Posted: 4/12/2003 4:00:11 PM EDT
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I went though a OC certification course today, and I am glad that's over. You have to be sprayed with Liquid Hell. **** that! When I got home and took a shower, it felt like I got another shot. After being sprayed, you have to fight one guy, handcuff another, and walk 150 yard before getting some water. 20 minutes later I could open my eyes again. It sucks. |
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After being sprayed, you have to fight one guy, handcuff another, and walk 150 yard before getting some water. It may have been uncomfortable as walking through hell, but the fact you could still do all that after being sprayed doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the stopping power of pepper spray. [thinking] |
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I took a shot of pepper spray once; the can I was carrying blew up on me! Ok, this will sound like ComputerGuy story, but I accidently punctured the thing with a coathanger while trying to jimmy open the door to my car, which was running with the keys locked inside. Anyway... I took a really good dose of the stuff right in the face, and for about 2 seconds, I thought "gee, that wasn't so bad." Then it hurt like a sumbitch, and I started crying like a baby. I felt like I was going to suffocate. But at no point was I "disabled". I was able to walk a couple hundred meters to find a place to wash out my eyes without once dropping to my knees. I have no doubt that, if necessary, I could fight in that condition. I've taken punches to the head and gut that were much more disorienting. From that day on, I stopped carrying pepper spray. I've never been shot with a 147gr 9mm JHP, but I'm guessing it has a little more effect on the gremlins. |
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[b]It may have been uncomfortable as walking through hell, but the fact you could still do all that after being sprayed doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the stopping power of pepper spray.[/b] Nothing is perfect. OC spray makes it difficult to see and breathe but doesn't really stop people. I volunteered to be the dep't test dummy for the Tasers when our dep't was considering them. I was able to take three jolts and stay on my feet. I was able to walk very slowly toward the guy with the Taser but couldn't do much more than that. I told them they have to buy the drinks the next time they want to Taser me. At least being drunk might take away some of the pain. [BD] |
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Pepper spray is just another tool in the toolbox. Sometimes its not the right tool for the job. Most times, if some big S.O.B is coming after me intending to fight, a blast of OC spray in the face is going to change his point of concentration from fighting me to fighting through the pain and partial blindness. This gives me a chance to break out the ASP. [stick] Of course, thanks to a near-sighted, stubborn, ex-NYPD officer who used to be our chief, we currently are not allowed to carry OC ("we never needed spray in my day, that's what the nightstick is for!"). Fortunately, whe now have a new chief, and should have OC by the end of the month. Dave |
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Quoted: After being sprayed, you have to fight one guy, handcuff another, and walk 150 yard before getting some water. It may have been uncomfortable as walking through hell, but the fact you could still do all that after being sprayed doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the stopping power of pepper spray. [thinking] Nothing, including your duty handgun, works everytime on everyone. O/C is just another level of non-lethal force to be employed as part of your options. O/C does not affect everyone in the same way, but it does affect most people enough to give you a chance to disengage or utilize impact weapons. College Cop: Glad you got a chief who is willing to let you guys have the proper tools. When I went to work for our now-retired Sheriff about 8 yrs ago, he wouldn't allow the road officers to have spray, batons or any other impact weapons. He stated that if a deputy couldnt handle suspects with his bare hands he would just have to shoot them. Fortunately I was able to convince him to let me train his jailers with O/C, and once he saw how well it worked for them, he let the deputies have it as well. We did have to wait until he retired to get ASP batons unfortunately. But the O/C has worked so well for us that the batons are rarely used. BTW, I still carry my old PR-24 in my cruiser. Even though I am an ASP instructor, I have more confidence in the PR in a fight than anything else. The reason everyone went away from PRs is that no one ever seemed to have them when they needed them. Unlike the ASP, they were always in the car when needed. Well, except for LAPD and that King fellow, I mean....... |
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Quoted: [b]It may have been uncomfortable as walking through hell, but the fact you could still do all that after being sprayed doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the stopping power of pepper spray.[/b] Nothing is perfect. OC spray makes it difficult to see and breathe but doesn't really stop people. I volunteered to be the dep't test dummy for the Tasers when our dep't was considering them. I was able to take three jolts and stay on my feet. I was able to walk very slowly toward the guy with the Taser but couldn't do much more than that. I told them they have to buy the drinks the next time they want to Taser me. At least being drunk might take away some of the pain. [BD] No freakin way you took a five second shot of the M26 and stayed up. 1. Leads didnt make good contact, or landed so close with one another to negate the effect. 3. Wasnt the M26, but the older 7 watt model. |
