Posted: 6/13/2007 4:58:05 PM EDT
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I am currently in the police academy and got a Safariland 6280 for my G21 w/ TLR-1 since it was so much like the 6004s I have used. I like it because it's very fast to draw and seems to offer decent retention. However, one of the instructors at the academy whom I have to respect a lot strongly advocated level 3 holsters for duty use. He's gotten in so many fights and rolled down so many hills that he's come really appreciate the extra retention on his Safariland 070. He also demonstrated how easily the hood on a 6280 could be pushed forward. I didn't realize how much abuse my holster would need to withstand and wonder if I should have gotten a level 3 holster. Is the extra retention worth the complicated draw of the level 3 holsters? FWIW, the only approved holsters are the Safariland 070, 6280, 6270, and 6070, so if I did get a level 3, it would probably be the 6070. |
Yes, and no. First, you'll never hear "he was outdrawn by his assailant". (But remember the Chevy Keough and Brother shoot out where it took a Trooper several tugs to get his gun out, after the shooting was over............. bet he wishes he had been able to draw faster) Next, in many cases where officers are disarmed, it's because they were beat unconscious, shot by a BG's weapon, or otherwise waylaid BEFORE their weapon was taken. Level III won't help that much, if the officer is disabled or knocked out, and can't resist the weapon grab. More than a few weapon grabs also start after the weapon has been drawn. No level of holster will help that. Also, if an officer is constantly getting into physical fights, there's probably another problem besides weapon retention. Finally, whatever level holster you get, you must practice retention, drawing, and re-holstering techniques. YOU NEED to be able to draw quickly, and reholster quickly. Neither one of those tasks should require you to look at the holster, or weapon when you are doing it. Nor should it require 2 hands. No level of holster works, unless the officer has the appropriate response to a gun grab. Level III may be more secure than Level II, but neither is grab proof. |
That's what I started thinking and why I'm reevaluating my holster choice.. I'm a competition shooter, so I'm having some trouble letting go of the speed mindset. |
We use this same holster for our Class A gear. As mentioned with practice drawing quickly is not an issue. If you wear a badge and a gun it is your obligation to be proficient with all your gear. So I think that safe retention is high on the list. I remember the old revolver days with the front break clamshells. I recall many scuffles and seeing a stainless revolver on the ground and everyone checking their holsters to see who's it was. Definitely the wild west days. 
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That about sums it up. |
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I carried a 070 from the time it came out till the time I got out. On qualifications I beat 90% of the line in clearing my holster to first shot. It's called practice. Today if I carry exposed in public I use a 6270. The Raptor in my humble opinion is the ultimate compromise in ease of use and security. |
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I'd challenge anyone to show me solid data to support either position. We know that roughly 10% of the officers killed in the line of duty are killed with their own weapon. However, the FBI doesn't report whether the gun was taken from the officer's holster or from their hands. If the gun is taken from their hands, then the retention level of their holster doesn't matter. As distrurbing number of the officers feloniously murdered never draw their firearm, let alone discharge it. We don't have enough data to know whether those officers attempted to draw and couldn't or simply got smoked because their head wasn't in the game. I've heard a variety of people claim that they are "fast" out of their level 3 holster. They cite performance on quals as proof of their speed. The problems is that most qual courses have very generous time limits. If you want to impress me with how fast you are, pass the Old Air Marshall Course with your level 3 holster. I'm not saying it can't be done but I'd really like to see it. The true test is to fire single shots on a shot timer. My observation has been that the level 3 adds at least 0.5 second to a presentation. For others, the difference is even greater. For an event that may last only 3 seconds, being a half to one second behind can decide whether you live or die. Others have noted that the machinations of the draw from certain holsters don't allow lateral movement in certain directions. If you can't draw while moving, the holster isn't worth much. The problem I have is that too many people try to solve a training issue with a gadget or gizmo. You're probably better off training in weapon retention techniques and working to control proximity than simply buying the latest level 3 wonder holster. I think that the ALS system from Safariland holds a lot of promise. It is reasonably fast yet reasonably secure. It doesn't require any special movements and is something I'd consider if I had to carry something other than a Level 2. |
