[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Question for Air Force basic... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/23/2004 6:56:49 PM EDT
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I was Army and am out now, but have a buddy getting ready to ship to Air Force Basic... He owns a 9mm carbine, but has no exp with the M-16. I need to know how Air Force Qualification works... Is he going to be on a A1 or A2? Do they use the .22 conversion? I have a bunch of the Army 25m course C targets, Is he going to be useing these or what? Im not trying to take over and teach what his Drill would teach, just get him some Fam/Fire and used to the AR platform, I have A1 ,A2, and even SP1. Thanks |
| When I did it back in 87 it was a .22 conversion on an A1. It may have been upgraded recently with the somewhat new and less afraid of guns attitude the AF is presenting these days. In any case all it will be is a ribbon. He could miss every shot and still graduate basic. |
Too many moons ago for me to remember the target. I do remember kneeling and prone positons, and I remember not getting 2 shots in a row without a malfunction. Fortunately for me as an SP I got to shoot working guns or I might not have an AR now..... It was NOT a good shooting experience. I sincerely hope it has improved, all it did for me was make me question whether or not the military had working firearms.
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You shoot an M-16 and possibly 5.56 ammo at a series of reduced targets at 25 meters, not much experience is required and you are shoved thru with little regard. You have to requalify when you get to your first permanent station or if you are Security Forces in tech school. Shoot Expert and get a spiffy ribbon. If you have personal weapons, you would be better off to leave them at home until you get to a permanent station, find a buddy who lives off base and store them with him/her. Carrying a concealed weapon on a military base is a sin, they do routine searches of random cars at all bases all the time. |
| Im an Air Force Security Forces Staff Sergeant and I went through basic in 2000. We shot M-16A2's with real 5.56 mm M193 rounds. From what Ive gathered the AF has been doing that since the early 90's. We shot in basic for familiarization and for bragging rights. The course of fire was 25 meter scaled targets with silouettes ranging from 75 meters to 400 meters. For me the M16 and M-4 AFQC is quite easy, for non gun people its somewhat hard. You shoot prone supported, prone unsupprted, kneeling, and over barracade. AF cops shoot a new course called the Tactical Rifle Qualification Course. It involoves shooting with the gas mask, knneling standing, night shooting, and quick reaction drills. When you go to a regional training center, you shoot the Combat Rifle Course. Thats all done with a gas mask, kneeling, prone, and firing out of foxholes. The targets range from 50 meters to 550 meters. We also have many other qualification courses for other weapons systems such as the M-240, M-249, M-2 .50 cal, Mk-19, and the M-29A1 81mm mortar. If you have no previous exposure to firearms which is the case for many of my troops these qualification courses are quite hard. If you're not an SP, you most likely will not handle, or shoot a weapon unless you deploy to an area where weapons are required and then they'll sit in the SP Armory. The rest of the AF only qualifies once every 2 years. Thats because there is no need for some admin fag to be shooting and taking up ammo for PJ's TACP's or SP's. |
Since when??? I went through in 1988 and we shot M16's, I believe they were A1's. Man they were pieces of crap! The AF didn't really teach us anything. I compare it to a teenagers first sexual experience. Didn't relly know what you were doing, had a lot of fun and it was over before you knew it. I remember 90% of the rifles jammed on the line with my squad, mine included. You were not allowed to clear your own rifle. You had to raise your hand like a dumbass and wait for an instructor to come over and clear it for you. |
They were definitely .22LR conversions. I went in Aug 87 and that was the cause of the malfunctions. Remember the redhat with a nail clearing the malfs? I'm glad to hear it's a bit better nowadays. Btw, those new SP courses sound alot like the old SPQ course. We had to qual wearing an M17 gas mask, required holding the rifle upside down and away from the shoulder.... 
