Posted: 12/21/2008 1:28:20 AM EDT
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Note: I work in a relatively peaceful town, so I am not like other high-speed guys who draw down on subjects daily. That being said, yesterday marked the first time I have drawn down on someone while working (or ever, for that matter)
A neighboring agency to my own gets a call for a burglary in progress. The location of the burglary is right on the city line, so I head up that way to assist. Prior to my arrival the suspect has fled the scene off into some side-streets with dead ends. I was the 2nd unit on scene, so the first guy maintained the crime scene for a K9 while I searched some side-streets for the subject. The description given out was a large male wearing an orange jacket. I begin checking some streets and hear other units arriving at the crime scene to complete the perimeter. As I head down another dead-end street I look out my right window and see a guy hiding behind a large tree. As I look closer I see he is a large male wearing an orange jacket. Surprisingly I did NOT have a massive adrenaline dump  . I radioed to my dispatch that I would be out with a subject matching the description.
As I exit my car and watch this guy I see him look at me, then try to hide, then look, then try to hide again. I had the car between him and myself as I had exited the vehicle. At this point I order him out verbally. He slinks out from behind the tree, until he is about 3-4 feet away from the tree, and about 15' away from me. At that point I order him to stop and place his hands on his head, interlocking the fingers. He stops, looks at me, then looks around, with his hands resting on his pants outside of his pockets. At this point I have my hand on my gun. I repeat the order to turn around and place his hands on his head. He does so slowly. I order him to turn around and begin walking back toward me slowly. He begins doing so. With a distance of about 15' to go, he continues walking backward toward me, hands on his head. With about 10' to go he suddenly stops, turns to face me, and begins to drop his hands. As soon as he does this I draw down. I have a level 3 holster and as I look back now in retrospect I don't even remember unsnapping the top strap, the bottom strap, and then removing the gun with the required backward tilting motion. I merely went from hand-on-gun to "gun out" in one seamless motion. I remember watching him with probably 75% of my attention directly on him and leaving the remaining 25% on my sight picture. Interestingly I vividly remember seeing the 3-dot night sights in my lower vision as the gun was trained on his mid-chest area. The gun draw was pretty much simultaneously accompanied by some stern orders to resume the same position. He complied and I ordered him to prone out (in about 3" of snow, oops ). He complied and passively resisted (stiffened his arms a bit) while I cuffed him.
Some observations I have, after going over the incident in my head a few times: 1. Muscle memory: I'm still amazed at how I don't remember undoing the 3 different retention levels on my holster. I have practiced with it a lot and apparently this was evident in the seamless drawing of my weapon. 2. Tunnel vision is definitely real: When I was dealing with him without drawing, I was focused solely on him. However, when I went into high gear and drew down, he pretty much became the only aspect of my entire life at that point. Nothing else mattered except to deal with what was going on. I would say that vision is only a small part of the "tunnel" effect. I would say "tunnel senses" is a better way to describe it. It was bitterly cold (about -10 degrees) at the time of my interaction, and I was not cold at all. After he was cuffed and placed in my cruiser, I do remember being extremely cold. 3. Attention to the weapon vs. the suspect: Ideally, drawing down on someone would result in you having a good 3-dot sight picture and be focused on the person at the same time. I would say in this case I was intent on watching him, and my sight picture was a secondary priority. As I said above, I distinctly remember seeing the 3-dot night sights trained somewhere near his mid-chest area. That being said, the vast majority of my focus was on watching the suspect and what he would do next. Those were just my thoughts. They are worth what you paid for them
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If you actually had no back up with you at the time of initial contact, then these are my thoughts...
