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Posted: 9/6/2002 6:43:08 AM EDT
Is it legal to install a folding stock on a pre-ban rifle (as proven by rifle serial number and sales receipt) on the rifle after the ban has been enacted if the rifle did not already have a folding stock on it prior to the ban? Is it legal to install a replacement folding stock on a pre-ban rifle that already had a folding stock on it prior to the ban? Is it legal to switch back and forth being folding and non-folding stocks on pre-ban rifles?
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 6:47:05 AM EDT
YES =) YES =) YES, but why =)
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 7:23:25 AM EDT
DevilsAdvocate, Thanks for the response. Answer to #3 is "Variety is the spice of life". I like switching accessories simply for the fun of it. However, no question that the folding stock is the TEOTWAWKI accessory of choice.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 12:05:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 7:26:54 PM EDT
Yes, what Troy said.... Especially if this forum was 1022.com or Mini14.com. Being that it isnt, and that you PROBABLY know that its mostly AR stuff, I ASSUMED you were talking about a pre-ban AR of which you have the RECEIPT that shows it was purchased as an AW. That should explain my simple answers. [Surprised mode on] TROY, you posted.... "In order for a rifle to be a grandfathered "assault weapon", it had to be either one of the guns banned by name, or it had to have been in "AW" configuration on or before 9/13/94. If the latter is true, then adding or removing AW features is fine as long as the gun always contains enough features to be considered an AW." The second part of your paragraph """adding or removing AW features is fine as long as the gun [red]always contains enough features to be considered an AW[/red].""" Makes absolutely no sense at all and I have NEVER heard (or read any law)that it is a NO-NO to remove AW features to the point that a firearm is no longer an aw. Because that statement is so backwards, I will ASSUME (because you are a moderator in a forum that deals with a LOT of AR/AW issues) that you did not mean to write it the way it reads. [surprised mode off] That said, you can add or remove as many features as you want, as long as you stay within the law (which means don't make it into an NFA weapon). Most states that would allow a pre-ban AR, would allow you do almost anything with it. (again, don't make it into an NFA weapon). Also, Does anyone know whats-up with Michigan having an 18" barrel law, instead of a 16" law? I know that UZIs fall under that law, but what about ARs?
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 7:32:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: Also, Does anyone know whats-up with Michigan having an 18" barrel law, instead of a 16" law? I know that UZIs fall under that law, but what about ARs?
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16 in for RIFLE 18 in for SHOTGUN However, some people get it mixed up and quote '18 for both' (here (WI) too)... There was a thread on this earlier, and someone checked MI law and found that it was the same as Federal...
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 8:36:56 PM EDT
Im still under the impression that a SA UZI has to have an 18" barrel there. Been looking at UZIs and a LOT of people state "18" barrel for MI" Somethings up with that.
Link Posted: 9/7/2002 7:57:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: TROY, you posted.... "In order for a rifle to be a grandfathered "assault weapon", it had to be either one of the guns banned by name, or it had to have been in "AW" configuration on or before 9/13/94. If the latter is true, then adding or removing AW features is fine as long as the gun always contains enough features to be considered an AW." The second part of your paragraph """adding or removing AW features is fine as long as the gun [red]always contains enough features to be considered an AW[/red].""" Makes absolutely no sense at all and I have NEVER heard (or read any law)that it is a NO-NO to remove AW features to the point that a firearm is no longer an aw.
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DevilsAdvocate: It is possible to remove AW features to the point a firearm is no longer an AW. If someone owning a pre ban rifle decides to sell the upper and lower separately, and the lower is transferred without any of the AW features it is no longer a pre ban rifle regardless of how or when it was made making it illegal to assemble into an AW. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=139525
Link Posted: 9/7/2002 8:09:43 PM EDT
in michigan i think the Uzi barrel length has to do with the minimum rifle length. federal is measured with the stock at the extended position i think michigan measures with it folded or collapsed.
