Posted: 6/23/2014 11:24:24 AM EDT
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How do these NFA dealers with post-86 machineguns that they either manufacture or buy get to keep them if the only way to buy or manufacture a full auto firearm after 1986 is to get a law enforcement agency to write a letter asking for a demonstration? You see these dealers (one notable if arguably bad example is "Sons of Guns" on TV) who make post-86 machineguns and destructive devices for clients who are clearly not Class III/SOT licensed and there is no mention of an LEO demo letter and they make it appear that they are transferring that post-86 NFA item to the non-licensee.
Of course reality TV isn't reality, but it does seem that a lot of "dealers" and people who don't appear themselves to be dealers or LEOs have post-86 NFA machineguns and DDs that they are not selling to LEOs. How is this possible/legal? Is there some loophole here I'm not aware of? |
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How do these NFA dealers with post-86 machineguns that they either manufacture or buy get to keep them if the only way to buy or manufacture a full auto firearm after 1986 is to get a law enforcement agency to write a letter asking for a demonstration? You see these dealers (one notable if arguably bad example is "Sons of Guns" on TV) who make post-86 machineguns and destructive devices for clients who are clearly not Class III/SOT licensed and there is no mention of an LEO demo letter and they make it appear that they are transferring that post-86 NFA item to the non-licensee. Of course reality TV isn't reality, but it does seem that a lot of "dealers" and people who don't appear themselves to be dealers or LEOs have post-86 NFA machineguns and DDs that they are not selling to LEOs. How is this possible/legal? Is there some loophole here I'm not aware of? You answered your own question. <---FFL/SOT An 01FFL/SOT cannot have a post 86 machine gun transferred to him without a LE demo letter. While the demo letter is required, actually selling the demo is not. Post '86 machine guns are not fully transferrable, so if you see someone with one they must be LE or a dealer/manufacturer. |
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That's true, but why do I see so many "dealers" with post-86 machineguns that they bring out to shooting events such as corporate team building type things, or machingun rental type businesses or just to entertain their friends? Was every post-86 machinegun that's currently in the possession of a non-LEO at one time actually demonstrated to an LEO who was genuinely interested in the demo for possible purchase? Something seems a little fishy given the sheer numbers of post-86 machineguns I see out there.
How much of this is just rich high rollers who create bogus Class III/SOT "businesses" and get bogus law letters from bribed podunk sheriff depts in order to get access to cheaper post-86 non-transferrable machineguns to entertain themselves and their buddies? Or is there something else going on here that I'm not aware of? |
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How much of this is just rich high rollers who create bogus Class III/SOT "businesses" and get bogus law letters from bribed podunk sheriff depts in order to get access to cheaper post-86 non-transferrable machineguns to entertain themselves and their buddies? Or is there something else going on here that I'm not aware of? Zero in my experience. If you know of any, please post. I don't. |
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That's true, but why do I see so many "dealers" with post-86 machineguns that they bring out to shooting events such as corporate team building type things, or machingun rental type businesses or just to entertain their friends? Quoted:
That's true, but why do I see so many "dealers" with post-86 machineguns that they bring out to shooting events such as corporate team building type things, or machingun rental type businesses or just to entertain their friends? Uhhh.......cause they are dealer/SOT's that have machine guns? 
Was every post-86 machinegun that's currently in the possession of a non-LEO at one time actually demonstrated to an LEO who was genuinely interested in the demo for possible purchase? Immaterial. But there would be a LE demo letter for each of those machine guns. Something seems a little fishy given the sheer numbers of post-86 machineguns I see out there. Explain "fishy"? Either it's legal or it's not. How much of this is just rich high rollers who create bogus Class III/SOT "businesses" and get bogus law letters from bribed podunk sheriff depts in order to get access to cheaper post-86 non-transferrable machineguns to entertain themselves and their buddies? Yeah, that's it 
Or is there something else going on here that I'm not aware of? I think I know what's going on here. 
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Yeah, that's my problem. Every time I ask this question, I immediately get attacked by people accusing me of "just being jealous" or something akin to "don't rock the boat dude" or "geez, you should just shut up and make friends with some dealer who'll let you play with his 'posties' and stop being a party pooper".
I can never seem to get a straight answer as to what really is the deal here. |
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Yeah, that's my problem. Every time I ask this question, I immediately get attacked by people accusing me of "just being jealous" or something akin to "don't rock the boat dude" or "geez, you should just shut up and make friends with some dealer who'll let you play with his 'posties' and stop being a party pooper". I can never seem to get a straight answer as to what really is the deal here. you already got the straight answer, you're just being obtuse. The people you see either have letters or are manufacturers. That's all there is to it. |
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Yeah, that's my problem. Every time I ask this question, I immediately get attacked by people accusing me of "just being jealous" or something akin to "don't rock the boat dude" or "geez, you should just shut up and make friends with some dealer who'll let you play with his 'posties' and stop being a party pooper". I can never seem to get a straight answer as to what really is the deal here. I think the gap that the OP is missing is that 07/02's with their SOT can MAKE post '86 samples, someone has to MAKE them before MIL/LEO can request them for demo. There is no MIL/LEO demo letter to MAKE MG's. Just to transfer them to the next FFL. If no other SOT's buy them on demo-request letterhead, I guess business is just slow right now. Maybe the market for a F/A AKM they built up from a flat and a parts kit isn't what they thought it was. (Shrug)... 