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Nowadays it's most certainly M193. No .22 LR. When i was at lackland, it was old beat up A1 lowers on newer A2 uppers. 40 rounds total. You use the 10 target "simulated" sheets. One round in each target in 4 differnet stances. one mag change in each stance also. |
I went thru summer 88 and shot 5.56, Hell we didn't even get to see our final scores and targets they were in such a hurry to get flights thru the range  You weren't allowed to touch the charging handle or clear jams etc. The current course is 25M reduced with 40 shots, 36-40 hits being expert and it is actually a tricky course if you don't shoot that much; especially the Kneeling and wobbly barricade  Depending on the range faciliates at active bases etc, you could shoot either 5.56, Win 223 failsafe frangible or 22lr for requals..Rifles will be A2's and he should get to zero on a 25m sighting in target with the grid. SP's shoot the course like a WA Democrat, they just keep shooting as many extra shots as they need to get 36 hits ! 
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I'm glad they're getting a LITTLE bit more serious about small arms training! When I went through AF basic, I got WAIVERED on my small arms familiarization course! I never touched a firearm in basic! I was in the PA (Proficiency Advanced) program, which gives credit for passing three or four years of AFROTC in jr. high and high school. For PAs like myself, basic training consisted of 12 days of training, which doesn't count weekends. At the fifth day in basic, I followed my own schedule and rarely saw my own flight before dinner. I was busy, sure, but it was fun, too! Tell your buddy about this one trick: In the mess hall, you're instructed to drink at least two glasses of water with every meal. But the mess hall has soda fountains, coffee machines, and so on. None of the TIs (Training Instructors) will TELL you this, but once you've drank your two glasses of water, you can get up and get anything else to drink that you please. Also, when in the mess hall, there may be a TI who's yelling "Airman! Yes, you! Airman!" and what this individual is doing is fishing for a sucker. The idea is that the unfortunate airman makes eye contact with said TI, who then points directly at said airman and motions for him or her to come to the TI's table. The trap is...make very sure that you have swallowed your food BEFORE you get up from the table. Walking while chewing on something is a very big no-no. If you fall for this, but swallow and clear your mouth before getting up. the TI will wave you back to your table. It's childish, but that's what they do. Keep you on your toes and makes sure you don't forget the rules. Swallow before walking. CJ |
I double dog dare you to try this. There may be no rule against it. And when you're in the later weeks of training, they may let it slide. But in your first few weeks, they'll eat you alive for that. |
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Are you kidding me? Our flight had figured it out by the third day of Basic. Somebody in our flight learned from someone in an older flight. News spread very rapidly. If they don't TELL you that the fountains are off limits in the first days of basic, they're NOT off limits! CJ |
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THey had the desert and the soda/coffee stuff at the end of the chow line. We were specifically told not to be caught near that stuff until we had our Airman's Coin in hand. I agree, if they dont' say anything, have at it. But these people can make your life a living hell. I certainly woudl not push it. |
I qualified with the M17 mask for years - and even shot stages with it when I used to compete. I never had to hold the rifle "upside down." |
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We had to hit a small target, you had to use the sights and you cannot see them with a conventional hold with an M17 mask. You can shoulder it and point shoot but good luck hitting that little target without using the sights. I dont remember the specifics of it but they required us to hold the damned thing in the most awkward position. It wasnt the preferred method to be sure.... Btw, remember I'm old and senile nowadays..... I got out almost 14 years ago....