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OC is good stuff, but it doesn't work on about 16% of people, or at least not very well. Getting sprayed with it is good because it has less of an effect if you have been sprayed with it before. It is likely that you will get a taste of it, or even a fullblast if you are using OC on a combative subject. It is better to be prepared and have some experience fighting through it than to experience OC exposure for the first time during a knock down fight. Also, if you know that OC has an incapcitating effect on you, then you can truthfully testify at the Grand Jury from personal experience that OC is a serious threat to your safety, in case a suspect is ever armed with it and attempts to use it, or BG ever gets his hands on your spray. Think about it. Getting sprayed in training has kept at least one officer from getting indicted for Murder, to my knowledge. |
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Quoted: Being shot with a beanbag or rubber rocket will put your ass down. Not always recently one of our local depts shot a guy with beanbags 7 times before he went down....had to be hospitalized. My dept has used oc for years and loves it. It may not be 100% but nothing is. It works really well on resisters or those not actually attacking. I have been an instructor/instructor trainer for most less leathal from tasers to pr 24. I agree pr24 is my favorite, but it takes training and practice something most officers/depts dont do. Oc spray doesnt damage the goods and you dont have to take the prisoner to the hospital. All these are tools qnd not THE anwser. You wouldn't golf with one club would you?? |
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Guys, the only reason I was able to do that stuff after being sprayed is because I knew ahead of time what was required to pass the course. The guy I had to "fight" was just holding a pad and the guy I handcuffed was cooperative. I also had a partner guide me for the 150 yards. I was incapacitated and blind for 20 minutes. I have no doubt I could still fight while pepper sprayed, however I would not be effective. I know that if I use it on a "bad guy", he won't be very effective. I'll still have to fight him, but it may give me a good advantage. I've added this tool to my bag. |
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Quoted: Of course, thanks to a near-sighted, stubborn, ex-NYPD officer who used to be our chief, we currently are not allowed to carry OC ("we never needed spray in my day, that's what the nightstick is for!"). Fortunately, whe now have a new chief, and should have OC by the end of the month. Dave Must be a real old time, when they were still using the chemical Mace instead of the OC spray. Everyone on the force has the stuff, and most of the guy I work with would leave their batons behind and add another OC spray if they could. |
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As a chemical agents instructor,recipient of oc twice,member of our emergency response team that [b]don't[/b] use inert training spray but the real deal and having seen the effect of oc on numerous combatants I can tell you one thing for sure. OC will cause the perp to close his eyes. Some are affected more then that..a few less then that. I've only seen 1 person that seem to be immune to it and he still had a hard time seeing more then a few feet. OC isn't the tool to end the fight..it is the tool to help you disengage, reassess and regain control. Plus you have to get the perp right in their eyes..not in the forehead and let it run down like some agency's train you to do. With a Def Tec MKIII,IV you don't have to worry about the hydraulic needle effect unless you spray them point blank. It is a great tool but it isn't the be all end all. Any perp that has done time will know how to defend themselves against OC. If you want to see/use a really great piece of kit for searching a room,building..get a Def Tec T-16 OC grenade. It is non flammable so you can use it anywhere. Just don't throw it in water or on a wet floor. The pulverized oc particles are expelled via 2 holes in the body of the grenade by compressed air. we use them at work for cell extractions..if the perp is breathing..it will get him! |
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Quoted: Quoted: Of course, thanks to a near-sighted, stubborn, ex-NYPD officer who used to be our chief, we currently are not allowed to carry OC ("we never needed spray in my day, that's what the nightstick is for!"). Fortunately, whe now have a new chief, and should have OC by the end of the month. Dave Must be a real old time, when they were still using the chemical Mace instead of the OC spray. Everyone on the force has the stuff, and most of the guy I work with would leave their batons behind and add another OC spray if they could. Yeah, he was hard core old time. He used to keep his night stick on his desk and would give a demonstration of how he learned to twirl it while "alking the beat" to anyone unlucky enough to be in his office. He knew John Gotti (he claimed personally). He also once made the statement that Serpico was a traitor and a disgrace to the badge. Funniest time was when he told our only female seargent how women are all right for answering the phones and typing reports, but law enforcement went to hell the day they let females in the "radio cars." He's gone now and our department is finally starting to move into the latter part of the 19th century. Dave |
| I had one of the old timers show me and the group I was hired with how to twirl the baton, so while I was at my really boring detail, I was practicing. I had another old timer pass by and say it's been years since he's seen someone twirl a baton. Maybe we're bringing back an old tradition.[:D] |
