Posted: 9/19/2008 6:33:35 AM EDT
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Is there any regulation in the army that deals with rank inversion, ie: putting an e-4 in charge of an e-5? My buddy was tanking about it but he is in the Air Force and I never heard anything about this in the Army after 10 years in the army and national guard. It seems it's strictly prohibited in the Air Force but I thought in the Army if someone was put in charge, it did not matter what their rank was even if an e-4 (SPC) was put in charge of an SGT. I had a 1SG years ago that put the best person in charge of a detail even if it was an e-3 overseeing an e-4. Can someone let me know how it works in the Army, and if there is any regulation that deals with this? |
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You won't see it outside of a training environement in the Army. Most likely won't be a lower enlisted over an NCO but you will see E5s conducting training with officers and senior enlisted and the instructor is in charge. No regulation covers this. As mentioned already, authority is not rank specific. |
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I see it outside of training environment all the time, but that's just my prospective. Here are a few examples. A Sgt with 2 years less time in grade in charge of other Sgts for no other reason then the buddy system. Not that big of a deal. A Pvt in charge of a Sgt for funeral services just because the pvt is on full time orders and Sgt is not. (national guard). I'm sure there are more examples but I can't remember all of them. As talking to my buddy in the Air Force, I guess they have a regulation against this. I don't know much about their training environments though. I did find this memorandum from the FNG talking about it for their army national guard that says a commander can't put a Spc squad leader in charge of a Sgt squad member. www.floridaguard.army.mil/uploadedFiles/Careers/Military/1218%2088M%20E6.pdf It's at the bottom. |
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When I was stationed in Korea (as a SPC e-4), I ran a remote relay team (e-6 position) and my teammate was a SGT (e-5) I ran the team, but he was there in case the higher ups wanted to cause a stink. See it all the time in training environments though I'm an e-5 instructor, and I routinely have 6's, 7's, and the occasional E-8 come through my classroom. |
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I saw it overseas in a few cases where the senior NCO (E5 or E6) had no leadership abilities and was put underneath a junior NCO (E5 or CPL) who was his squad leader, team leader, etc. It was rare, and only in cases when they couldn't move the person to be underneath a higher-ranking NCO. All sorts of things happen overseas that may or may not be in line with regs but that need to be done to accomplish the mission. |
On most army helicopter flights the Pilot in Command is an experienced Warrant Officer despite the O1-O6 sometimes sitting in the other seat... It’s just the nature of the beast. Career path for commissioned officers in aviation SUCKS. Only a limited time flying and a LOT of time being a staff bitch...  |
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When I was in OIF I was the truck commander as an E4. I would often have E5's and E6's riding with me but I was in charge of the truck and gun crew. Most of the higher ranking people who rode with me were new in country and would ride until they learned the ropes and would work somewhere else. Now if some serious shit were to happen, I would have deferred to the higher ranking person for guidance or direction. Most times though the SSgt's and TSgt's just told me to do my thing. The only reason this happened was due tot he fact I'd been in country the longest and knew the weapon systems the best. I didn't tell the sergeants I rode with what to do and didn;t lord anything over them. I just helped them out. |
| I saw an e-5 team leader lose his nods at JRTC and get an e-3 put over him as the new team leader. He is no longer with the company anymore. As far as I know it's usually as a humiliating punishment from what I have seen. I guess training could have that situation come up. |
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I haven't seen any regs that allow it in the active Army. To do so for any reason other than instructor/student realtionship is demeaning to an NCO and any 1SG or CSM that allows it to happen is not worth their rank either. If an NCO is to be punished for say, loosing his NODS, that corrective action should take place away from those of lower rank. It may happen but aside from above, it is wrong. |
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I'm AF and had a special duty while deployed. Due to my experience and the nature of the job I was frequently put in charge of E4s and E5s even though I was an E3. None of them had a problem with it because they knew I had been there done that and they were not willing to risk their lives over being butt hurt about rank. This is not the standard throughout the .mil-YMMV |
happens in the navy all the time. has to do with watchstanding quals. i was an E-3 (after getting busted down ) and qualified engine room supervisor. i had several E-5s and an E-6 standing watch under me as operators. in theory, and perhaps in practice, i could have ordered them around WHILE ON WATCH, but i was smart enough to let them do what they did. all because i was the one with a bunch of signatures on a qual card. (with all due respect to those guys, i worked in the engine room full time, they only stood watches down there and actually worked elsewhere.) |
| Training definitely. When I was turning in my land nav sheet at ranger school, the cadre collecting them was an E4. He had me low crawl back to the holding area. He was tasking quite a few studs with push ups and other bullshit to keep himself entertained. No one was around to supervise his antics. |
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It happens in cases where common sense outweighs concerns about someone getting butthurt over rank. SOP teams in Vietnam were always led by the most qualified individuals, regardless of rank. In training situations, particularly all-rank schools, it isn't particularly uncommon. |
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It's been covered by numerous posters, but positional authority is not covered by regulation unless it's MOS specific. The two obvious examples are MP's and medics. Both MOS's allow personel to issue lawful orders regardless of rank. Positional authority also exists by position. I'm the unit armorer. I answer directly to the head of the supply section, and then to the unit CO. If an E7 comes storming into my arms room making demands, well that's just tough noogies on them. Don't confuse positional authority with the ability to issue lawful orders. Also, you can't push shit uphill. Abuse your 15 minutes of fame too much and people will be guning for you. 