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When I was an SP back in the early to mid 80's, we shot 2 times a year, AFQC and SPQC. Do SF's still fire the same courses as we did way back when? |
| Theyre starting to change the courses around a bit because the AF is starting to realize that the training they've given us is outdated and unrealistic. I see things changing alot more with the times. Our tactical rifle course is a step in the right direction. We still fire the M-4 twice a year AFQC and TRQC, but now Airmen are qualified on more weapons so they are shooting quite a bit now. For instance, 2 times for M-4, once for M9, if theyre M-203, or M-240, then if theyre Mk-19 or .50 cal theyre out on the range quite a bit in a year. At least by AF standards they are. |
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That brings back memories! But not necessarily good ones! I distinctly remember that when I was in basic, one of my fellow recruits was talked to by a senior Training Instructor...he was asked if he'd like to become a TI! I guess this individual was particularly well squared away, took orders well, had good leadership qualities, and in general just seemed to be good TI material. I thought it was strange than instructors would be asking raw recruits to become instructors, but later I found out that this is a normal recruiting method. Plus it has certain benefits, including instant promotion (temporary rank) to E-4, and a few other perks. I guess enough people accept the offer since they're never short of TIs. I think I'd pass on the offer, myself. CJ |
This is what I did in 1998 when I was there. 80 rounds; 40 to practice, 40 to qualify. I shot an old SP1 with the triangle handguards and a slab side. I even cleared a FTF in time to get the shot off before the RO stopped us. My second time doing this in 2000, I used an A2. I didn't give a shit about making expert that time since I already had the ribbon. |
I went through in 95, .223, A1's or 2's?, plastic bullets (blue) shitty training!! Never heard of the .22 thing? Red hats @ first duty station said our rifles had Vietnam SN's. Hope the traing has improved, got out in 99. Glad my old man taught me to shoot before I went in the AF. Fuck'en joke!! 
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Quite true. Unless you're a copper, they really don't teach you how to shoot. They jsut "familiarize" you with the rifle. At my last qual, we had several field grade officers who had no clue which end was which! The one next to me kept asking me how to do everything. lol...i guess he wasn't listening when the RO told us how to do everything step by step. |
| Yes they still give out 341's, there is no such thing as a time out. There have been some changes down at Lackland and how the AF does basic. They have tightened up on those kids considerably. The AF is going back to being more selective now that there are cutbacks. Besides, I never got time outs, my TI would bang the brim of his smokey hat on my eyebrows and scream at me. Then he would drop me for push ups until I collapsed. My TI used to run us until we puked. I know the Air Force is known as the kinder, gentler force but I at times I often thought that was a fallacy. I saw TI's bounce boots off trainees heads, There was one TI who would make his housekeeping trainees sleep with garbage in their beds. My tech school instructors made us low crawl through what I suspect was a leech bed behind some barracks because the area stunk like shit when were were learning how to low crawl. So its not all pussy shit in the AF. |
My daughter just got back from basic. She got a very worn out clapped out A1 that jammed on every shot. Not one rifle ran (40+). She 50rds of 223 to shoot and qualify with. needed 15 out of 50 to qualify. Definatly not warrior material. The range instructors were more paranoid than I told her they would be. She was also showing every other AB how to clean them. Its real ARMY that protects airbases, not their secuirity forces.
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At Scott, they used to have weekend warriors occasionaly. Not at my current base. All Air Force. She a cop? Most of the tiem you aren't even allowed to touch the weapons other than to fire them. No takign thme apart, as they are afriad you'll lose parts. I don't know what the deal was with firing 50 rounds though.....unless it only took her 10 to Zero. |
