVG's sees even the most primitive tube for the first time, they are generally pretty impressed. And, for many hunters and enthusiasts who will use their NV about as much as they use their AR (very little), the cheap stuff is usually OK. That's why there is a long list of AR makers who will readily sell you a $650 rifle and can barely keep them in stock. Americans want cheap. Identifying and servicing your market is key to the success of any business. Armasight and ATN know who their customers are and they do a great job of providing a product to them. We start to take exception when they start trying to market their products to the professional. At that point, they are outside their lane. There is a reason the DOD does not use Russian gear. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard customers talk about how they tried to buy cheap and it didn't work out. Most ATN and Armasight products are made in the same place: overseas in China or Russia. They import their components, install Russian or Grade B American tubes and sell them at a low price. Their acceptable failure rate is higher than most American companies in this market. Their model is to constantly flood the market with new products every year in a bid to keep the fickle consumer interested in "something new." They use a lot of marketing buzzwords (Generation Ghost and Generation Flag? Didn't know that was a thing) to make their products sound cool. And then they varnish it with slick marketing photos of "operators" using their kit (i.e. guys who look ridiculous while trying to portray some wannabe Call of Duty character). The problem is: Operators don't use their kit. They never have and they never will. Marketing is marketing. I get it. But, when LE agencies and other professionals get fooled into buying this gear for real-world applications, we are not going to take it lightly. Not only are these guys our brothers and sisters in arms, they are responsible for public safety. When you dial 911, they show up. If a hostage taker has a gun to my head at night, I'm hoping that LE sniper is using American-made combat-proven night vision to take that shot. If you have some Russian gear and it works for you; that's great. It's just a different story when lives may be at stake. Please don't take any of this personally. I've got nothing against you, Bro. We are starting to see and hear a lot more issues from professionals whose agencies bought cheap and it's not holding up or functioning as advertized in training, let alone real world call-outs. That sort of thing is fine if we're talking about countertop appliances. Hell, Walmart shelves are packed with $30 "professional grade" blenders. But, nobody is going to die when they can't mix their smoothie due to a burned out chinese gear box. |
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Quoted: If you all had responded with a suggestion based on you all's experience and broad exposure to the market within the FIVE DAYS the post stood unanswered I wouldn't have ventured a suggestion, and particularly wouldn't have ventured a suggestion of a product you all don't offer. That's my fault.  We normally make all attempts to answer questions quickly, and for all intents and purposes we do, but sometimes we let the forums police themselves. ATACORION is a vetted BTDT guy, and his answer was spot on. Sometimes I won't respond when the answer is the exact same thing I would type. |
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Clasky,
I appreciate your reply, even while finding it humorous in that you are calling the kettle black, for example when you condemn marketing buzzwords, which are rife on the TNVC site! And Armasight's "operators" look only more ridiculous than you all's. Other than pointing out again the operative, significant quote in the No 1, first, original post, "The mission will require occasional use as a NV device for training purposes..." I think it is best to let this dog lie. JPK |
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One must also read into the Op as he stated the NV device will be mounted on an M-110 platform, that's a heavy recoiling weapon and the armasight is a thin filmed Gen 3 device that is probably not rated for the recoil of a .308, which is one reason I suggested the -22 or the wasp, and suggested a -14 on a helmet. There are no recoil ratings on the armasight website which makes me wonder how significantly tested it really is for that price. The G forces exerted on a 5.56 is fairly manageable but it's still considerable. A .308 or any full power rifle cartridge is much more abuse on a tube.
For the money the D700 series is probably where you want to spend your money if a -22 cannot be had within your budget. And just run QD mounts on multiple optics. |
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Gotta laugh at this one...
OK, maybe the Russian made housings on Armasight's clip ons enable rating for 308 when using US made IIT Pinnacle tubes, maybe not. You don't know, right? On the other hand, the Russian made housings on the 700 series enable 308+ rating though, when using US made ITT Pinnacle tubes, right? I'm so confused... 
