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Posted: 1/14/2006 8:41:11 PM EDT
In considering my options for the future, I have decided that the Marines (or some other branch for that matter) may be the best career option. I have spoken with the Marine recruiter about PLC. I'm a junior in college, so this summer I would go for 10 weeks to PLC in Quantico, VA. When finished, I would return to school to complete my senior year. Upon graduation, I'd be commissioned a 2nd Lt. The thing is...I want to go to law school. They have a law program that seems easy to be accepted to. Once I graduated from law school, I'd head up to the JAG headquarters (i think) and train there for a few months. My question is, does anyone have any experience with PLC?? If not, then maybe they have participated in a program similar to this, such as OCS in the Army. The Marine recruiter never mentioned anything about pay or other benefits, so I have come here for more information/opinions. Thanks.

Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:07:56 AM EDT
None of the services have a law program that is "easy to get accepted too." They are all highly competitive. Be prepared to get 170+ on your LSAT and have had excellent grades as an undergrad.

What do yo want to do as a military attorney?
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 8:20:10 AM EDT
Platoon Leader Course is a version of boot camp for new officers. You will be put through extreme physical, and mental challenges. It's basically your interview with Marine Corps. If you succeed then you can join the Marine Corps. In no way is it guaranteed you will graduate. We started with 68 and graduated 37.

If you get accepted to the law program. You will have to attend The Basic School for six months before you go to the two-month law school program. You mentioned speaking to a recruiter. Make sure you are speaking with your local Officer Selection Office or OSO. They deal with new Candidates. Good Luck!

Check this out!
OCS Class 186
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 2:25:26 PM EDT
I was referring to the law program the Marine recruiter was telling me about. You only need a 150 to be accepted. I assume if there was a large number of applicants I would need a much higher LSAT. RS0802, what is the pay while attending and once you graduate? What will I face at PLC with regard to PT?
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 4:35:42 PM EDT
Well best of luck to you - being a lawyer and an Army officer, but not JAG, I can tell you that is not something I would want to do . . . but different strokes.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 4:59:55 PM EDT
Orionsix, would you care to elaborate on these reasons? I'd like to know any details available before I make any life altering decisions. Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:16:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 12:19:04 PM EDT by RS0802]
uscmas412,
At OCS you are paid as an E5 or Sgt. You can search the web and find pay charts with the amount. Once you are commissioned. You would be paid as an 0-1 or 2ndLt. I would also listen to OrionSix's advice. My roommates at the basic school where all lawyers. Lucky Me! They all scored over 170 on the LSAT. The Marine Corps might say 150 but you can always bet the quality of candidates they receive are much higher.

It's hard to describe the PT. The Marine Corps PT Test is a good place to start.

To max the test you must be able to do 20 pull ups. Your arms must lock out between each pull up. Practice that way or you will have trouble at OCS. They are worth 5 points each.

100 crunches in 2 minutes. 1 point each.

3 mile run in 18 minutes( 100 pts). You loose 1 point per 10 seconds after 18 minutes. 6 pts. per minute.

OCS is different from Marine boot camp in that you are expected to be in shape when you arrive. You have to pass the PT test with a 1st Class or 225. Your OSO will make you run these before you leave. Check out the male preparation part of the website. It's a great program to get ready for OCS.

OCS homepage


You will do tons of obstacle course work. Learn to climb a rope the military way. There are also endurance courses that are about 3 miles long. You will run with Kevlar, weapon, and gear. You will negotiate 10 to 20 obstacles. You are timed on these exercises. There are also squad runs with logs. Lots of them. It is on the endurance course and your squad will negotiate the obstacles with the logs. You will also run two different Fartlek courses. One is 3 miles and the other is 5 miles. It involves running to different stations where you do exercises such as push-ups, bends and thrusts. You will do 3, 6, 9, 12 and 15 mile humps (hike) at OCS. You will do longer ones at TBS. You will also do Marine Corps Martial Arts. It's a great way to beat up each other.

It's hard to remember everything as I went in 2001. Anyway, that's what sticks out in my mind. Hope this helps!

RS

edit: I forgot about the Quigley. Look it up. It's probably the best time you will have at OCS.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:24:43 PM EDT
I went to OCS last summer, broke my foot week 6 and applying for this summer.

There's a few guys on this board who are in the applications process.

E5 is ~400/week as of last summer.

You can also take a peek at the photos at www.ocs.usmc.mil/New_Web_Format/Family_Information/PhotoMaster_OCC190.htm to get an idea of what they do.

Running is crucial. You can get by with the minimum's in pullups/crunches (12/80 last i checked) but if you've got a borderline run time you'll be hurting.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 4:04:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uscmas412:
Orionsix, would you care to elaborate on these reasons? I'd like to know any details available before I make any life altering decisions. Thanks.



I have been very dissatisfied with the private practice of law, so I am somewhat jaded.

My experience with Army JAG's is that when they work on the civil side they draw up very mundane powers of attorney, wills, and various other documents that are fairly standard. The more senior soldier that needs more detailied and specific doument will need to have private counsel draft those documents.