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I personally use pepper spray on a regular basis. When I spray someone my plan is not to end the fight but to reduce their ability to fight. Anything that makes it harder for them makes it easier for me. Most importantly, it helps me keep from getting hurt and then secondarily helps keep me from hurting them. Remember, pepper spray leaves no marks! Very defensible in court. If a person even hints that they won't comply with me, I give them a burst before I even touch them. Let it "cook" for a couple of seconds and then handcuff them. Where I work, a few months ago I sprayed a certain guy. Ever since then when I've dealt with him, he has been as nice as can be. I'm still reaping the benefits of that one application of pepper spray!! |
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As a reserve deputy in Iowa, I had to get nailed with the OC and I hope I never have to go through it again. It was in fact, HELL! The instructor was a local deputy and he take great pleasure in his "training". If he does spray you good enough the first time, he makes you stand there and pry your eyes open in order for him to get you good... OC is designed to deter, slow, and immobiolize your target. Once you nail him/her, you make your move while they take in the full effect of the nasty HELL. Once I saw the power of OC, I have great faith in it. If OC does not work on my target, I pull out another tool... It works, not it is not %100 effective. But what is? :) |
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Quoted: Where I work, a few months ago I sprayed a certain guy. Ever since then when I've dealt with him, he has been as nice as can be. I'm still reaping the benefits of that one application of pepper spray!! I hope you don't work at McDonalds [:)] Nope! LOL I personally think that officers should have to be sprayed once a year. I've been sprayed several times and have gotten over spray a few times. OC, while it never feels good, gets easier to handle with time. Getting sprayed teaches you how to function while in pain. There are several officers where I work who carry pepper spray but have never been sprayed with it. That's asking for trouble in my opinion. Another nice benefit to being sprayed is that when you go to court, if someone argues that you used excessive force by spraying them, you can document that you know what it feels like and probably have been sprayed more than the suspect. |
| Courts will say OC training is for a different purpose, trainers will tell you that it's so you know what to expect if you ever get sprayed. A large part of the effect of OC is psychological. It is a common reaction to panic if sprayed. I've seen a guy get a good dose and just panic and turn and run til he tripper over a bush. If you're sprayed, the trained should teach you teach, while you're not working at normal capacity, you can still give yourself a fighting chance. |
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Quoted: After being sprayed, you have to fight one guy, handcuff another, and walk 150 yard before getting some water. It may have been uncomfortable as walking through hell, but the fact you could still do all that after being sprayed doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the stopping power of pepper spray. [thinking] Have you ever been sprayed? |
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Have you ever been sprayed? I have not been sprayed. After hearing all of you talk about it and describe the effects I do have a much better respect for its application. I never thought it to be the sole tool of choice for all situations. However hearing MR09 describe what he did after being sprayed made it sound much less effective than I had pictured. |
| Make no mistake, OC is horrible, and usually incapacitating (to a degree). I imagine anyone who has trained in such a manner as to get sprayed and then perform certain functions, probably did so with lots of verbal encouragement from fellow officers. The main idea is, without good education and first hand experience, you would most likely panic if sprayed and cease to function as you'd like... that's the effect you hope for in a suspect. Close your eyes and drop to your knees...that's the normal, undisciplied reaction. |
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I have been sprayed by other officers or caught my own overspray many times. I have had to suffer through the faulty "guards" on the older model CAPSTUN cans, and have had entire cans dump into my car (not a fun night). I also have a Team Leader who doesn't think I can make a good shot (despite the EOTech) when wearing a gas mask, and have been ordered to unmask to keep "long" coverage with my carbine on barricades. I have caught more than my fair share of OC, and it is important that you are familar with the effects BEFORE you have to use it. I read about a study where they guaged the performance of officers at various tasks like shooting, fighting with a suspect and so on after taking a blast of OC in the face. Officers who had been sprayed before did significantly better than ones who had never been sprayed. |
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sprayed a bad guy that could take pepper spray in his mouth and laugh. he thought i was using the same stuff that he had been sprayed with in the past. uh-uh. i use freeze+P. 1% oc plus the nice afterburn of 1% cs gas. after a second or two, he realized this wasn't the same stuff and he went to jail crying and wheezing like a baby without having to break out the expandable. gimme freeze+P anyday over oc or any other pepper-based spray. and yes, it's the same stuff that i took a shot from during u. of f. training. try it, you'll like it, works great on tweekers and drunks that are ten feet tall and bullet-proof. however, i now prefer the M26 taser over all sprays. i popped a guy with the taser and the funniest part of the whole incident was that after the shock had stopped, he looked at all the wire laying about his chest and he thought that i had actually "shot" him and he started crying. he calmed down and i explained to him that he was going to be alright as i handcuffed him with no further complications and he became one of the most compliant suspects i have dealt with. it's all about the tools. |