Link Posted: 9/8/2002 9:04:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By valleypine: DevilsAdvocate, Thanks for the response. Answer to #3 is "Variety is the spice of life". I like switching accessories simply for the fun of it. However, no question that the folding stock is the TEOTWAWKI accessory of choice.
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swapping out buttstocks is not a trivial process if you want it done correctly. to properly install a buttstock, you must stake the buffer tube to the lower reciever. you may want to consider buying just a postban lower with a permanent A2 stock attached. then you can quickly swap between your preban and postban lowers. I think i just talked myself into doing this!
Link Posted: 9/8/2002 9:25:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By renderman: swapping out buttstocks is not a trivial process if you want it done correctly. to properly install a buttstock, you must stake the buffer tube to the lower reciever. you may want to consider buying just a postban lower with a permanent A2 stock attached. then you can quickly swap between your preban and postban lowers. I think i just talked myself into doing this!
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This would not work because your AR15 upper would need to be post ban for the post ban lower/A2 stock. Unless of course you have a post-ban upper on your staked telestock preban lower. Whew! I get the feeling that a freakin criminal may not be so conscientous in researching the details of legal rifle configuration. They probably just steal what is available. Valleypine..you are asking some good questions. AR15s rock.
Link Posted: 9/8/2002 9:50:44 AM EDT
If I have a Mini-14 GB with fixed stock (i.e. flash hider, bayonet lug, no folding stock), can I put the folding stock on it legally? Thanks, Bradd
Link Posted: 9/8/2002 10:03:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2002 10:06:08 AM EDT by DevilsAdvocate]
Originally Posted By ColtCustomM4:
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: TROY, you posted.... "In order for a rifle to be a grandfathered "assault weapon", it had to be either one of the guns banned by name, or it had to have been in "AW" configuration on or before 9/13/94. If the latter is true, then adding or removing AW features is fine as long as the gun always contains enough features to be considered an AW." The second part of your paragraph """adding or removing AW features is fine as long as the gun [red]always contains enough features to be considered an AW[/red].""" Makes absolutely no sense at all and I have NEVER heard (or read any law)that it is a NO-NO to remove AW features to the point that a firearm is no longer an aw.
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DevilsAdvocate: It is possible to remove AW features to the point a firearm is no longer an AW. [red] TRUE, but if you do not sell it, you can change it from pre to post whenever you feel like it. [/red] If someone owning a pre ban rifle decides to sell the upper and lower separately, and the lower is transferred without any of the AW features it is no longer a pre ban rifle regardless of how or when it was made making it illegal to assemble into an AW.
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The second statement is ALMOST incorrect. If you sell a complete pre-ban receiver rifle with no other pre-ban "goodies", the buyer can add any pre-ban items that s/he wants. I say that it's "almost" incorrect because nobody would EVER buy just the pre-ban lower. (sarcasm added)
Link Posted: 9/8/2002 10:03:34 AM EDT
Let's be realistic here. If you have a receiver that's unquestionably pre-ban by its manufacturing date and the rifle it's built on is configured to meet the legal definition of an assault weapon, but it has previously been attached to a post-ban upper assembly, then by the most nitpicking of technical descriptions, the rifle is not legal. But who fricking cares? Your chances of getting in trouble with this rifle are almost literally ZERO. Not unless it can be PROVED that the rifle had been removed from the definition of an assault rifle at one time and then reconfigured as an assault rifle, and not unless you found a state's attorney who would prosecute the case and had a strong enough case to win in a jury trial. You would probably have a hard time making this situation come true if you TRIED. Incidentally, as far as I've gathered, since the enacting of the AW ban on September 13, 1994, there has not yet been a single instance of anyone being convicted on a technical pre/post ban configuration violation unless there were other criminal charges involved. So far, simply putting pre-ban features on a post-ban has not resulted in a conviction. Maybe my information isn't complete, but that's what I've been told and I haven't yet found any evidence that trashes this position. It's a BS law and it's treated like BS. Hooray for our side. CJ
Link Posted: 9/8/2002 10:48:54 AM EDT
whoops. forgot about those damn flash suppressors. good point.