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I've seen it a few times, mostly on patrols or other operations where we have support or non-combat attachments. You can outline your chain of command in an oporder if you need to... it doesn't have to go by rank, but usually does anyway. |
| I was an E-4 teaching explosives to 1sg, CPT whatever. Here is onething I can remember. I would have one or two high ranking individuals that was set in there ways that an E-4 was not going to teach them anything. BUT!!!!! When I seen this high ranking individual place DET cord in a M-81 everybody in the class heard me bust him out. The funny thing is when we would go on a mission I was asked to join his team. Sometimes thats what it takes to open eyes. The best people to work under are officers that were once NCOs. They remember where they came from! |
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It's been covered by numerous posters, but positional authority is not covered by regulation unless it's MOS specific. The two obvious examples are MP's and medics. Both MOS's allow personel to issue lawful orders regardless of rank. That was one of the major non-medical lessons that the Instructors tried to drum into our heads at medic school. If the person won't listen to you because they're all about the rank issue, don't feel bad about going to somebody higher, because most of the time higher ups will listen to the medic's advice rather than worry about the feelings of Sgt Douche who refuses to clean himself. |
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I am a CW2 Company Commander. I have an 2LT in my company. It happens. It's common. I was in the Hq Battery of an artillery unit in my younger days. The battery commander was a Captain. Both the battalion commander (a LTC) and the XO (a MAJ) were members of Hq Btry. In this case, battery commander was more an administrative position than a command one. |
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It happens a lot in the Coast Guard.
On my cutter, I got qualified as EOW (engineer of the watch) as an E-3. Occasionally I would have an E-5 as my oiler. It just depended on the watch rotation. As the coxswain on a boat, you could be an E-4, and you are in charge of the boat. I see this a lot. We will have an E-5 or E-4 as coxswain, with several E-6 or O-1, O-2, O-3 crewmen. At the range, the lead Small Arms Instructor is in charge. That may be an E-4 in charge of everyone up to and including the CO while out on the line. As an E-5 (and previously an E-4) and a Boarding Officer, I have had E-5, E-6, E-7, O-1, O-2, and O-3 Boarding Team Members. I am in charge, and I am responsible for them. After I left my cutter, or engineering petty officer (EPO) was advanced to Chief (E-7). Our executive petty officer (XPO) was an E-6, but 2nd in command of the cutter. The EPO fell under the XPO. |
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Seen it plenty of times; usually training, higher ranking soldier is a dumb ass, and sometimes just for mission sake as lower ranked soldier may be the most experienced at a certain task. Even seen officers following orders from enlisted.
Been there myself but it was pretty common with us, rank did not matter much when it came to mission. |
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Technicians versus Green Tabbers.