Never deal with a Felony Suspect involved with a freshly committed Felony with your weapon in its holster... low ready is where you should have been when you saw him hiding behind the tree. Remember the "action -vs- reaction" issue. Never let a Felony Suspect get 10' to 15' away from you... ground them as far away as possible. A person with training and skills could have easily got to you. Never hand cuff a Felony Suspect alone unless absolutely necessary, wait on back up. |
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Great Job Brother... When you get a chance, contact those who trained you and THANK them for the fantastic job they did.... What happened to you - happened to all of us in similar circumstances- your TRAINING took over. Work Safe.... Joe PS - If you don't mind, what type of holster were you wearing? huh you did much better than i always have. I have never covered anyone with the muzzle of my weapon. I would only do that when firing at the person. When i have a person at gunpoint im pointing at their feet or in front of them. I have also never had the presence of mind to utilize my sights. The tunnel vision is real too. I once ordered two people out of a vehilce at gunpoint and just about as soon as i had lowered my weapon i totally forgot that it was in my hand. At one point i tried to open a door or or do something and realized that i was still holding it. After that I figured this out I decided that when my weapon is out it needs to be at the low ready and at the bottom of my line of vision. |
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Only thing I would have done different is drawing my firearm as soon as I exited my vehicle. I work out in the county so it's fairly common to take felony suspects into custody by myself. I agree... it was a risky move by the OP by not doing so. New criminals get scared when a gun is pointed at them.... real criminals know when you can shoot them and may even laugh at you. Here is another thought... you talked about the other units arriving at the scene, why not prone the guy out and wait? When someone is close, no need to rush in. It all depends though on the type of crime and the feeling you get about the suspect. With someone acting fishy, I would not risk it. |
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Only thing I would have done different is drawing my firearm as soon as I exited my vehicle. I work out in the county so it's fairly common to take felony suspects into custody by myself. Same here with my County. You are on yur own. Most of the work I do is with an arrest warrant team. We are dealing either very stupid, or eveil criminals if we are coming to get you. We draw out alot. Before, during and hell sometimes even after depending on the 'hood. That being said, I have yet to actually drawn down on "Someone". We have been lucky so far. Granted we work with atleast a 4, usually a 6 man team. Its no doubt helped keep every one cool when you have 6 gusy standing around in tactical black vests, tends to help kill any idea or thoughts of "I can figth out of this". I often wondered what it would be like and try to train for it. What will happen? Will I have the same expeirences as you? I have come close, but never happened, but I know some day, it will. Thank you for posting your story, I read it intently and took it too heart. Its posts and threads like this that make this forum important, not just fun to surf. Sounds like you did solid. Of course, I admit, I had to laugh when you said he was wearing on orange jacket and trying to hide? |
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Not bashing or being critical of you as I do not know how your situation was evolving. A good tactic would have been to maintain and or shift your perimeter and pin that guy down behind the tree. Wait for K9 and form a hasty arrest team and then make contact with the suspect. Also. + 1 on that gun out and up the moment you identify that threat. Good job and this kind of stuff makes us all better. Thanks for posting. |
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If you actually had no back up with you at the time of initial contact, then these are my thoughts... Never deal with a Felony Suspect involved with a freshly committed Felony with your weapon in its holster... low ready is where you should have been when you saw him hiding behind the tree. Remember the "action -vs- reaction" issue. Never let a Felony Suspect get 10' to 15' away from you... ground them as far away as possible. A person with training and skills could have easily got to you. Never hand cuff a Felony Suspect alone unless absolutely necessary, wait on back up. Thank you for your thoughts. In thinking back I agree with what you've said. I think one of the problems that left me within 10-15' feet of him was that when I spotted him my cruiser was on the other side of the tree. By exiting the cruiser and looking at him I was already right at 15' away. I guess in theory I could have backed off for some more distance, but wouldn't have wanted him that close to my car and me that far away. I also could have driven down the road a few feet before exiting the vehicle. That being said, you're still right. If he had a knife and decided to charge me while I was still in holster and 15' away, I'd very likely be posting from the hospital or not at all. You're 100% right on cuffing. My backup hadn't arrived yet and I was too anxious to just leave him on the ground and wait. Instead I had him proned out and approached from the back where he couldn't see me. Once I was close enough I immediately pounced down and put a knee into his back so he had no leverage to get back up. If he had decided he wanted to rock and roll, he could have jumped up during my approach and gone to town. Thanks again for your advice. I should have done better on this one. It may have worked out fine now, but really could have gone down the shitter if things had gone differently. |
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My experiences mirror yours.
