Originally Posted By DvlDog:
I love these new guys who bring up shit we have done to death for years like we are going to hoist them on our shoulders and carry them around like a hero for presenting some unique perspective or some esoteric knowledge that has escaped us lo these many years.


Gtfo outta here with this dumb shit OP.

Originally Posted By zoinks:
Kudos, DvlDog!

That's exactly how History progresses (as in an understanding of what occurred during the "Dark Ages" of European History,) or History is butchered (as in Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States.")

With human beings, nothing is really ever settled.

Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
About eight years ago, I met one of the Secret Service agents on duty in Dallas the day Kennedy was shot.
Mike Howard
I sat in his living room (with a friend who is a current USSS) and had a cup of coffee. He told us about LBJ telling him to "go get that woman (Oswalds wife) and take care of her". He and a couple of other USSS agents took Mrs Oswald, his mother and kids and drove them to a hotel near Six Flags where they stayed until they could move them into a safe house.  He believed Oswald acted alone.

He was/is, ranch manager for the Brinker Ranch (Norman Brinker was the guy who founded Chili's and dozens of other restaurant chains)  in McKinney, TX. He built his own private gun range on the property with earth berms better than any commercial gun range in Dallas.

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
So here's the part OP left out.

The Secret Service Agent who shot Kennedy by accident was Special Agent Richard McCoy Jr.  Two years later he was serving as a Green Beret in Vietnam.

In 1973 he was shot to death by FBI agents.

True facts.

Originally Posted By FrankSymptoms:
What was Elivis's part in all this?

Originally Posted By RichardM333:
On the evening of November 21, 1963, several Secret Service agents went out looking for something to eat and drink. Some of them drank a little too much alcohol.
It appears that two of the agents couldn't fulfill their regular duties of riding on the back bumper of the presidential limo as they had in past motorcades. A driver/agent
was assigned to take their place. He was given command of the AR-15, a weapon he never qualified on. As the motorcade traveled through Dealey Plaza, a passing train
set off three railroad torpedoes near the grassy knoll at the worst possible moment. The railroad torpedoes are used as a warning device to warn a train to slow down.
They're spaced 20' feet apart and sound just like a bolt-action rifle being fired three times. They emit a puff of white smoke after they explode.

The driver/agent thought the motorcade was under fire and prepared to return fire. He grabbed the AR-15, safety off, finger on the trigger, when JFK's limo driver braked
for an instant. This caused the followup car to brake, causing the agent to fall back and reflexively grip the weapon and fire three rounds with one trigger pull. The crowd
ran towards the grassy knoll looking for the shooters, but found no evidence of a gun being fired.

When the motorcade arrived at the hospital, the Secret Service called Bobby Kennedy and told him there was an accident. Bobby is the only one who had the authority to order
a coverup. He thought it would be more befitting if it appeared his brother died from an assassin then from an accident.

Originally Posted By Oldgold:
I always thought the fingerprints of "Intelligence " was all over this.
I just wish they would release all documents.

There has been a mysterious secret buried within the Zapruder family for half a century. Abraham Zapruder took the famous 26 second home movie of the Kennedy Assassination in Dallas. It contained the entire progress of the assassination, from the first turn of JFK's limo onto Elm Street, through the shootings of President Kennedy and Governor John Connelly, and then the limo's exit through the triple underpass headed for Parkland Hospital with the dying President.

It's often called the "Rosetta Stone" of the JFK assassination since everything is all there in plain sight. It has the potential of making everyone who sees it an eyewitness. So how can there be any Zapruder family secret about it? Yet in her recent book, Twenty-Six Seconds, Zapruder's granddaughter, Alexandra, refers to a 50 year-long taboo within the Zapruder family against even discussing the film.

Alexandra claims not to know what the "taboo" is all about. Her father Henry, an able Washington lawyer, wanted to tell her  but she refused to listen to his story so the secret died with him....

Originally Posted By zoinks:
Happy New Year!!!!
Here's more for the morass of a specific historical event----

This first story is based on an original essay by a journalist 3 years previous. Both are linked below. First link is short while the second link really weaves a tale pretty well. (Not an endorsement as to it being the one and only truth. Just a well woven tale.)
Please to enjoy.