If you look on YouTube for videos of MG's being shot over and over and over until they glow red, melt, and burst, those are post '86 sample MG's in the posesion of the original 07/02 SOT who made it, or the FFL who'd gotten it on a demo-letter, and has nobody else to transfer it to getting rid of them "Viking Funeral Style". |
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Yeah, that's my problem. Every time I ask this question, I immediately get attacked by people accusing me of "just being jealous" or something akin to "don't rock the boat dude" or "geez, you should just shut up and make friends with some dealer who'll let you play with his 'posties' and stop being a party pooper". Quoted:
Yeah, that's my problem. Every time I ask this question, I immediately get attacked by people accusing me of "just being jealous" or something akin to "don't rock the boat dude" or "geez, you should just shut up and make friends with some dealer who'll let you play with his 'posties' and stop being a party pooper". No one attacked you or gave you an internet wedgy. When you post nonsense like "rich high rollers who create bogus Class III/SOT "businesses" and get bogus law letters from bribed podunk sheriff depts." expect it to be pointed out. I can never seem to get a straight answer as to what really is the deal here. If you have a history of not getting the answers you want here on Arfcom, try asking your local ATF office. 
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| Yes, I understand its all legal, but doesn't this business of manufacturing/trading post-86 machineguns and then somehow (gosh!) not actually selling them to LEOs with a genuine demo letter but rather ending up mostly using them to have fun with strike you as a little on the "wink-wink-nudge-nudge you be a good-ole-boy and I'll let you play with my toys" kinda deal? I understand the BATF is evil and getting to have fun toys by finding a legalistic way to "outsmart" them at their own rules is a way to "stick it to the man', but it does strike me as a little dishonest to organize an entire "business" around this particular scheme, especially when it mostly just seems to benefit high rollers with connections. |
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Yes, I understand its all legal, but doesn't this business of manufacturing/trading post-86 machineguns and then somehow (gosh!) not actually selling them to LEOs with a genuine demo letter but rather ending up mostly using them to have fun with strike you as a little on the "wink-wink-nudge-nudge you be a good-ole-boy and I'll let you play with my toys" kinda deal? I understand the BATF is evil and getting to have fun toys by finding a legalistic way to "outsmart" them at their own rules is a way to "stick it to the man', but it does strike me as a little dishonest to organize an entire "business" around this particular scheme, especially when it mostly just seems to benefit high rollers with connections. Not really. The ATF will get after any FFL who is not "actively engaged in the business". Even just a regular 01 who wants to buy guns at wholesale, much less a SOT. Anyone doing it solely to "play" will not last long. So whatever "play" they get out of it, they're doing enough business to have earned it. There's nobody who's only doing it to play with post-'86 NFA. If there is, they're running on borrowed time. And there has been legal trouble for both SOT's and the LEA's who've played fast and loose given out demo letters for the purpose of "play". IMO, the perception of "being a play-SOT" comes from the pictures, videos of events like the Knob Creek shoot and other MG shoots where the dealers show up, and you see some post-'86 sample getting used. You don't see the other 99% of the time they're doing paperwork, scratching for bids to equip some SWAT team with M4's and breacher SBS's, doing inventory, sweating the business bank balance, or just the drudgery of the day in and out of basic Title I firearms and 01 FFL business etc. |
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Not really. The ATF will get after any FFL who is not "actively engaged in the business". Even just a regular 01 who wants to buy guns at wholesale, much less a SOT. Anyone doing it solely to "play" will not last long. So whatever "play" they get out of it, they're doing enough business to have earned it. There's nobody who's only doing it to play with post-'86 NFA. If there is, they're running on borrowed time. And there has been legal trouble for both SOT's and the LEA's who've played fast and loose given out demo letters for the purpose of "play". IMO, the perception of "being a play-SOT" comes from the pictures, videos of events like the Knob Creek shoot and other MG shoots where the dealers show up, and you see some post-'86 sample getting used. You don't see the other 99% of the time they're doing paperwork, scratching for bids to equip some SWAT team with M4's and breacher SBS's, doing inventory, sweating the business bank balance, or just the drudgery of the day in and out of basic Title I firearms and 01 FFL business etc. Quoted:
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Yes, I understand its all legal, but doesn't this business of manufacturing/trading post-86 machineguns and then somehow (gosh!) not actually selling them to LEOs with a genuine demo letter but rather ending up mostly using them to have fun with strike you as a little on the "wink-wink-nudge-nudge you be a good-ole-boy and I'll let you play with my toys" kinda deal? I understand the BATF is evil and getting to have fun toys by finding a legalistic way to "outsmart" them at their own rules is a way to "stick it to the man', but it does strike me as a little dishonest to organize an entire "business" around this particular scheme, especially when it mostly just seems to benefit high rollers with connections. Not really. The ATF will get after any FFL who is not "actively engaged in the business". Even just a regular 01 who wants to buy guns at wholesale, much less a SOT. Anyone doing it solely to "play" will not last long. So whatever "play" they get out of it, they're doing enough business to have earned it. There's nobody who's only doing it to play with post-'86 NFA. If there is, they're running on borrowed time. And there has been legal trouble for both SOT's and the LEA's who've played fast and loose given out demo letters for the purpose of "play". IMO, the perception of "being a play-SOT" comes from the pictures, videos of events like the Knob Creek shoot and other MG shoots where the dealers show up, and you see some post-'86 sample getting used. You don't see the other 99% of the time they're doing paperwork, scratching for bids to equip some SWAT team with M4's and breacher SBS's, doing inventory, sweating the business bank balance, or just the drudgery of the day in and out of basic Title I firearms and 01 FFL business etc. +1 |
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One funny part of the 02/SOT is why so many maxim, ppsh, mp40, mp38, uzi and other ridiculous machine guns are manufactured when no L.E. agency would need or want sample one.
there is a long list of simple tube guns that made for fun shooting not for dealer samples. The cheapest way to get a machine gun is to pursue an 02/SOT I think 900.00 initial investment. Then $500 yr for SOT. |
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One funny part of the 02/SOT is why so many maxim, ppsh, mp40, mp38, uzi and other ridiculous machine guns are manufactured when no L.E. agency would need or want sample one. there is a long list of simple tube guns that made for fun shooting not for dealer samples. The cheapest way to get a machine gun is to pursue an 02/SOT I think 900.00 initial investment. Then $500 yr for SOT. It's not cheap when you aren't "engaged in the business" and legal/ATF trouble comes down on you. Some of them may not be doing much if any MIL/LEO MG sales, but they are also selling lots of DD's, SBS's, AOW's, SBR's, and the transfers on pre-'86 MG's... the stuff the public in NFA-friendly states can still get. That's still "engaged in the business". The SOT community is not all that big. Things they learn about various areas of NFA gear, DD's, mortars recoilless rifles, types of machine gun actions,they gain experience. And they refer to each other for info, and refer people and organizations that need technical help to the guy who has the expertise in that area. And from that, there is actually a fair amount of consulting that goes on for the .gov, .mil, TV and movies etc. There is also the issue of repairs and maintenance on the existing supply of pre-'86 MG's, since they can't be replaced, knowing how to fix them is kind of important. And also from that comes the market for replacement parts, or accessories that go with the various MG's. I'm not saying there aren't post-'86 samples out there for the hell of it, of course there are, but anyone not doing enough business, it's only a matter of time before they're in a world of hurt. |
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One funny part of the 02/SOT is why so many maxim, ppsh, mp40, mp38, uzi and other ridiculous machine guns are manufactured when no L.E. agency would need or want sample one. there is a long list of simple tube guns that made for fun shooting not for dealer samples. The cheapest way to get a machine gun is to pursue an 02/SOT I think 900.00 initial investment. Then $500 yr for SOT. You forgot the $2,250.00 ITAR annually as well. |
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You forgot the $2,250.00 ITAR annually as well. Quoted:
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One funny part of the 02/SOT is why so many maxim, ppsh, mp40, mp38, uzi and other ridiculous machine guns are manufactured when no L.E. agency would need or want sample one. there is a long list of simple tube guns that made for fun shooting not for dealer samples. The cheapest way to get a machine gun is to pursue an 02/SOT I think 900.00 initial investment. Then $500 yr for SOT. You forgot the $2,250.00 ITAR annually as well. I was waiting to see if someone would mention that. 
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I was waiting to see if someone would mention that. Quoted:
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One funny part of the 02/SOT is why so many maxim, ppsh, mp40, mp38, uzi and other ridiculous machine guns are manufactured when no L.E. agency would need or want sample one. there is a long list of simple tube guns that made for fun shooting not for dealer samples. The cheapest way to get a machine gun is to pursue an 02/SOT I think 900.00 initial investment. Then $500 yr for SOT. You forgot the $2,250.00 ITAR annually as well. I was waiting to see if someone would mention that. Just wanted to point out that the annual overhead cost of making post samples for fun and profit is a lot more than the license fee and SOT. |