The biggest shock was how calm I was during my first armed person call. My heart rate didn't go up that much, my fingers didn't go numb, and my mind wasn't racing. Afterwards, I caught my hands shaking from the adrenaline, but nothing uncontrollable. My thoughts were running parallel to each other, like so. "Unsnap, come to sights, finger at touch point, look through the sights" "If he doesn't comply in about 2 seconds, I'm going to shoot him." Thankfully he saw the error of his ways and complied and we were able to arrest him and recover the weapon that had been used in a shooting not 15 minutes earlier. If it wasn't for the fact that about 8 of us had the drop on him before he knew what was up, I think there might have been some shooting. That was my fourth night on the job. 
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If you actually had no back up with you at the time of initial contact, then these are my thoughts... Never deal with a Felony Suspect involved with a freshly committed Felony with your weapon in its holster... low ready is where you should have been when you saw him hiding behind the tree. Remember the "action -vs- reaction" issue. Never let a Felony Suspect get 10' to 15' away from you... ground them as far away as possible. A person with training and skills could have easily got to you. Never hand cuff a Felony Suspect alone unless absolutely necessary, wait on back up. Thank you for your thoughts. In thinking back I agree with what you've said. I think one of the problems that left me within 10-15' feet of him was that when I spotted him my cruiser was on the other side of the tree. By exiting the cruiser and looking at him I was already right at 15' away. I guess in theory I could have backed off for some more distance, but wouldn't have wanted him that close to my car and me that far away. I also could have driven down the road a few feet before exiting the vehicle. That being said, you're still right. If he had a knife and decided to charge me while I was still in holster and 15' away, I'd very likely be posting from the hospital or not at all. You're 100% right on cuffing. My backup hadn't arrived yet and I was too anxious to just leave him on the ground and wait. Instead I had him proned out and approached from the back where he couldn't see me. Once I was close enough I immediately pounced down and put a knee into his back so he had no leverage to get back up. If he had decided he wanted to rock and roll, he could have jumped up during my approach and gone to town. Thanks again for your advice. I should have done better on this one. It may have worked out fine now, but really could have gone down the shitter if things had gone differently. I like your attitude. The best thing about the LE forum is we can post things and learn w/o putting each other down. I have "found" myself in situations I helped to create (by being in a hurry) and realized later what I could have done/tried different... that's how we learn. One big thing I learned is it does not always go "by the book" when you are on the street doing the job. I have done things in the past that I would not dare post here due to the deserved rash of shit that would come my way... .
I'm sorry guys/gals, I too am a rural deputy whose back up is often miles away... UNLESS IT MUST BE DONE... RIGHT THERE AND NOW, we should all take a position of "command and control" and wait on back up before approaching and handcuffing our suspects. This is my agencies training philosophy and policy. If they are going to run, they will run... If they are going to comply and stay put, they will stay put Too many of us get hurt or end up killed in one-on-one confrontations... it's not worth the added risk to go it alone UNLESS NECESSARY. Not many incidents make it NECESSARY. |
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Instead I had him proned out and approached from the back where he couldn't see me. Once I was close enough I immediately pounced down and put a knee into his back so he had no leverage to get back up. If he had decided he wanted to rock and roll, he could have jumped up during my approach and gone to town. Are you trained in any type of prone control? We are trained to prone them out facing us with their feet and hands crossed behind their back head turned to the left. . We cover them with our weapon until our weak side foot is beside their head. We holster, squat down and apply a wrist lock on their left wrist while picking their arm up off their back and driving their elbow into our right knee. This is done in one fluid motion so they don't have time to try a counter move. If they resist I can do two things immediately..drop my left knee down across their shoulders or head and apply upward pressure on their left shoulder and twist their wrist forcing their thumb towards their feet. If I get that control on you..you aren't going to fight very long. If you do..you will end up with a dislocated shoulder and a broken wrist.. |
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Instead I had him proned out and approached from the back where he couldn't see me. Once I was close enough I immediately pounced down and put a knee into his back so he had no leverage to get back up. If he had decided he wanted to rock and roll, he could have jumped up during my approach and gone to town. Are you trained in any type of prone control? No sir. We are trained to prone them out facing us with their feet and hands crossed behind their back head turned to the left. . We cover them with our weapon until our weak side foot is beside their head. We holster, squat down and apply a wrist lock on their left wrist while picking their arm up off their back and driving their elbow into our right knee. This is done in one fluid motion so they don't have time to try a counter move. If they resist I can do two things immediately..drop my left knee down across their shoulders or head and apply upward pressure on their left shoulder and twist their wrist forcing their thumb towards their feet. If I get that control on you..you aren't going to fight very long. If you do..you will end up with a dislocated shoulder and a broken wrist.. Sounds like a good maneuver. You COs have the best takedown techniques 
