Posted: 1/10/2007 1:21:21 AM EDT
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I posted this over in GD because of a thread that involved a possible straw purchase (as usual, they are more interested in gossip and dinner pics) so I figured I'd give the gum shoes a shot. "No, I am not trolling here also I do not want any politics/dumb-ass laws thrown at me because of this state. In MA, we need, in order to purchase any firearm (not air guns) to be licensed, this includes carrying pepper spray. There's different levels of licensing say from hi-cap concealed to an FID which is low cap long guns/pepper spray. In order to get a license (at least your first issuance) you need to jump through hoops. Even renewals can be a PIA. The police will check any and all records about you and not just criminal, whatever is tied into their data base. When we by a firearm the forms are all filled out including all the information on the gun i.e., serial numbers, make, model, yada, whatever and you become connected to it. Now I realize that to many of you this is a quazi police state, again whatever, but even in the more liberated zones, if you by a firearm, is that firearm not connected to you by way of a paper trail, at least from the original purchase? Also, how many times does someone need to be popped for his/her firearms being involved in anything illegal, even if you can do face to face sales without anything but a sales receipt, if that, before your picked up as a modern day gun-runner? Just say I'm interested in how because here they become another appendage (inc., it seems, complete with your DNA) to you and if something goes wrong, it'll be your ass more so then the perpetrator." So what do you guys/gals think? |
+1 I don't see how any of that relates to a straw purchase, unless you're asking if we think you should do one in order to avoid having the firearm tied to you in some manner. The answer is no. If you're that scared of a paper trail, the best method you can use is F2F personal transfer - but you already mentioned that. |
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To: Johninaustin What I'm asking is how does someone by a firearm for someone who isn't qualified to do so themselves without any hic-cups. In other words, if you bought a firearm for a felon and just gave it to him and he gets caught with it how does this not fall back on you? Like I said in my original post, here firearms are linked to the purchaser, right from the begining and there is a paper trail. How can you basically get away from that fact? |
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To Sagus: Are you goading me? Please read this and stay out of my post. I'm curious as to how it's possible without any ramifacations. If you read a newspaper, our great mayor of Boston blames many of the gun related issues to straw purchases. I'm asking how it's possible, that is all. Edited to add: Here, we cannot by handguns F2F, we have to go through an FFL., Long guns yes, but we need to pick-up forms from the local PD to do so. I relize that in some parts of the country you can do a face to face on any. But eventualy, some of those guns would end up being in the wrong hands. Now at some point, those guns started out with a record, how is it possible and/or how many times do those firearms have to be traced to the same source(s) before it's ended. Like I said or tried to explain, in MA we have a lot of stuff to deal with by way of ownership and it gets worse each time you need to re-new, it's not like selling a bag of apples. |
| The ramifications are that after a crime has been committed with the firearm, an investigating agency will go to the last registered owner and then ask to whom they sold the firearm. They had better know contact info for the purchaser or the original owner will find himself in a real pickle. |
I'm not Johninaustin (obviously  ) but here's my two cents.The answer if that you don't. What you're trying to do is the VERY definition of straw purchasing (i.e. buying a firearm not for yourself but for someone else who is not qualified to do so). |
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Google "Marc Manes." He is the guy that made the straw purchase for the Columbine shooter Dylan Klebold (Tec9.) Copped a plea for 6 years. Philip Duran, who only brokered the deal, rolled the dice, went to trial and got 41 1/2 years. If picked up by the cops, any straw purchased gun WILL come back on the buyer. Hard. |
| I seem to not be asking this right. No, I DO NOT want to make a straw purchase. What I am trying to say is this: If someone makes a straw purchase 1) How do they expect that the firearms would not be traced back to them. 2) In other parts of the country, it seems a lot easier to procure firearms there then here in the form of F2F as opposed through an FFL and if that is so then how do you as a seller, know, A) that you are not making one unintentionally B) How do you in (this case) law enforcement know that it is? This is a curiosity question, not a How do I go about one. |
