Ok, I've decided against building a pistol since I found out a registered SBR doesn't have to have a stock.  What I need to know is, how do I go about registering the Hesse kevlar lower I plan on using (haven't bought it yet,) or should I register my pre-ban BM M4gery so I don't have to permanently affix the Phantom?
Either way, I know it'll cost me an extra $200, but what would you do?  Thanks in advance!

If you build on a post-ban lower you are still bound by the post-ban rules, ie., no flash suppressor, collaspible stock, bayo. lug. etc.

Build it on your pre-ban Bushie and you can keep/use all the "evil" parts.

Use your pre-ban lower, then your options are open to how you run one day to the next.

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12" DPMS Bull


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I think you are wrong on that one just by the definitions alone.

If you build a short barreled rifle and remove the stock it is no longer a short barreled rifle, it can't be shoulder fired (like a rifle).

I could be wrong. Where did you get your info from?

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS
CHAPTER I--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS, DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
PART 178--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents
Subpart B--Definitions
Sec. 178.11  Meaning of terms.

Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by
alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
   
Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and
having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped
by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
   


(c) A semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
   (1) An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of
the pistol grip,
   (2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash
suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer,
   (3) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely
encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm
with the nontrigger hand without being burned,
   (4) A manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is
unloaded, and
   (5) A semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm
   

as long as it started life as a RIFLE it will always be a rifle until someone converts it to FA then its no longer a rifle it would be a machine gun

Read Subguns.com,, SBR does not necessarily have to have stock (optional equipment). Just because you can fire an AR one handed, unshouldered, does this mean it's a pistol? NO, the lower is still registered as rifle.

AOW can NEVER have a stock.

The lower is registered as the SBR (RIFLE), thus it can have any length upper mounted, and shoulder fired legally with barrel under 16" in length.

I checked the Subguns.com website, all it does is refer you to James Bardwells website.

This is from his website:
While making a pistol out of a rifle is making
a short rifle, ATF has long approved of converting a pistol into a rifle, and then converting it back into a pistol.

As far as the stock goes there is no ruling or ATF letter that cover it.

I read the regulations:

Rifle = shoulder fired. To be a short barreled rifle it still must meet the definition of a rifle. Remove the stock and it is not a shoulder fired weapon, is now either a pistol (illegal) or an AOW.

Please show me the url to the subguns.com website or the Bardwell website that says a stock is optional for a SBR.

Another SBR,started life as 16" carbine, had since '88 as SBR, AWC also.

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Address your question to Keith @gca, posts as
boardhog@gca(gulf coast armory), Dave Hineline, can be found here on the M-16 discussion, also Charles Tatum (MACVSOG), just to name a few.

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE SEND THIS QUESTION IN LETTER FORM (not over the phone) TO THE ATF'S TECH. DEPT. FOR AN ANSWER??????!!!!!

Until someone does get an answer, I would contend that a rifle does not have to have a stock, and here's why:




Note the wording "redesigned" is only found in the rifle definition.

Note the wording "originally" is only found in the pistol definition.

The difference between the two definitions is what keeps a rifle from ever becoming a pistol in the eyes of the law, regardless of its current configuration.  Because the law specifically says a pistol has to be "ORIGINALLY designed, made, and intended to be fired from one hand"  a firearm being fired from one hand (no stock) is not a pistol, and not subject to the section of the assault weapon ban covering pistols.

If the definition of a rifle had contained in it the wording "originally designed,"  then taking the stock off even for cleaning would be illegal.  Luckily, it does not.

If the definition of pistol had contained "redesigned" in regards to becoming a pistol, and did not include "originally deigned, made, etc"  then lots of people would be converting their pre-ban SP1's into AR15 pistols before they sell them.  ($1100 compared to $2500)  But unfortunately "originally designed is in the pistol definition, and "redesigned" is not.

