Posted: 10/2/2001 5:40:17 PM EDT
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Hypothetical situation: An old friend of about 10 years or so is getting out the gun collecting hobby and has offered you first picks out a really nice collection. Because of fiscal concerns, you will only be able to choose from on of the following rifles. Each rifle in considerstion is in 90+% condition (these are very nice, almost museum quality) and will have a properly dated and correct sling and a properly dated bayonet and scabbard (he was very particular about correctness in his collection). The rifles in consideration are: A) 1903A1 Springfield B) 1903A3 Springfield C) M1917 Enfield Price will not be a major concern and each rifle is in unaltered military condition. Please make a choice and give some input into your answer. I forgot to copy down the dates of the recievers but every gun had a build sheet with it. Thanks. |
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Shadow -- The chances of any of these rifles being in "unaltered" condition are almost nil. At best they'll be restorations. Only difference between a M1903 and M1903A1 is the semi-pistol grip on the A1 stock. Take an ordinary M1903 and slap it in this stock and ***Poof*** it's a M1903A1. There were a very, very small number of M1903A1 rifles produced at the arsenal (in the 1930s) and all are pretty well documented. No original M1903A1s by anyone other than Springfield. The M1903A3 is the WW2 model with lots of stampings and the vastly improved rear sights. Made by both Remington and Smith-Corona. M1917 is almost impossible to find in original condition as they were all put into storage after WW1. Most were cleaned and repaired by the various arsenals prior to going into war reserves. Rifles needing work were Parkerized. Since this was the principal rifle of the US Army during WW1 many had lots of wear from combat service. The M1917 was made by Remington, Winchester, and Eddystone and every little part on the rifle will have an R, W, or E on it. Be careful before parting with any money for "original" rifles. My Springfield M1903 was originally in .30-03 when made in 1905; was rebuilt to .30-06; and appears to have gone thru an arsenal rebuild and put into storage circa 1918. She's "origanal as arsenal rebuilt." [;)] -- Chuck |
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Get the '03-A3. Good caliber, good handling and good sights. 2-groove barrels bother me, though. Having owned the '03 and the 1917, and having shot my brother's 2-groove '03-A3, I say buy the '03-A3. It will make a good hunting rifle, no matter what you are hunting. --------- "Four grooves good, two grooves bad." |
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Quoted: The chances of any of these rifles being in "unaltered" condition are almost nil. At best they'll be restorations. Might not be true. I have my great-grandfathers 1917 Remminington. All serial numbers on the rifle match. Wood is a bit beat up, but it still looks great. No major damage, no gouges in the wood or metal. Also have the bayonette and sling. I also have most of my uncles rifles (served in Korea - M1 Garand and Carbine) and my grandfathers (WW2 - M1 Garand, Nazi marked Mauser, some Polish rifles, and a Nazi marked pistol). All are orgininal, and some are in better shape than others. I took some to the gun shop to be checked out, most collectors jaws hit the floor. You might be surprised what some people have.... Av. |
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Avalon -- There's only one place the serial number on a M1917 Rifle is stamped, on the top of the receiver right over the chamber. "Matching numbers" are therefore impossible [;)]. Are you saying your uncle and grandfather brought their weapons home with them? Unless they were thieves they bought "their rifles" well after WW2, probably in the 1960s. Gotta take many War Stories with a grain of salt. [;)] There has not been a provision for soldiers to keep their issued weapons since the Civil War. Very few US military weapons have avoided an arsenal "clean and repair" program. The M1 Carbine have a bayonet lug? War trophy enemy weapons will have capture paperwork for authenticity, but can be genuine and unaltered without them. Enemy weapons are beyond the scope of the original question. There are some real unaltered US military weapons available. A very late Remington M1917 turned up this week. Post WW1 but just before the contract was cancelled. All blued and apparently never fired and put straight into war reserve storage judging by it's condition. But finding even a couple of dozen in this condition still ranks as "nil" when there were 2,000,000+ made. Bottom line is to treat all "original" US military weapons with a massive amount of skeptisism. M1917 is usually pretty easy to tell if it's been thru clean and repair as it'll have non-maker parts on it somewhere. -- Chuck |
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chuck, youre obviously pretty knowledgeable about these. i've recently come into what appears to be a p17 Winchester parade rifle, all chrome, rarely if ever fired. serial #xxx000. the barrel has the ordnance bomb on it, and "CAI", which i assume is Century Arms. it shoots very nicely, though i think i'll most likely just fondle it, clean it, and put it away. can you tell me anything more about this piece, or point me to a good reference? |
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Quoted: Avalon -- ... Are you saying your uncle and grandfather brought their weapons home with them? Yes I am. I know the weapons were brought home by my respective family members, and were not bought after the respective wars. Both my Uncle and Grandfather make it a point that these were the weapons they were issued during the war. My Grandfather didn't smoke and traded is cigarettes for the other weapons he brought home. I've had them checked out by several people who collect WW2 rifles, and all have told me they are original. My dad remembers playing with them when he was a kid, and many other family members remember them when he came back from overseas. I'll try to post pictures this weekend if you want. Av. |
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Thanks for all the good responses. He is very close to selling and I think I might be able to arrange to get at least 2 of them. Still trying to decide jus what to get though. The person is very particular in what he allowed into his collection (some people might call it anal). |
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Be careful of "war stories." I doubt your relatives are thieves, but they're either telling "war stories" or have stolen weapons. WW2 vintage M1 Carbine didn't get bayonet lugs until 1945, so this one is correct vintage. Smuggling a stolen M1 Carbine is much, much easier than a M1 Rifle. Statute of limitations has run out on these. The M1 rifle will have the lock bar sight and the barrel date will closely match the date of the receiver serial number. If it's original all the other parts can be matched by their part numbers for "originality." As to the M1917 chromed drill rifle, it's got about zero collector's value and is a $200 or less "shooter." -- Chuck |
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[b]As to the M1917 chromed drill rifle, it's got about zero collector's value and is a $200 or less "shooter." -- Chuck [/b] thanks, i was afraid of that. i plainly paid way too much for it. but for this particular collector, it's worth more than 200, i think i'll keep it. at least it shoots straight. |
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Depends. Assuming the rifles are restorations, I'd opt for the M1917 Enfield. Why? Seem to be scarcer than Springfields, better sights than the A1, almost as good as the A3, 6-rd mag cap as opposed to 5-rd, longer barrel (quieter, and less muzzle flash, slightly better MV and range), slightly faster action, MUCH better protected front sight, and overall stronger action than the Springfield. Not to say that the Springfield isn't a fine rifle, it surely is. It's just thst the M1917 is a marginally better weapon whose value seems to be increasing much faster than the '03s in general. |