Lee Harvey Oswald's Last Phone Call

is based on this essay

The Raleigh Call  AND THE Fingerprints of Intelligence

Originally Posted By FrankSymptoms:
Here's the Zapruder film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqlib47cefM

There's no agent on the back of the President's car until after he's shot. Stop the film at 0:17; to go forward frame-by-frame, press the period; to go backward, press comma.

No AR15 to be seen, either.

Originally Posted By Reload_em:
Back and to the left...

His head went back and to the left, from a shot from above and to the rear...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZq6UOiBu_Y

Originally Posted By AlvinYork:

I've seen that Zapruder film probably 20 times and I just watched it this evening to make sure that I missed the agent on the back of the car at the time of the kill shot......nope didn't see it this time either.

Nixon was finally ready to tip his hand.

“The ‘Who shot John?’ angle,” he said quietly, 17 minutes into the conversation. Nixon did not dwell on the phrase. He didn’t need to. In the context of his long-standing demand for the CIA’s records, the invocation of “the ‘Who shot John?’ angle” can only refer to one thing: Kennedy’s assassination. The ambush in Dallas was the first thing on Nixon’s mind as he pressed the director for the agency’s Bay of Pigs files. The president intuited a connection between the failed invasion in 1961 and JFK’s assassination two years later.

Nixon had no desire to expose what Helms called the agency’s “dirty linen.” Rather, he wanted to use the Bay of Pigs issue against presumed rival Ted Kennedy while defending the CIA from recent allegations that the CIA’s plots against Castro had led to JFK’s death. Nixon knew the Agency was vulnerable to JFK’s assassination, which he presumed gave him leverage over Helms.

Nixon assured Helms that his concern was not the agency’s actions related to Kennedy’s assassination but the criticism he faced as president.

“Is Eisenhower to blame? Is Johnson to blame? Is Kennedy to blame? Is Nixon to blame?” the president went on. “Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. It may become — not by me — but it may become a very, very vigorous issue. If it does …”

Nixon couldn’t have been referring to the Bay of Pigs or Cuba, which were both dead issues by then. The JFK assassination story, by contrast, had erupted vigorously earlier that year. In January 1971, a front-page New York Times story reported that Dallas police chief Jesse Curry published a book saying JFK had been killed by a conspiracy. The same day, Jack Anderson, the syndicated investigative reporter, wrote a startling column in The Washington Post that began, “Locked in the darkest recesses of the Central Intelligence Agency is the story of six assassination attempts against Cuba’s Fidel Castro.”


The story, picked up by the TV networks, was disturbingly accurate to Helms. There was indeed a top-secret CIA Inspector General’s report that itemized the six plots; Helms was running one of them on the day JFK was killed. Anderson’s source was a well-connected Washington lawyer representing Johnny Rosselli, the Mafia boss whom the CIA had enlisted to poison the Cuban leader in 1960. Anderson intimated that Castro had intercepted the CIA’s assassins and orchestrated Kennedy’s assassination as retaliation.

By leaking his story, Rosselli effectively used the Post to blackmail the CIA — and it worked. The agency shielded Rosselli from deportation proceedings, according to a memo declassified in 1997. The CIA-blessed mobster never shared his knowledge of the Castro plots with federal prosecutors. The agreement prevented disclosure of the CIA’s assassination policy, which probably saved Helms’ job.

Now Nixon wanted to know more about “the Who shot John? angle.”

“I need to know what is necessary to protect, frankly, the intelligence gathering and the Dirty Tricks Department, and I will protect it,” the president avowed. “Hey, listen, I have done more than my share of lying to protect you, and I believe it’s totally right to do it.”

Helms stayed silent.

“If I don’t know,” Nixon asked plaintively, “then what do you have?”

The president was beholden to his spymaster. This was a harsh reality of the Watergate affair, not reported by the Washington Post, not uncovered by Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein. The CIA and Helms barely figure in All the President’s Men, or the iconic movie that followed.