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If you actually had no back up with you at the time of initial contact, then these are my thoughts... Never deal with a Felony Suspect involved with a freshly committed Felony with your weapon in its holster... low ready is where you should have been when you saw him hiding behind the tree. Remember the "action -vs- reaction" issue. Never let a Felony Suspect get 10' to 15' away from you... ground them as far away as possible. A person with training and skills could have easily got to you. Never hand cuff a Felony Suspect alone unless absolutely necessary, wait on back up. Thank you for your thoughts. In thinking back I agree with what you've said. I think one of the problems that left me within 10-15' feet of him was that when I spotted him my cruiser was on the other side of the tree. By exiting the cruiser and looking at him I was already right at 15' away. I guess in theory I could have backed off for some more distance, but wouldn't have wanted him that close to my car and me that far away. I also could have driven down the road a few feet before exiting the vehicle. That being said, you're still right. If he had a knife and decided to charge me while I was still in holster and 15' away, I'd very likely be posting from the hospital or not at all. You're 100% right on cuffing. My backup hadn't arrived yet and I was too anxious to just leave him on the ground and wait. Instead I had him proned out and approached from the back where he couldn't see me. Once I was close enough I immediately pounced down and put a knee into his back so he had no leverage to get back up. If he had decided he wanted to rock and roll, he could have jumped up during my approach and gone to town. Thanks again for your advice. I should have done better on this one. It may have worked out fine now, but really could have gone down the shitter if things had gone differently. We all learn something new everyday we go to work. When we stop learning, its time to hang it up. I do agree about proning him out and waiting, but sometimes things just dont go that way.  I work for a rural county and at times my nearest backup can be as much as 30 min or more even when they are running code, and sometimes you just have to deal with things as the come. Good training and practice of that training will help you suceed everytime.
Another idea if it was availible to you is your patrol rifle. Might as well have every advantage you can. Good job and be safe.
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Instead I had him proned out and approached from the back where he couldn't see me. Once I was close enough I immediately pounced down and put a knee into his back so he had no leverage to get back up. If he had decided he wanted to rock and roll, he could have jumped up during my approach and gone to town. Are you trained in any type of prone control? We are trained to prone them out facing us with their feet and hands crossed behind their back head turned to the left. . We cover them with our weapon until our weak side foot is beside their head. We holster, squat down and apply a wrist lock on their left wrist while picking their arm up off their back and driving their elbow into our right knee. This is done in one fluid motion so they don't have time to try a counter move. If they resist I can do two things immediately..drop my left knee down across their shoulders or head and apply upward pressure on their left shoulder and twist their wrist forcing their thumb towards their feet. If I get that control on you..you aren't going to fight very long. If you do..you will end up with a dislocated shoulder and a broken wrist.. Personally, I prefer approaching from the rear on a prone suspect. With rear control you can control the legs which he is going to need to get up. Should the subject jump up, give him a shove forward and his back is still to you and it is easier to stay out of his grasp. |
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If you actually had no back up with you at the time of initial contact, then these are my thoughts... Never deal with a Felony Suspect involved with a freshly committed Felony with your weapon in its holster... low ready is where you should have been when you saw him hiding behind the tree. Remember the "action -vs- reaction" issue. Never let a Felony Suspect get 10' to 15' away from you... ground them as far away as possible. A person with training and skills could have easily got to you. Never hand cuff a Felony Suspect alone unless absolutely necessary, wait on back up. This. Oh yeah...did he have anything on him? and Was he the guy who did the Burg? |
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Personally, I prefer approaching from the rear on a prone suspect. With rear control you can control the legs which he is going to need to get up. Should the subject jump up, give him a shove forward and his back is still to you and it is easier to stay out of his grasp. I imagine there are 101 different "best ways" for prone control..ours gives you almost immediate pain compliance control. If you get it on right..kicking or resisting will be the last thing on his mind. Once we have the wrist lock, shoulder lock we go right to cuffing..while maintaining the prone control. I can end up with this control hold after applying the carotid choke hold, arm bar take down, wrist throw. Quoted:
No sir. Sounds like a good maneuver. You COs have the best takedown techniques You need to get some, especially if you respond alone alot. We approach from the head to keep away from his feet and..if you control their head..you control their body..if he can't pick his head up off the ground..he isn't standing up. Between controlling his head and pain compliance..he's yours. I'm only bragging about our method because I know it works and you go from controlling them at gun point to pain compliance in seconds once you master the technique. |
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I imagine there are 101 different "best ways" for prone control..ours gives you almost immediate pain compliance control. If you get it on right..kicking or resisting will be the last thing on his mind. Once we have the wrist lock, shoulder lock we go right to cuffing..while maintaining the prone control. I can end up with this control hold after applying the carotid choke hold, arm bar take down, wrist throw. You need to get some, especially if you respond alone alot. We approach from the head to keep away from his feet and..if you control their head..you control their body..if he can't pick his head up off the ground..he isn't standing up. Between controlling his head and pain compliance..he's yours. I'm only bragging about our method because I know it works and you go from controlling them at gun point to pain compliance in seconds once you master the technique. Don't get me wrong, it is a good method, it's just not preferred by me. I always remember a forced cell move we did when I worked at the prison. I was the "head guy" on a five man team. We went in and got the guy pinned down, when he did a push up with all of us hanging on. I don't know what he was on, but four point restraints calmed him down pretty quick. 
Handcuffing, CQC and pain compliance is a big part of our training, especially in the seated position. If there is one thing I have learned, it's that you have to be flexible and take what's given to you. In my work environment, I have very little room to maneuver and have to adjust accordingly. 
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If you actually had no back up with you at the time of initial contact, then these are my thoughts... Never deal with a Felony Suspect involved with a freshly committed Felony with your weapon in its holster... low ready is where you should have been when you saw him hiding behind the tree. Remember the "action -vs- reaction" issue. Never let a Felony Suspect get 10' to 15' away from you... ground them as far away as possible. A person with training and skills could have easily got to you. Never hand cuff a Felony Suspect alone unless absolutely necessary, wait on back up. What he said. As soon as you come into contact with a felony suspect, get your gun out, you don't have to bring it all the way up, but to at least low ready. You said that you noticed mostly the turd and partially your sights. You should, you should watch the turd and keep scanning your eyes, always keep their hands in view. Your sights will be in your peripheral vision until you are ready to shoot. By keeping your eyes on the suspect, you will have a quicker reaction to the suspect attempting to do something to you or your partners. Good job and stay safe. |
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Don't get me wrong, it is a good method, it's just not preferred by me. I always remember a forced cell move we did when I worked at the prison. I was the "head guy" on a five man team. We went in and got the guy pinned down, when he did a push up with all of us hanging on. I don't know what he was on, but four point restraints calmed him down pretty quick.  We had a cell extraction like that. I wasn't involved but the inmate did 2 or 3 push ups with 4 ERT guys on him.
Handcuffing, CQC and pain compliance is a big part of our training, especially in the seated position. If there is one thing I have learned, it's that you have to be flexible and take what's given to you. In my work environment, I have very little room to maneuver and have to adjust accordingly.
http://www.k9operations.com/arfcom/stuffed.jpg You have as much room there as you do in a cell..what are ya complaining about?
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First of all great job catching a felon!
Second, great job not getting hurt. Third, an excellent habit to get into is what you have already done... Debrief yourself. I do this on the way home every night or after a major incident. Play scenerios through your head and teach your mind to react to situations because you have already thought them through. |
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Good job !
I want to work where you guys work ! - around here, a guy 15' away isn't going to comply with any of that, he will just bolt 99.5% of the time. He knows you're not going to shoot him in the back, so why not? $150 sneakers vs. some dude with 35# of gear and dress shoes, who's trying to talk into a radio the whole time? LOL, good odds. And "trying to not go to jail" is a lot more motivating than "trying to do your job" - if you've got an adrenaline rush on, they've got it times five. Hence the saying "all great foot pursuits begin with the words 'hey, come here.'"