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Thats actually an extremely complicated way to ask an exceedingly simple question. The answer is time. In most states there is no immediate reporting of the paper trail. That is the form filled out stays at the shop until someone actually asks to see it. Thus, from the time the purchase is made until such weapon might actually be discovered at a crime and then be traced through the paper system, can take months if not years. Thus, the original purchaser, if he is facilitating straw purchases might go for years without his or her participation being discovered, much less formally investigated. On the other hand, there is often undercover work going on to catch shops that knowingly allow straw purchases. It is unadviseable and yes, it can be traced back to the original purchaser. The risk is not worth the reward. |
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I think Taipan01's question reverts back to the Mayor of his great city stating that most firearms are acquired by criminals through straw purchase and Taipan01 is finding it difficult to understand how a straw purchase can even be made with all the hoops they must jump through just to purchase a firearm legally. And his other question was how could someone who made numerous straw transfers stay out of jail. Of course we all have to agree that one way or another, the Mayor of Boston really has no incentive to prosecute Federal law breakers as that would then make him responsible for reducing crime in his fair city. And we also know that ain't gonna happen. |
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To shotar: Well, I did go the long route to try and explain that in MA, we really go through a lot to be in compliance with all the craziness that are called gun-laws here. I've never purchased anything outside this state, except ammo or a scope or something so I find it difficult to fathom how you can basically just sell/give something like a firearm to someone without knowing if he/she is a good guy or a bad guy without the hammer of thor hanging over you? By the way, thanks for not thinking I'm asking for pointers here. But to continue. Then why not start at the manufactuer? Say it's a Smith model whatever, wouldn't S&W know where it went to first? Even if it were a large distributor, Smith transfered it to them no? And when it went to an FFL, wouldn't the distributer have that on record? And so on down the line. I mean, if the chain isn't followed from the begining then the whole thing falls apart doesn't it? Theoretically, at the weak point, you wouldn't need a straw purchase, you could walk out the back door with cases of them. Again, just a curiosity. |
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To Charliebee: Exactly. Edited to add: He is Bostons Mayor, not mine. In my town we can own AR's and AK's. Bostonians cannot. AWB still lives here. We also have up here the componet law. If you went to a range with your friend and you leave with an empty shell casing stuck in the tread of your boots and you arn't licensed, you go to jail. Great isn't it? |
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In fact, that is precisely how a firearms trace is done. Start at the manufacturer and follow to the first retail purchaser. After that however, the trail can go cold. If the first purchaser sold it in a private sale, there is likely no verifiable record of that transaction in most states. However, there might be a case made if say, several or many guns were traced to that person that turned up in illegal activities. While the person might claim private sale, alot would depend on variable circumstances. Most states have a legal requirement to report firearms theft within a certain period of time after the theft is discovered so there would be a police report of a burglary where several guns were stolen at once. As to the factory thing, I'm aware that several manufacturers have had periodic issues with new, unserialized guns disappearing out the back door. These would be untraceable except back to the manufacturer. I think by now though all manufacturers have installed safegaurds and security to minimize this risk. |
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Well, that pretty much ends it then. The hole would be in not having to report the sale formally or not having to maintain a record of sale for x amount of time. But what would it matter anyway if the buyer had given a false identity without a way to check it, nor a requirement to. When I buy a handgun here, it has to be through an FLL, I first need to show that I'm licensed for it, (capacity matters) they have a small digital fingerprint reader I have to do, then the paper work I need to do and the dealer needs to do, when thats done they need to call it in to make sure it's all kosher. If at anytime, I have a pin number that they can ask for also. Sounds pretty bad but it all takes only about 15 minutes depending on the distractions. We cannot buy handguns outside the state and bring them back, they have to go through an FFL. We can long guns but we need to pick-up forms from the local P.D. and have them back within 7 days. Heres the best part. As I said, capacity. If I had an AR with a 10 round magazine, I could legally posses it with a class B LTC (Low capacity). If I took that same rifle and put a 20 or 30 round mag in it, then I would be a criminal because its Hi- capacity (over 10 rounds). Same with any gun. So again, I'm gonna call this one quits, thanks for some of the positive feed back. I would normally say #$%& you to those with the negative but I will accept part of it being the long way I asked trying to explain what I need to go through. Taipan 01 |