Link Posted: 9/8/2002 12:42:46 PM EDT
Bradd D yes you can. your rifle meets the definition of an assault rifle already.
Link Posted: 9/8/2002 1:00:40 PM EDT
snafu, That's what I figured. Thanks, Bradd
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 4:42:43 AM EDT
Troy and Devils Advocate, Sorry for not providing enough information. I have a MINI-14 manufactured and sold (as evidenced by serial number and sales receipt) before the pre-ban date. I installed myself an after-market folding stock (Ram Line) on this rifle before the pre-ban date. How am I supposed to "prove" that I installed this folding stock before the pre-ban date? I didn't keep the sales receipt for the folding stock. Also, what happens if I removed the folding stock (Ram Line) after the pre-ban date and installed another folding stock (Butler Creek) in its place?
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 5:22:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By valleypine: Troy and Devils Advocate, Sorry for not providing enough information. I have a MINI-14 manufactured and sold (as evidenced by serial number and sales receipt) before the pre-ban date. I installed myself an after-market folding stock (Ram Line) on this rifle before the pre-ban date. How am I supposed to "prove" that I installed this folding stock before the pre-ban date? I didn't keep the sales receipt for the folding stock. Also, what happens if I removed the folding stock (Ram Line) after the pre-ban date and installed another folding stock (Butler Creek) in its place?
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Do you have any photos of you with the rifle that can possibly be visually dated back past the ban? The stock you put on before the ban is SOMEHOW dated by a stamp, construction meathods, features etc. If you replace it, keep the old one. Also, the burden of proof that you DIDNT do it after a ban is STILL on the accusing party (no matter what people try to tell you around here). Just the fact that your rifle is preban would be enough to lend reasonable doubt to the argument that you made an AW after the ban. I
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 6:07:47 AM EDT
DevilsAdvocate, Here's the complete story. I purchased a pre-ban MINI-14 when I lived in Texas and have the sales receipt and serial number on the rifle to prove it. Before the ban, I installed a RAM Line folding stock. Before the ban I removed the RAM Line folding stock and installed a Butler Creek straight stock. I no longer have the RAM Line folding stock nor the paper work that came with it. On the day of the ban, I had the Butler Creek straight stock installed. Several years after the ban, I ordered a Butler Creek folding stock and installed it on the rifle. I only have a picture of the rifle with the RAM Line folding stock on it leaning up against an interior house wall. I am not in the picture. I took this picture when I lived in Texas for insurance purposes and kept it. Right or wrong, this is what I did and this is what I have. With this scenario, do I have a legal rifle with the Butler Creek folding stock which was installed after the ban? As said, I did have a RAM LINE folding stock installed before the ban but have no proof except a picture of a MINI-14 with a RAM Line folding stock leaning up against the interior wall of a house.
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 11:24:05 AM EDT
Under current ATF interpretations, unless you had a flash suppressor or bayonet lug or something besides a bare muzzle and straight pistol grip butler creek stock on it, and you disposed of the folding stock and had no other parts in your possession to reconfigure the mini-14 into an "AW" it's now a post-ban and has lost its grandfathered status. However, since it's been in your possession the whole time, and you have an insurance photo pre-dating the ban proving the rifle was in an AW config, you don't have to tell anyone you disposed of the parts necessary to configure it as an AW, and no one can prove differently. Under those circumstances (rifle can be shown to have been in "AW" trim before the ban and has been in your possession the whole time), I would have no problem configuring it as an AW now and keeping and using it as a legal grandfathered pre-ban.