But seriously, I agree with the previous "get it out" crowd - if I think I might need it, in my judgement, for my safety, it is in my hand at my side. You don't have to (or want to) be pointing it at people, but it's a lot easier to just re-holster after further evaluation than it is to be Quick Draw McGraw. All the shooting directives I've ever seen are about "shoot / no shoot" only, not "when you are allowed to have your weapon out of the holster." Most of the time, they're going for something they want to get rid of before you grab them (dope, stolen property, burg tools), so use your judgement. So my normal approach would be to walk straight at the guy, quickly, (I want to get a grip on something as fast as possible before he trys to bolt) saying "put your hands on that (fucking) tree" repeatedly (don't say "don't run," or you're just suggesting it), while ignoring anything he says ("is there a problem, officer?" "I was just walking my dog") until I'm close enough to grab him. You can close that distance fast while he's trying to decide what to do. Then we'll talk. If it turns out he's legit he should comply, and he'll take an apology after. If not, tough shit. The person is under investigation, and this is all justifiable whether it results in an arrest or not. just my .02 |
| Good job man. You walked away from that one a winner. You also wisely dissected your actions. As Ted Nugent put it, "When in doubt I whip it out!" Action is faster than reaction. Avoid the quick draw contest at all costs. As long as you don't pull the trigger in error it's all good. Stay safe! |
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Note: At this point I have my hand on my gun. I repeat the order to turn around and place his hands on his head. He does so slowly. I'm not going to read the rest of your post or the responses until I post this. I will edit this as needed. WTF MAN...you did not have your gun out yet...FUCK MAN Slam your car in park, open the door, GET YOUR DAMN GUN OUT NOW!!!!!, get beside your engine block and yell to see his hands. OK...now I'm gonna read the rest. Sorry for the brief rant...I just don't want to see you dead for lack of action. 
OK...now I have read the rest. Good job on focusing on the front bead. That is hard to do. Also, good job on the draw, that means you have practiced a lot and did not need to think about it. I have had that feeling a couple times thinking, "Huh, how did my gun get into my hand." And to echo what others have said, don't let a guy, who is, in all likelyhood someone who just committed a felony get so close. We do the handcuffing and getting them proned out a bit differently, and what I think is safer, but if that is how you are trained and comfy with use it. And as someone else mentioned above if other units are close just air you have one at gunpoint and wait a minute till you can get the cuffed up a bit more safely. I would add, just let the guy know if his hands "mysteriously" make for his pockets or his shirt let him know you will shoot him a lot of times. |
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1. Muscle memory: I'm still amazed at how I don't remember undoing the 3 different retention levels on my holster. I have practiced with it a lot and apparently this was evident in the seamless drawing of my weapon.
This is the only thing I am going to comment on. Your statement is how it should be. Good on you for training to a level that it is automatic. Everyone should be able to do the same. Your firearms instructor(s) will be proud. You took care of business. This job is a constant learning experience. Take what you will from all these replies. Learn from every situation. Be critical of yourself but don't beat yourself up. None of us are perfect. Stay safe and keep training. |
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Great job and kudos to your training and your training officer. I was a firearms instructor for my department and advised against my officers using a level 3 retention system simply because I know that most don't train enough on their own to become proficient with it in a life or death situation. In our our training, we would go through several quick draw situations and it was easy to observe that even with a level 2, some might have problems trying to draw quickly.
If I see that an officer is capable of using a level 3, I would ok it. Most of the younger officers are capable, but alot of the older officers are old school and have been around since the loop and snap time and have no desire to learn or become proficient We mandated that all officers will utilize a minimum of a level 2 system in their on duty holsters and did extensive testing to see which one was the easiest to learn and retain and this has worked out good. I still have a problem with some of the steps to go in a level 3. Push, pull, snap, turn, twist, rock spin around 3 times and yell geronimo before you can draw is great IF you can do it every time without thinking about it, but most don't practice enough and their safety is my concern. Your ability reflects back to your training and practice which shows and that's great. Good luck to you in your career and stay safe. |