The Oval Office dynamic was also rather different than the showdown depicted by Oliver Stone. Helms did not threaten Nixon with a veiled reference to Kennedy’s assassination. In historical reality, the frustrated president unsuccessfully begged the imperious spy chief for more information about who killed his predecessor.

“I don’t believe that you can say, well … the director of the CIA … is the only one who is to know what happened in certain circumstances,” Nixon said. “The president is to know, and that the president’s successor is not to know?”

The agency’s JFK secrets were safe with him, Nixon emphasized. “I am not going to embarrass the CIA because it served. … I believe in Dirty Tricks.”

Helms finally spoke. He appeased Nixon by offering a folder of CIA cables on the assassination of Diem, material that Nixon could use to impugn JFK’s legacy in the 1972 election. “Sir, I’m working entirely for you,” he assured the president. “Anything I’ve got is yours.”

The partisan president came away happy. The canny director had given up nothing on the Bay of Pigs, the Castro plots or Kennedy’s assassination

Originally Posted By FrankSymptoms:
Here's the Zapruder film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqlib47cefM

There's no agent on the back of the President's car until after he's shot. Stop the film at 0:17; to go forward frame-by-frame, press the period; to go backward, press comma.

No AR15 to be seen, either.

Originally Posted By Andrewsky:
This theory that a Secret Service agent shot him is ridiculous for too many reasons to go into.  I hope you don't really believe this little fairy tale.

Originally Posted By 556NAT0:


I got stuck in the rabbit hole, because it was fun. The problem is all of these conspiracy theories simply don't answer all the questions and they require a belief in people's ability to conspire discreetly that just doesn't exist. Unfortunately all roads point back to Oswald.



He never did it officially. It was the policy of the Department of State to talk US citizens out of it (obviously), the person he met was Richard E Snyder, who attempted to talk him out of it. Oswald also showed up on a weekend and was told his request could be processed when they are open for business. Snyder delayed because he believed that a young kid that didn't know what he was doing shouldn't be able to throw away his citizenship and wanted to give him time to think about it. Oswald never returned to the Embassy as instructed. When Oswald sent letters, the Embassy sent letters back explaining to him that he needs to return in person.



Real question, why would they?

Oswald was of no value from an intel point of view. In fact, he was no value to the USSR at all. He wasn't a Russian, he wanted to leach off them and took a crap job because he had no skills. He attempted to kill himself when the Soviets attempted to bounce him. To the Soviets he was at best a traitor and a loonbag, and at worst a spy.

Originally Posted By zoinks:
I have always been amazed by the fact that the majority of Americans don't want to believe that Oswald killed Kennedy. I've never understood why.

I have a theory about humanity that it likes to be deluded by others and self-deluded as well, plus humanity likes Ptolemaic "answers" rather than simple truths.

Also, I'm amazed that these same people would rather suffer than change their minds. It's amazing to me.

Oswald was a known member of the American Communist Party. You just don't become a CP member. You go through a long process to enure your political reliability. Every Communist Party in every country at the time owed allegiance to the Communist Party in the USSR. Ultimately, no one became a CP member anywhere without Soviet say-so.
Oswald defected to the USSR. He gave classified information to the Soviets causing the US Navy to change codes/procedures.
Oswald renounced his US citizenship both by letter and by personal interview. For whatever reason, it was not accepted.
Oswald applied for Soviet citizenship. For whatever reason, it was not approved.
This is not the behavior of someone who is pro-American. (Nor is it the behavior of a "double agent" for those that believe he was conning various governments.)
Oswald had mental issues. That's not in dispute. What seems to be is that many people offer that as an excuse, and therefore diminish his role in killing Kennedy. This is a huge mistake. Oswald's mental issues are what gave him drive, focus and impatience when he couldn't or wasn't allowed to complete his actions.

Oswald killed Kennedy.

But, many people would rather believe fantasies about Frank Sinatra, Sam Giancanna, Chicago, Lake Tahoe, (Lake fucking Tahoe!! Keep it Blue, fuckoes!!,) all working with the CIA to kill Kennedy (apparently poisoning him through the drugs Kennedy was normally high on wasn't going to work) because of something.