In some specialty units I have been in, we have commissioned officers who are technical experts outside the chain of command. Command of the deployed mission fell on junior officers or NCOs who have direct experience on the primary mission objectives. With small teams it isn't an issue. |
| fairly common in Marine infantry. Often you have situations with NCOs that come in from security forces. They have never been deployed and end up with a e3 as their team or squad leader. Kind of demeaning, possibly, but if you have a highly qualified e3 that has seen combat and a less qualified e4 that has not, it is kind of a no brainer. If anything it tends to argue in favor of more meritorious promotions for individuals in a MOS that has a very high cutting score or is locked out. |
Seen it a lot in the USAF, mostly dealing with augmentees being assigned to Security Forces. Sometimes an NCO gets assigned to an airman, that airman is in charge because of the job knowledge and experience he or she has. Now the airman still has to show the NCO respect, but can give that NCO an order to do something, and he damn well better do it.
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You won't see it outside of a training environement in the Army. Most likely won't be a lower enlisted over an NCO but you will see E5s conducting training with officers and senior enlisted and the instructor is in charge. No regulation covers this. As mentioned already, authority is not rank specific. I've seen it a few times, mostly on patrols or other operations where we have support or non-combat attachments. You can outline your chain of command in an oporder if you need to... it doesn't have to go by rank, but usually does anyway. +1, in iraq there were specific times where we were doing something and our ARNG THT or CA guys were there as part of it. sometimes they were two ranks higher than me, but the attitude from them was always "just tell me what you need me to do"... the biggest time I saw this happening was when RIPing out with the incoming unit. E6's and E5's were coming to E5's and E4's in my unit during patrols asking us where we wanted them and what we wanted them doing. Ive done training events where I was tasked with training higher ranking individuals. as long as you dont disrespect anyone it doesnt usually go too bad. also, while deployed I was the gunner on our vehicle as an E3/E4, I had an E5 driver, and E5 dismount, and an E7 vehicle commander. A lot of times I had to make the calls on placement or movements because I could see more. things like repeatedly kicking my PSG and higher ranking driver in the back and yelling "GO GO GO!!!" as mortar rounds started landing within 25m of my vehicle were easily forgiven. 
it happens. |
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You won't see it outside of a training environement in the Army. Most likely won't be a lower enlisted over an NCO but you will see E5s conducting training with officers and senior enlisted and the instructor is in charge. No regulation covers this. As mentioned already, authority is not rank specific. I've seen it a few times, mostly on patrols or other operations where we have support or non-combat attachments. You can outline your chain of command in an oporder if you need to... it doesn't have to go by rank, but usually does anyway. +1, in iraq there were specific times where we were doing something and our ARNG THT or CA guys were there as part of it. sometimes they were two ranks higher than me, but the attitude from them was always "just tell me what you need me to do"... the biggest time I saw this happening was when RIPing out with the incoming unit. E6's and E5's were coming to E5's and E4's in my unit during patrols asking us where we wanted them and what we wanted them doing. Ive done training events where I was tasked with training higher ranking individuals. as long as you dont disrespect anyone it doesnt usually go too bad. also, while deployed I was the gunner on our vehicle as an E3/E4, I had an E5 driver, and E5 dismount, and an E7 vehicle commander. A lot of times I had to make the calls on placement or movements because I could see more. things like repeatedly kicking my PSG and higher ranking driver in the back and yelling "GO GO GO!!!" as mortar rounds started landing within 25m of my vehicle were easily forgiven.
it happens. I remember you when you when you were just a young buck (older than me) trying to get into the Army! You've done quite a few things since then. |
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You won't see it outside of a training environement in the Army. Most likely won't be a lower enlisted over an NCO but you will see E5s conducting training with officers and senior enlisted and the instructor is in charge. No regulation covers this. As mentioned already, authority is not rank specific. I've seen it a few times, mostly on patrols or other operations where we have support or non-combat attachments. You can outline your chain of command in an oporder if you need to... it doesn't have to go by rank, but usually does anyway. +1, in iraq there were specific times where we were doing something and our ARNG THT or CA guys were there as part of it. sometimes they were two ranks higher than me, but the attitude from them was always "just tell me what you need me to do"... the biggest time I saw this happening was when RIPing out with the incoming unit. E6's and E5's were coming to E5's and E4's in my unit during patrols asking us where we wanted them and what we wanted them doing. Ive done training events where I was tasked with training higher ranking individuals. as long as you dont disrespect anyone it doesnt usually go too bad. also, while deployed I was the gunner on our vehicle as an E3/E4, I had an E5 driver, and E5 dismount, and an E7 vehicle commander. A lot of times I had to make the calls on placement or movements because I could see more. things like repeatedly kicking my PSG and higher ranking driver in the back and yelling "GO GO GO!!!" as mortar rounds started landing within 25m of my vehicle were easily forgiven.