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 3:44:45 AM EDT
Circuits, Thanks for the input. I want to make sure that I've got a correct understanding of the law through an analysis of two different scenarios. Scenario #1- I purchase a new MINI-14 before the ban. I am the sole owner of this rifle from then until present. I install a Ram Line folding stock before the ban. I then remove the RAM Line folding stock before the ban and physically dispose of it. After the ban, I order a Butler Creek folding stock and install it on the rifle. I now have an "illegal" assault rifle. Is this correct? Scenario #2- I purchase a new MINI-14 before the ban. I am the sole owner of this rifle from then until present. I install a Ram Line folding stock before the ban. I then remove the RAM Line folding stock before the ban, but do not physically dispose of it. After the ban, I order a Butler Creek folding stock and install it on the rifle. I then physically dispose of the RAM Line folding stock. I now have a "legal" assault rifle. Is this correct? One further question- If I now remove and physically dispose of the Butler Creek folding stock, does this mean that the rifle will permanently lose its "assault rifle" status and can never be legally re-converted back?
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 4:05:06 AM EDT
Hey guys, I know I am fairly new to the AR15 .com page, but I have been an LEO for a while. Let me assure you if you go to your local range with your post ban AR and an ATF agent is there shooting, he/she will not walk up to you ask for the date of manufacture, AW parts lists, etc... on your weapon. You will probably get a nod of greeting or ignored like every other shooter would do to you. I you clicked your selector two positions and went auto, you may get a look, but not from carrying that post ban out there with a pre ban upper, etc... LEO are looking for manufactures selling illegal items, trunk sells to felons, drug dealers with AW's. The average Joe citizen is not scrutinized as another poster on the board stated, no one has been prosecuted for it since 1994 enactment. We have a hard enough time getting prosecutors to go after the REAL criminals in America more or less a guy who put a collapsible stock on his post ban AR My 2 cents GOD BLESS AMERICA, GOD BLESS US ALL!
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 4:22:57 AM EDT
We have a hard enough time getting prosecutors to go after the REAL criminals in America more or less a guy who put a collapsible stock on his post ban AR
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And that's the source of the greatest irony. 99.99% of the people on this board could put a collapsing stock on their pre-ban and never get into trouble but we won't because we want to follow the law, no matter how idiotic it is. Meanwhile, the criminal this is supposed to stop couldn't care less because he's already committed to breaking laws. It simultaneously makes me proud of our society and digusted with our politicians. To return this reply to topic, as long as your rifle always contains a total number of evil features in excess of the ban count, you can replace, repair, etc. any parts it contains. I don't handling the lower separately and how that fits into the law, but apparently it's legal as well.
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 10:58:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By valleypine: Circuits, Thanks for the input. I want to make sure that I've got a correct understanding of the law through an analysis of two different scenarios. Scenario #1- I purchase a new MINI-14 before the ban. I am the sole owner of this rifle from then until present. I install a Ram Line folding stock before the ban. I then remove the RAM Line folding stock before the ban and physically dispose of it. After the ban, I order a Butler Creek folding stock and install it on the rifle. I now have an "illegal" assault rifle. Is this correct? Scenario #2- I purchase a new MINI-14 before the ban. I am the sole owner of this rifle from then until present. I install a Ram Line folding stock before the ban. I then remove the RAM Line folding stock before the ban, but do not physically dispose of it. After the ban, I order a Butler Creek folding stock and install it on the rifle. I then physically dispose of the RAM Line folding stock. I now have a "legal" assault rifle. Is this correct? One further question- If I now remove and physically dispose of the Butler Creek folding stock, does this mean that the rifle will permanently lose its "assault rifle" status and can never be legally re-converted back?
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According to what I understand of current ATF opinion, your two scenarios are correct. And yes, if you now remove the folding stock, and dispose of it, with no more parts in your possession to convert the rifle back into an AW, then it would also technically lose its grandfathered status. When the rifle is solely in your possession, it's not as much of a worry as if the rifle were changing hands between dealers - since you are the sole person in position to testify as to the rifle's configuration and parts you possessed at any given time.
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 11:42:46 AM EDT
Circuits and all others, Thank you for your inputs on this subject. I'll now close the book on the subject with one final statement- I don't believe there is a single piece of legislation that I have ever seen passed that has generated more contempt for elected officials by me than the passage of the Assault Weapons Bill. And these are the idiots I am entrusting to make important decisions on my behalf?
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