All the while, Americans still don't want to believe that in some way or some how an ideological enemy of the US, an enemy that believed that there could only be one victor in this struggle, shouldn't even be seen as some how complicit in a murder when the Soviets murdered 10s of millions to accomplish marginal ends. I am amazed.


ETA: fixing bad typing. There's probably more to do later.

Originally Posted By Yobro512:



Zero % chance Oswald would be allowed to come back to the US Scott free with his wife if he was an acknowledged traitor.

Why was Oswald trained in Russian when he was in the military?

Originally Posted By zoinks:
As a side point, the original Armalite AR-15, and I assume first Colts, open bolt select fire weapons. You kids have only known the closed bolt version. But, if you had been cool and in the Air Force, this is what you would have had!!! LOL

Originally Posted By Colt653:


This is incorrect.

the original Armalite and Colt rifles, were select fire, they were not "open bolt"

You can clearly see the hardchrome bolt is firing from the closed bolt on both semi and full auto

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b5w7Aypamg



EDIT - lots of early pics here.  - https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/The-Complete-1958-ArmaLite-AR-15-Prototype-Guide-Version-2-/123-747449/

https://i.imgur.com/caPmSCP.jpeg

https://imgur.com/2u4aqxg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/tyAGgTN.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/LqErbwh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QF5nfag.jpg

Originally Posted By trio:
Oswald killed Kennedy.  

I'm curious, how many people in this thread have read the Warren commission summary.  Not even the whole report.  Just the summary.  My best is 1, maybe 2, in this whole thread, if that.


Kennedy conspiracy people are right there with 9/11 trurthers. There is plenty of evidence out there, and it all points to Oswald.

From there, Landis' account differs from the government's official findings: In the ensuing chaos, he claims he picked up a bullet that was lodged in the back seat of the car where Kennedy had been sitting and placed it on the president's hospital stretcher for investigators.

Landis, who in 1963 was a young Secret Service agent assigned to protect First Lady Jaqueline Kennedy, said that in the chaos following the shooting, he picked up a nearly pristine bullet sitting on the top of the back seat of the open limousine.

It was just behind where Kennedy was sitting when he was killed, he says. Landis says he took the projectile and placed it on the president's hospital stretcher to preserve it for the autopsy investigators.

That bullet, the first piece of evidence logged in the murder investigation, has for six decades been said to have been found on the stretcher of Texas Governor John Connally, and was hypothesized to have fallen free from a wound to his thigh.

Landis thinks the bullet may have rolled onto Connally's stretcher from Kennedy's while they were next to each other.

It has long been known as the 'magic bullet' -- the bullet that supposedly passed through Kennedy's neck from the rear, then entered Connally's right shoulder, struck his rib, exited under his right nipple, passed through his right wrist and hit his left thigh.

But Landis' assertion that it had actually exited Kennedy in his Cadillac could lay waste to the magic bullet theory - and bolster the claim that Lee Harvey Oswald did not operate alone on the day of the murder.

Now, Landis says that he believes the bullet he retrieved from the limo may have been undercharged, and dislodged from a shallow wound in the president's back, falling back onto the limousine seat when the fatal shot struck his head.

He theorizes that, after he placed the bullet on Kennedy's stretcher, it may have fallen onto Connally's stretcher when they were jostled together.

It's also possible that the hospital staffer who found the bullet and handed it over to the Secret Service misidentified which stretcher it was from, or that his account was mangled by investigators.

The bullet, which had been fired but was nearly fully intact, was positively matched to Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano through ballistics analysis.

But if Landis' claim is true, that suggests the bullet tagged as evidence item 'Q1' was not responsible for the injuries to Connolly, and there was no so-called 'magic bullet'.

Originally Posted By Colt653:



I read this paperback several years ago. Like everything about the JFK killing, you don't know what to believe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Error


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Hickey-ar-15_jfk.jpg


Photo showing driver and Agent George Hickey, shortly after JFK was killed, holding the AR-15 rifle that accidental shooting theorists say killed Kennedy.

Originally Posted By zoinks:
SNIP

There's a few other things of weirdness throughout both articles, but not safeguarding evidence is a really big thing if you're in a job where one of your primary responsibilities is not only find evidence, but safeguard it.