JPK |
| Maybe, maybe not. TNVC extensively tests their stuff and recoil rates it. They offer filmless stuff in many cases that handles recoil. Its your money you buy from whomever you want, but I will remind you that you stepped out of your lane to come into TNVC's forum and suggest a lower quality product. It's kind of like showing up to a restaurant and handing out a menu to the customers to a rival restaurant. It's low class and lacks integrity. Common courtesy you lack it sir. |
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Maybe, maybe not. TNVC extensively tests their stuff and recoil rates it. They offer filmless stuff in many cases that handles recoil. Its your money you buy from whomever you want, but I will remind you that you stepped out of your lane to come into TNVC's forum and suggest a lower quality product. It's kind of like showing up to a restaurant and handing out a menu to the customers to a rival restaurant. It's low class and lacks integrity. Common courtesy you lack it sir. Perhaps I should have recognized the issue of bad form and appropriateness, but I didn't. I addressed my error above, when I wrote: "This is the TNVC industry forum. So you all's rules. To the extent that you consider my attempt to help the OP 'REAL bad form,' I apologize for my inadvertent blunder." As I also wrote, I am here to learn. As must be apparent to you and to the guys at TNVC, I have a whole lot of learning to do. It is beyond doubt that TNVC tests products they offer, I understand and appreciate that. But at least some others in the industry do testing as well. For example, TNVC has written that Night Optics is the source for their current 740 offering with the Photonis tube and others. Night Optics guarantees the scopes on their own site through 308. The strong implication is that they have tested them. Or thinking about it, maybe they are relying on TNVC's testing... On quality in general, and not specifically wrt NV or thermal, it is paramount in some regards, less so in others. And that is where I need to do a lot of learning regarding NV and thermal. For example, most would agree that a Cadillac Escalade is a higher quality product than a Chevy Suburban. But both will take eight passengers coast to coast in the same time, at the same speed. The non-expert would correctly deduct that you give up some frills choosing a Suburban, but little or no utility. As has been emphasized here, two apparently similar - to the non-expert - NV choices may provide a substantial difference in utility. JPK |
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Perhaps I should have recognized the issue of bad form and appropriateness, but I didn't. I addressed my error above, when I wrote: "This is the TNVC industry forum. So you all's rules. To the extent that you consider my attempt to help the OP 'REAL bad form,' I apologize for my inadvertent blunder." As I also wrote, I am here to learn. As must be apparent to you and to the guys at TNVC, I have a whole lot of learning to do. It is beyond doubt that TNVC tests products they offer, I understand and appreciate that. But at least some others in the industry do testing as well. For example, TNVC has written that Night Optics is the source for their current 740 offering with the Photonis tube and others. Night Optics guarantees the scopes on their own site through 308. The strong implication is that they have tested them. Or thinking about it, maybe they are relying on TNVC's testing... On quality in general, and not specifically wrt NV or thermal, it is paramount in some regards, less so in others. And that is where I need to do a lot of learning regarding NV and thermal. For example, most would agree that a Cadillac Escalade is a higher quality product than a Chevy Suburban. But both will take eight passengers coast to coast in the same time, at the same speed. The non-expert would correctly deduct that you give up some frills choosing a Suburban, but little or no utility. As has been emphasized here, two apparently similar - to the non-expert - NV choices may provide a substantial difference in utility. JPK Quoted:
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Maybe, maybe not. TNVC extensively tests their stuff and recoil rates it. They offer filmless stuff in many cases that handles recoil. Its your money you buy from whomever you want, but I will remind you that you stepped out of your lane to come into TNVC's forum and suggest a lower quality product. It's kind of like showing up to a restaurant and handing out a menu to the customers to a rival restaurant. It's low class and lacks integrity. Common courtesy you lack it sir. Perhaps I should have recognized the issue of bad form and appropriateness, but I didn't. I addressed my error above, when I wrote: "This is the TNVC industry forum. So you all's rules. To the extent that you consider my attempt to help the OP 'REAL bad form,' I apologize for my inadvertent blunder." As I also wrote, I am here to learn. As must be apparent to you and to the guys at TNVC, I have a whole lot of learning to do. It is beyond doubt that TNVC tests products they offer, I understand and appreciate that. But at least some others in the industry do testing as well. For example, TNVC has written that Night Optics is the source for their current 740 offering with the Photonis tube and others. Night Optics guarantees the scopes on their own site through 308. The strong implication is that they have tested them. Or thinking about it, maybe they are relying on TNVC's testing... On quality in general, and not specifically wrt NV or thermal, it is paramount in some regards, less so in others. And that is where I need to do a lot of learning regarding NV and thermal. For example, most would agree that a Cadillac Escalade is a higher quality product than a Chevy Suburban. But both will take eight passengers coast to coast in the same time, at the same speed. The non-expert would correctly deduct that you give up some frills choosing a Suburban, but little or no utility. As has been emphasized here, two apparently similar - to the non-expert - NV choices may provide a substantial difference in utility. JPK ...And more importantly longevity which is paramount with quality gear, not gear with a 15-20% return rate. We shoot for under 1% which is approx. 98% true with all the gear we offer. JPK, we all learn here, and the day I or my staff stops learning is the day we better close up shop. We as NV trainers evolve with new training and tactics all the time from new gear, technology, etc.