Conversely on teh criminal side, you end up either defending or prosecuting rather mundane crimes - mostly drug related and slam dunk - in that the evidence is overwelming - the reasons JAG's have a 90%+ conviction rate is that they don't take any case to trial unless they know they can get a conviction.

There are some posts that allow the JAG to get involved in the orders process, but those billets seem to be far and few between.

I loved law school; and there may be some JAG's here who have a different and more informed POV - from what I have seen though I would want no part of it.

You need to think about what you want from both a military career and a legal education.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:26:10 PM EDT
My reasons for wanting to go to OCS are probably mixed half between the pride factor and a hopefully rewarding career. I've always been amazed by the military and its historical accomplishments. However, before ever considering OCS I wanted to go to law school. The major problem I see right now comes down to the fact that I probably will not make a 170 on the LSAT. Realistically I can see myself making a 160, my gpa will remain around a 3.5. If I'm not competitive for the law program, does that mean I should not attempt OCS? What else do they look at when considering law candidates? I've been trying to contact the local OSO, but he's hard to reach. Mainly, I feel like I need a real challenge in my life. College so far has not been extremely difficult...I need to know the extent of my potential, I need to be pushed. The physical requirements of OCS will be most difficult it seems, particularly the rope climb and chin-ups. I have never been good at either.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:55:52 PM EDT
I went to PLC Junior in the summer of 1984......M16A1s, steel pot helmets, and jungle camo. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done it my life.

Best advice? Be a PT animal before you go. I did the Marine PFT 5 or 6 times per week for a year before I went.

You're already in college so the academic stuff is easy. The Sgts yell at you, but so what, you know its not personal. Be a PT machine!
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:27:14 PM EDT
Go be a Marine officer for awhile and then go to law school later. Your mind won't slip but some day your body won't keep up with where you want to be for the miltiary.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:13:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OrionSix:
Your mind won't slip but some day your body won't keep up with where you want to be for the miltiary.




You know what they say...the memory is the second thing to go.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:20:44 AM EDT
don't talk to a recruiter! make sure you're talking to an OSO! otherwise a recruiter will tell you that you have to go to boot camp first then you can go to OCS. they just want the numbers. when i went through MCT, one of the Marines in my squad said that he had an army captain in his boot camp platoon because he talked to a recruiter instead of an OSO. the recruiter wanted to screw him because he was an officer and from the army.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 1:06:29 PM EDT
That would have to be one damn dumb captain!!
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 5:32:47 AM EDT
Ah at last a topic I can respond to. You have received allot of good advice here and I would like to add to it. My son is in his last year of law school at Vandy. He did OCS PLC . His class was ocs180. First off, you can go to OCS without even taking the Lsats. You are just a candidate and you are not treated any differntly.Everyone is your competition. OCS is a selection process. 54% failure rate his year. You do not make 'bros' like Parris Island. You must prove yourself a leader. Now to get into the Law part you must be accepted into any accredited law school and a minimum of 150 on the Lsat. If you are accepted you are commissioned when you graduate college. After two years you are promoted to 1st lt. Then after graduation you have three tries to pass the bar in any state. Then you go to TBS for 6 months. Again, you are not treated any differently than any other officer in training. Then 5 months Naval Justice school. At that point you are just about ready for promotion to Captian. There is no pay while you are in Law school. When you are active, your time in service dates back to OCS so you get a few dollars more. If you want his phone number to ask question PM me. I also have a daughter in her last year of Law at UF. Total opposite, she is going to work at one of the big firms, all they stress is "Billable hours" She will work like a dog for 70 hours a week. Churn and burn. So, you must decide on what you want out of law.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 5:13:34 PM EDT
I just have one question...
I realize that people don't make it through PLC. What are the reasons for this? Do they quit? Do the people running it not think that they're good enough? What exactly gets you screwed in PLC?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 5:15:44 PM EDT
tag for later
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 5:23:20 PM EDT
PLC-law candidates get commissioned upon getting their bachelors, however they go to law school to get their JD and pass the bar prior to going to TBS and after TBS they RI for military course. These guys normally go through TBS as 1stLts and in many cases Capts who wear 1stLt Bars.

Another option is standard PLC and get accepted to law school prior to your 7th year of service and go through the FLEP (Funded Law Education Program). While at FLEP you are a full time student, get your school paid for and remain on active duty. You owe two years for every year of FLEP. Another option is excess leave, which you have to pay for your school and are not on active duty (no pay and allowances) but you only owe the time you took off back.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 5:24:57 PM EDT
PLC-law candidates get commissioned upon getting their bachelors, however they go to law school to get their JD and pass the bar prior to going to TBS and after TBS they RI for military course. These guys normally go through TBS as 1stLts and in many cases Capts who wear 1stLt Bars.