it happens. I remember you when you when you were just a young buck (older than me) trying to get into the Army! You've done quite a few things since then. yeah, and i remember you telling me not to give up on it. The most relevant things I have learned about the military in the past couple years is that if you want something to happen, you have to make it happen yourself. Its how I got in, and how Im still going. Im glad I have superiors and people over me, but if I didnt know how to think on my own I would be dead right now. |
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You won't see it outside of a training environement in the Army. Most likely won't be a lower enlisted over an NCO but you will see E5s conducting training with officers and senior enlisted and the instructor is in charge. No regulation covers this. As mentioned already, authority is not rank specific. I've seen it a few times, mostly on patrols or other operations where we have support or non-combat attachments. You can outline your chain of command in an oporder if you need to... it doesn't have to go by rank, but usually does anyway. +1, in iraq there were specific times where we were doing something and our ARNG THT or CA guys were there as part of it. sometimes they were two ranks higher than me, but the attitude from them was always "just tell me what you need me to do"... the biggest time I saw this happening was when RIPing out with the incoming unit. E6's and E5's were coming to E5's and E4's in my unit during patrols asking us where we wanted them and what we wanted them doing. Ive done training events where I was tasked with training higher ranking individuals. as long as you dont disrespect anyone it doesnt usually go too bad. also, while deployed I was the gunner on our vehicle as an E3/E4, I had an E5 driver, and E5 dismount, and an E7 vehicle commander. A lot of times I had to make the calls on placement or movements because I could see more. things like repeatedly kicking my PSG and higher ranking driver in the back and yelling "GO GO GO!!!" as mortar rounds started landing within 25m of my vehicle were easily forgiven.
it happens. I remember you when you when you were just a young buck (older than me) trying to get into the Army! You've done quite a few things since then. yeah, and i remember you telling me not to give up on it. The most relevant things I have learned about the military in the past couple years is that if you want something to happen, you have to make it happen yourself. Its how I got in, and how Im still going. Im glad I have superiors and people over me, but if I didnt know how to think on my own I would be dead right now. [>:/]Well you have been temporarily deauthorized to think for yourself scratchee. All you need to know is HE, FRAG' EMR, STATIC, JET, EJECTION, LUCKY, COCKED/STRYKER, V/T, WAIT TIME, FIRE, W/P, BOOBY TRAP, ACOUSTIC/SEISMIC, MAGNETIC IR AND CLOCKWORK. 
Since your on the damn internet all the time why don't you do some research and find out who the first EOD tech killed in Iraq was and the names of the first techs killed in the GWOT. 
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It happens a lot in the Coast Guard. On my cutter, I got qualified as EOW (engineer of the watch) as an E-3. Occasionally I would have an E-5 as my oiler. It just depended on the watch rotation. As the coxswain on a boat, you could be an E-4, and you are in charge of the boat. I see this a lot. We will have an E-5 or E-4 as coxswain, with several E-6 or O-1, O-2, O-3 crewmen. At the range, the lead Small Arms Instructor is in charge. That may be an E-4 in charge of everyone up to and including the CO while out on the line. As an E-5 (and previously an E-4) and a Boarding Officer, I have had E-5, E-6, E-7, O-1, O-2, and O-3 Boarding Team Members. I am in charge, and I am responsible for them. After I left my cutter, or engineering petty officer (EPO) was advanced to Chief (E-7). Our executive petty officer (XPO) was an E-6, but 2nd in command of the cutter. The EPO fell under the XPO. This is a very common practice in Naval Coastal Warfare. As a E-6 new to the unit I qualified boat engineer under an E-4 Engineman. Boat Coxswains can be as Junior as an E-4 and have E-6 as their gunners, bosuns or engineers. Overall, it's certainly more prevalent in small units where qualifications and knowledge take priority over strips on the arm. |