| Skypilot, we do protect our own bases, thank you very much. Just for your information, When I was over there we guarded our own perimeter. Had our own patrols up to 5 kilcks outside the perimeter. We had Army around with us but they were to busy doing their own thing. We guarded them and their equpiment. I even pulled security for Army vehicles that broke down and were left behind by the Army. Air Force Security Forces are also being inttegrated with the Army for convoy duty and site security. Also by the way, we even guard ARMY Special Forces camps because they've requested us. So skypilot get your facts straight, the Army has never guarded anything for me when I was overseas, it was always he other way around. And besides, the way the Army does their security its no wonder one of their chowhalls got blown to shit. Im sorry all those fine soldiers had to die, but when you let TCN's run amok around bases like they do its no wonder shit like this happens. Our bases like Talil, Balad, and Kirkuk get mortared alot but they havent been able to set off an IED within an Air Base perimeter yet, thats because Air Force Security Forces are standing watch. |
Definitely dont know what you're talking about. Security Police (now SF) has a long history of defending air bases and air assets. We spent alot of time in the field on deployments humping everything from The M60 and M203 all the way to mortars and M2 and Mk19s. I must have imagined all the time behind the M60? Btw, take a peek at www.volantscorpion.com I'm no defender of the AF attitude on firearms training but get your facts straight on the SPs or SFs as they are now known. Btw, we ALWAYS carried LOADED weapons unlike the army. |
| Mr45Auto is indeed correct. +1 I always love to read posts from people who have never spent a day in the service or if they have run off at the mouth about what SP's do. If you've never walked a fenceline or worked a drop arm, searched vehicles for 12 hours straight, or worked 30 days straight only eating one MRE a day and only getting to take a whores bath and getting no sleep because you're busting your ass to keep the rest of the base secure, then I suggest keeping your damn mouths shut. |
I am an old SAC LE and we ALWAYS carried a loaded weapon. My best friend was and ABN MP and the tales he told me were sad, they were not entrusted with a live mag in either their M-16's or sidearms. |
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R-32, Students do not shoot .22 conversions in BMT at Lackalnd AFB. They will shoot a M-16A2 rifle with M193 ammunition. They will not shoot paper plates, though it might not be the Marine Corps it is not a complete circus. I have an inside track on this sort of thing if you want more info get in touch with me. Scorpion34 OUT! 
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Sorry, I just can't help it................. After your previous post regarding "Admin Fags" and the need not to waste ammo so the real AF warfighters can do their jobs..... Give me a break! Also..........If you don't like your job bucko, retrain!!!!! ..........unless of course you don't have the AQE scores for it. Because as most "Admin Fags" (I suppose my chosen career field - Personnel/3S071- would qualify) in the USAF know, if you don't have a guaranteed job when you report to basic, you become either a cook or a cop. Also, I see you think you are still an "SP". I distinctly remember your career field (3P0X1) being redesignated "SF" (Security Forces) several years ago.  |
| TennVol no disrespected intended. I just get pissed when people bag on the Air Force and especially so when they bag on my chosen career field, I LOVE my job. Ive enjoyed it all along. I say SP because its a link to a proud tradition that the AF in its infinite wisdom decided to erase. Also, thats what people Ive run across still call us. At first I tried correcting people but one young Airman told me, "Your trucks still say Security Police." So Im not the only one in your mind who is mistaken. I used the term admin fag because, Im sorry to say I dont have a high opinion of the administrative career field. Ive had nothing but trouble everytime Ive had to go to our MPF. Those people in there are the most incompetent lot Ive ever dealt with. Unprofessional, no motivation, poor customer service, a total lack of respect for rank and no military bearing. Say what you want about SP's and Im fully aware of the merger, at least we can do our jobs well with the caliber of people and the shitty gear we get. I can also say I can put one of my least motivated Airmen and he will still be sharper and a better worker than any in the MPF where the admin fags hang out. Oh yeah one more thing, my ASVAB scores were good enough to get any job I wanted but I wanted to be an SP. |