Another option is standard PLC and get accepted to law school prior to your 7th year of service and go through the FLEP (Funded Law Education Program). While at FLEP you are a full time student, get your school paid for and remain on active duty. You owe two years for every year of FLEP. Another option is excess leave, which you have to pay for your school and are not on active duty (no pay and allowances) but you only owe the time you took off back.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 6:35:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Illinigunner21:
I just have one question...
I realize that people don't make it through PLC. What are the reasons for this? Do they quit? Do the people running it not think that they're good enough? What exactly gets you screwed in PLC?



Numbers out of my ass:
Maybe 20% will DOR. They didn't realize what they were getting into or just weren't mature enough to handle it.

Another 10% will NPQ(Not Physically Qualified) due to injuries.

Then you get maybe 5% dropped due to leadership failures.

For example, my platoon started with 60-odd candidates. We graduated 51.
I forget how many DOR's we had; ~10. Most were just too soft. The three that had (I think) semi-legitimate reasons:
1 guy's sister came down with a terminal illness
1 guy's pregnant wife was sick
1 guy's reserve unit was deploying to Iraq in two months

Two NPQ's, one to a broken arm, the other (myself) to a stress fracture, not counting the I(nitial)NPQ's from guys that failed the PFT on arrival.

I was days away from getting booted due to not keeping up physically, which I guess would put me in the "other" category.

And in the "other" category:
One on integrity violation: the guy copied another's essay.
The other two got dropped after I left; one had an attitude problem (I didn't notice it; he would have been second on my list of guys with an attitude problem - hopefully the other'll wash out of TBS), and the other was incredibly meek.

Now that said, you can tough it out if you're stubborn enough. We had one guy with inch-thick glasses that just wasn't real coordinated, looked a bit like a tall white urkel. Platoon staff obviously singled him out for attention. He was one of the first to get the Plt. Sergeant billet (a tough one), and botched that up. For a few weeks held one billet or another; not doing terribly well in most of them.

But he made it to graduation, and I respect him for that.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:52:52 PM EDT
Well I submitted my rough application to the OSO, but I have yet to meet the guy. I talked to him on the phone and he said there was a review board coming up in February. What does this "board" look for in the applicant?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:57:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uscmas412:
Well I submitted my rough application to the OSO, but I have yet to meet the guy. I talked to him on the phone and he said there was a review board coming up in February. What does this "board" look for in the applicant?



They look at all items submitted in your package. Items of consideration are mainly your
PFT score (get that up; can't stress that enough)
GPA(not terribly important long as you can rub two brain cells together)
Letters of Recommendation (these can count for a lot, esp if you have a fmr military or Marine write you one)
Your OSO also includes his evaluation of you as a candidate. Helps if you're timely to your appointments and make a good impression. Helps a lot if you PT with them a lot (shows motivation and dedication).
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:40:50 AM EDT
here's a link that I think might help http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/class186/part3-mainbar-a.php. I did a bit of research, Naval Justice is 9 weeks not 5 months.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:43:44 AM EDT
ok see if this works
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:45:06 AM EDT
one more try ocs plc
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 12:47:01 PM EDT
Can anyone tell me what the application process requires?

I want to go this summer if given the chance too, problem is I recently broke my jaw and I couldn't eat for six weeks. I lost 16lbs, and I am now a lanky POS. I've been lifting to get it back though, but idk if I would be able to pass the PFT now. By the summer I should have no problems though.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 12:58:33 PM EDT
PT
Talk to OSO.
PT
Get MEPS medical
PT
Take ASVAB if your SAT < 1200
PT
Get Letters of Recommendation
PT
Pass PFT(15 pullups, 75 crunches, 22:10 3 mile run)
PT
Submit package
PT
Get Selected.
PT like a maniac
Go to OCS
OORAH!


Optional: Take ASTB and get an eye exam for air contract.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:21:29 AM EDT
Just got back with talking with my OSO...

and I'm not medically qualified as a result of my jaw break... stupid screws and plate.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:13:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Illinigunner21:
Just got back with talking with my OSO...

and I'm not medically qualified as a result of my jaw break... stupid screws and plate.



Don't listen to him. If there is one thing I've learned about the Marine Corps. You can get a waiver for anything. Contact another OSO and ask him about your jaw. If you want to be a Marine Officer you can get past this. Good Luck and keep us posted.

RS
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:59:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 8:00:15 PM EDT by Illinigunner21]

Originally Posted By RS0802:

Originally Posted By Illinigunner21:
Just got back with talking with my OSO...

and I'm not medically qualified as a result of my jaw break... stupid screws and plate.



Don't listen to him. If there is one thing I've learned about the Marine Corps. You can get a waiver for anything. Contact another OSO and ask him about your jaw. If you want to be a Marine Officer you can get past this. Good Luck and keep us posted.

RS



In my haste to write my original post, I forgot to mention that I wouldn't be qualified for THIS summer. Next summer I will attend the 10 week course. All this does is give me time to get a perfect PFT score.

ETA: The waiver said 6-8 months from the orignal break and the doc will have to sign off on paperwork saying that if he removed the plate nothing would change.
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