Don't bother, all you will get is a stupid pre-printed form letter for whatever section of the law with a inked signature. Go look at the stuff on Bardwell's site I think it is. Then some DIPS@#T will interpret it his own way and SCREW things up for ALL of us.
Look at the PRE/POST crap for SBR's even though we are registering and paying tax on a NFA firearm.
It was my assumption that the CRIME BILL was to hassle "over the counter" firearms, but NO, somebody had to drag it into NFA, even though we have to be fingerprinted and investigated and pay.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

From what I've read so far, It seems as if I can convert a pistol into a rifle, but NOT a rifle into a pistol ???

Reason I ask is, I have an AR-15 pistol, originally built and registered as a pistol, and would like to add a stock and/or a forward pistol grip to it...

Is this legal, as long as it is less than 50 oz.???

If so, is ATF paperwork required ?


-OR-
Am I just pissin in the wind here ???....  

I asked this in the GD Forum a few days ago, and got conflicting answers...I'm still not sure what's legal and what's not...[>:/]

Adding a shoulder stock to a pistol would constitute construction of a "short barrel rifle", as it could now be fired from the shoulder with a barrel shorter than 16". "ALL NFA RULES APPLY" now. You need a Form 1 approved(5320.1) to attach a stock and fire shorter than 16" barrel.
You can add stock to your factory pistol lower and add a 16" upper and use as a rifle, People been selling MAC-10/11-9 variant 16" uppers for years.
Adding a front grip to a pistol is "grey area" I think, as ATF requires notificaton/approval for the addition of a "K" grip to the HK "SP-89" pistol, now it would become an MP-5K variant (AOW??) Correct me if I'm wrong, as the one hand firing requirement of a pistol could now be accomplised with 2 hands.

"From what I've read so far, It seems as if I can convert a pistol into a rifle, but NOT a rifle into a pistol ???"

Start from the begining:
A rifle is a rifle.
16 inch barrel, overall length of 26 inches, made to be fired from the shoulder.

A pistol is a pistol.
Held in one hand, no stock.

Stupid laws apply:

You can't make a rifle into a pistol.
It is a rifle, it will always be a rifle. You can register it as a SBR. It's still a rifle.

You can make a pistol into a rifle. It must have a stock and have a barrel longer than 16 inches and an overall length of 26 inches. You can make a pistol with a 20 inch barrel if you want, it can't have a shoulder stock. If you put a shoulder stock on a pistol with a barrel length of less than 16 inches it is a SBR.
You can't make a pistol into a SBR or an AOW.

"Reason I ask is, I have an AR-15 pistol, originally built and registered as a pistol, and would like to add a stock and/or a forward pistol grip to it..."

You have a preban AR15 pistol. If you add a stock to it it is now a short barreled rifle UNLESS you have a 16 inch barrel on it and the overall length is 26 inches or more.
If you put a forward grip on your AR15 pistol it is now an AOW. If you took your AR15 pistol and put a stock on it and a 16 inch barrel and thew overall length is 26 inches or more and a forward grip on it it is still an AR15 pistol, yet it is legal.

From the Bardwell website:
[url]http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter7.txt[/url]
"If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA.  Verification must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity."  
NOTE: This letter was written in 1992, before the crime bill of 94.
The following would apply for an AR15 based pistol:
(c) A semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
(1) An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip,
(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer,
(3) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm
with the nontrigger hand without being burned,
(4) A manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded, and
(5) A semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm

To the guys who keep saying check the Bardwell website I say this: This is the second time I have done so on this thread. I have yet to see anyone post anything with a URL that shows that a SBR does not have to have a stock.

A short barreled rifle must still meet the requirements of a rifle, SHOULDER FIRED.
You can cut down the stock, it can have a shorter stock, but it still must be a SHOULDER FIRED weapon.
Remove the stock and what do you have? it's  a pistol...Nope, can't be that, it's not made to be fired from one hand. OK, it's an AOW. Nope, no forward grip.

A pistol is a pistol, a rifle is a rifle.
Unless you put a stock and a 16 inch barrel on a pistol and the overall length is 26 inches. Then it's a pistol...rifle! [X]