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DefensorFortis, a few points I would like to address: #1) Admin refers to the 3A0X1 career field (Information Manager) #2) Personnelists (3S0X1) work in the MPF. Please try and not to refer to the personnel in the MPF as admin troops. It just pisses them off. #3) Sorry to hear the MPF at your location isn't up to snuff. Ever try voicing your concerns to the MPF superintendent? That's what he or she is there for. When one of our hardworking folks at my base brings up a concern to me, I ensure the problem gets solved. #4) We will have to agree to disagree on the the caliber/motivational level of your airman. I brief at our wing's Quality Review Board every month and I review the stats our base JA passes to us regarding discipline problems in our wing . Out of the numerous Article 15's and punitive dishcharges our MPF processes each month, the SF squadron is the leader each and every month.....both in raw numbers and as a percentage of their manning versus the other units at our base. Underage drinking, drunk and disorderly, quitting their post, sleeping on duty, accidental weapon discharges, disrespect to a superior, failure to go, making false official statements.....the list goes on. In my experience (at least in the 20 years I have been in the USAF), your career field has had the highest percentage of least motivated, unruly, rule breaking and overall troublemakers the USAF enlists. Some of my best friends in the USAF are/have been cops. The stories they have told me about the shit you guys get away with blows my mind! #5) Congratulations on your ASVAB scores. You are one of the few who chose the 3P0X1 career field and elected to stay in past their first term (assuming you weren't a six year enlistee). #6) Keep up the good work. I know it's not a job that elicits a lot of thanks from other blue suiters (or civilians for that matter), but I'm sure you didn't enlist just to have people slap you on your back everyday and tell you what a great guy you were and how much they appreciate the job you do. That just isn't going to happen. Just be proud of the job you do and do the best you can. That's all anyone can ask of any of us. Oh yeah, and don't piss off the "Admin Fags" at your MPF....unless you want your pay to stop and all your important paperwork to be administratively misplaced!!!!!  |
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Hell I had an 11month DEP with guaranteed law enforcement 811X2. I scored high enough on the asvab to do whatever I wanted. For some dumb reason I thought I'd be a cop. Unfortunately now that I'm 35 and civilian with no other skills it's a bit late to retrain so I guess I'll just leach off the taxpayers for 14 more years and never get the money an avionics engineer will. It's funny just how far off the original topic this got.... My ex wife was a 702 so you know how I view the admin folks....
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| Tenn Vol, I know what you're saying about getting paperwork lost. I reenlisted in July 04 and I didnt see my bonus until damn near September 04when I had my shirt start asking questions. Noone knew what we were talking about and when I went over to Retentions and threw a fit, they "found" my bonus paperwork and contract. One of the Airmen gave me some lip so I told her to march her little ass over to finance to get my bonus taken care of or it would be her ass when I went to see her boss. Well not even two weeks later this same Airman was made an READY Augmentee. She learned about misery real quick. You also made reference about cops being bad little boys at your base, here its the maintainers. Our jail is full of guys from one unit who got hemmed up for meth. By the way, is Personelist even a word? Ive heard that word before. |
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Thanks for the Info guys.... I was ARMY, and Yes I had ammo. ( unless I needed it)  My buddy is a kid that is a Vol at my fire station, and knows that I have a few AR-15's and wanted to know If I could help him out. I did not start this thread to have a pissing match on who is better/ worse ( even though I knew it could end up that way, I will just say GO ARMY!) I will just use my A2 and have him shoot a couple hundred rounds at the reduced 25 course C targets, and teach him how to ZERO and clean it. Im sure his Reserve Firefighting unit or crash rescue whatever they call his MOS will handle the rest.  He is a damn good kid, and I want to see him do well, He is not a shitbag, he knows how to put polish on his boots, and knows how to keep a uniform clean and looking good. So I could say he will be a credit to the Air Force. Thanks for helping a old ARMY guy out at such fast notice.
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| When I first got to Minot, June 83, we still had M-16 A1's with the 3 prong brakes!! I had some MSgt's who were in Nam telling us that the rifles were almost as old as we were. When I went through Basic we fired the M-16 with the .22 adaptor, what a pain in the ass!!! EVERY SINGLE ROUND JAMMED. And the Red Hats would not allow us to clear the jams. In LE Tech it was different. Seemed like a waste of time to train someone with a weapon system that wouldn't function properly. |
I remember that. They tried that 22lr BS when I was in (89) and it didn't work for s#!t. I think I tried it once, then shot the 5.56 all through the rest of basic and Tech School. The SPs got to play with some of the cooler .mil toys after basic like ma duece, the MK-19, the pig, LAW and Stinger. They still have Stinger cops? NorCal |