As for the "testing" side of the house you spoke about. To be very honest here and not to sound abrasive...We take no ones word on recoil, performance etc and we do independent testing on EVERYTHING BEFORE it goes on our TNVC web site. That is the reason some gear takes much longer to be seen our web site. Case in point. IR Defense. We were approached a few years ago when the IR Hunters were first released to look at distributing them. It took us almost a full year after we tested the units before we all agreed that they were a viable piece of gear to offer. We also look at the company who is offering the kit, who THEY are, what their return rates are, how they handle returns, etc. etc.. Their history as a company is also very important, and their made in America claims. In IR Defenses case, it was me who flew to Northern California to talk with the owner, look over his establishment and ask LOT's of questions with their engineers and see first hand their manufacturing process. Not sure many other NV companies do this, but I make it a point to confirm everything behind the scenes about a product we carry. FLIR Govy was also another prime example of this several years ago. Before they moved out of Pittsburgh, I traveled to the main FLIR factory to see first hand how all PVS-22's, PVS-27's. ADUNS and a few other Mil devices were built and watched recoil testing. Once again, even though these are all Made in America and have been battle tested for years, TNVC needed to see first hand behind the scenes about the gear we are offering. Maybe just overkill, but we will continue to do business like this as I feel our customers have come to expect this type of homework from us.
Vic |
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Clasky, I appreciate your reply, even while finding it humorous in that you are calling the kettle black, for example when you condemn marketing buzzwords, which are rife on the TNVC site! And Armasight's "operators" look only more ridiculous than you all's. Other than pointing out again the operative, significant quote in the No 1, first, original post, "The mission will require occasional use as a NV device for training purposes..." I think it is best to let this dog lie. JPK Maybe it's because we do have REAL OPERATORS who work for us? I get it you think that's funny but one of our own is a CURRENT SF OPERATOR. Not a buzz word, just a name many use in that line of work at times. If you think I am lying or somehow do not believe the background or make up of some of our personnel, you may want to ask around here. They're a few of them who hang here and would call us out in a New York minute if I was talking out my ass.  Just saying....
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Ha! No I don't doubt it!
I have a couple of buds who were operators, but now out of the service they are no longer operators. Once out, no one can be an operator, only a former operator. No issue when is one referring to SF member. However, you must admit the term is widely miss applied and over used. IMO so widely miss used and miss applied that it is in many instances a buzzword. JPK |
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Ha! No I don't doubt it! I have a couple of buds who were operators, but now out of the service they are no longer operators. Once out, no one can be an operator, only a former operator. No issue when is one referring to SF member. However, you must admit the term is widely miss applied and over used. IMO so widely miss used and miss applied that it is in many instances a buzzword. JPK I see you are new here so many are trying to cut you some slack. A word of advice, when you are digging yourself in deeper, it is best to drop the shovel first. There are very experienced folks in this forum and the nvg forum who have actually used this gear on a two way range. Others have extensively tested gear under real conditions to hunt game. They don't throw out terms loosely and try to give good advice to all without use of marketing hype. This is not the GD forum. It may be best to take the information in and ask questions before offering cheap 2nd or 3rd hand information to others. As I suggested earlier, listen to Chip. Not because he sells stuff, but because he knows what he is talking about from real experience which he offers you for free. |
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Ha! No I don't doubt it! I have a couple of buds who were operators, but now out of the service they are no longer operators. Once out, no one can be an operator, only a former operator. No issue when is one referring to SF member. However, you must admit the term is widely miss applied and over used. IMO so widely miss used and miss applied that it is in many instances a buzzword. JPK Oh for fucks sake. Pump the brakes, like you should have done on your very first post in here. |
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A simple solution would have been an IM to the OP with your suggestion or a referral to post this in the NV forum vs an industry sponsor forum.
After crossing wires myself in this forum, i find it good policy to limit discussion to their specific catalog items, or items they have said they have evaluated or said they will carry. |
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Apologies if this posting here was bad form. But TNVC is respected, and their comprehensive testing is well known by some people I would trust my life with.
So I counted on the straight dope with no sugar coating or salesmanship...and got it. Now it's just decision time. Carry on. Just don't pick up any pointy objects. 
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Apologies if this posting here was bad form. But TNVC is respected, and their comprehensive testing is well known by some people I would trust my life with. So I counted on the straight dope with no sugar coating or salesmanship...and got it. Now it's just decision time. Carry on. Just don't pick up any pointy objects. You posting questions here and anyone else trying to learn is most welcomed! We train with NV for a living and enjoy every aspect of it. Thanks for your posting.
Vic |