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Also, make sure you can get your gun from the holster when seated in a car, or with your weak hand. I remember at least one officer that was killed, Columbia MO(?), that had other equipment block the weapon from being "rocked" to release it from the holster. Shot once intially, then 2 more times while the weapon was locked in the holster. (IIRC) |
Is that the officer whose weapon was blocked by the belt-mounted ASP? |
ASP or OC as I remember it. |
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If you get the "safety switch" safariland makes for your holster, it will make it a level III holster. It is what I have added to my Glock 35 holster to make it level III. When I started years ago, the 070 was the way to go. I really like the 6280 more and am also an instructor at my agency. Safariland Holster Sentry Guard Safariland 6001, price $7.40.  If linking a photo from another website is not allowed, Mods, please delete. I'm just trying to help by providing a pic. Not trying to sell anything for anyone. |
A few other guys in my class were talking about that. I'll have to pick one up and try it out. Thanks for the info everyone. It's very helpful. |
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http://tdlabs.com/gfx/holstered.jpg Check out the TD Labs holster. Tremendous strength in the holster design, great retention, and it makes you index to draw. Quick as snot on ice also. I had a woman pull a knife on me, at arms length, and I performed a precognitive draw (I was lookg at her waistband area when she put her hand near her right hip, rocked her hips back and her shoulders fwd, like we all do when we draw a weapon from our strong side hip,) that is, I recognized the impending threat before I understood it congnitively, and was able to step back, draw my Glock, and bring up on target as she brought the knife up. She ended up throwing the knife down as I came on target (Glock up to next to my rib cage) and I didn't have to shoot her. It was only due to the hours of practice and the great design of the holster, that I was able to make this draw that fast. And to put the gun away, you just put it in the holster and all retention devices automatically are enganged. It's like shutting a door on a safe. Seriously, check out the TDlabs.com website. The holster is bulky but they now make a slick sided version. I'm not switching to it though because I will suffer the bulk for the added security. If someone tries to take my gun all I have to do is grab the underside of my holster, pull it up, driving the top of my gun into my side, and the design of the holster will break their f-ing finger. Check her out. |
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A) You're all correct...mostly for yourselves. Facts are always fuzzy in this area. B) You will all, no doubt, agree that you find your hand on your gun (holstered) or your gun in your hand (unholstered) 99% of the time without conciously thinking about it - hence good practice habits. C) To the original poster: Get whatever you want, but you'll end up buying a few until you find just the right fit. D) While it is important to be mindful of this, you are in the academy and should be concentrating on when/why you pull your gun a tad bit more than how...because "how" is going to become reflex whereas "when/why" is the whole game that keeps us coming back to work. E) Good luck. |
When in doubt, whip it out. It's shocking to the avg person if I were to tell them how often I have my handgun out while on patrol Granted I work in an active area and I'm a "proactive" officer, but there are at least 4/5 traffic stops a night where it's getting whipped out until proven not needed. My partner has a buddy he was in the Army with, who is going through FTO with an agency in this state (one that mostlyi does traffic enforcement on the interstates and hi-ways) and he has been written up 2x for pulling his handgun on traffic stops. I guess both times persons jumped out of the car. One driver and one passenger. The passenger one was supposedly because of the law in this state that says we can't contact a passenger on a traffic stop unless we have independent grounds. ????? I'd say that I wasn't contacting that person, they were contacting me by jumping out of the vehicle. Hopefully he gets through FTO and then can do it the right way. I guess even some FTOs don't no how fast "fast" is in regards to shit happening "fast." I say again, when in doubt, whip it out. I've actually sat people in the driver's seat of my patrol car and showed them what my screen/call read and explained why I treated them the way I did. I don't apologize for my actions, but I apologize that it had to happen. When in doubt, whip it out. |
| I'm not a big fan of Lvl III holsters. Most of them fail the "non dominate" hand test. If I cant draw the weapon with my left hand, I dont want to be carrying it. We use the 6280 here and it works just fine. If you are worried about retention, tighten the screw, try to keep the hood up, and brush back up on your DT skills. |