Posted: 11/9/2009 12:36:34 PM EDT
| Is there really a wire attached to the missle? I feel kind of stupid asking this. My internets research says there is a wire. So how does that work for longer range missles like a TOW? |
| Locked and Loaded with R. Lee Ermey on the History Channel did a short on them. The LAV's had ATGM (anti-tank guided missle) wire cutters on them. Pretty much an "L" shaped arm that stuck up that would make contact and snap the wire before it decapitated the drivers and or vehicle commanders head. We used to find all kinds of wire in Twenty-nine Palms |
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has the wires ever broken off in flight or get tangled? Gulf War "...Meanwhile, Staff Sergeant Christopher Stephens fired a TOW at the charging tank, but it's guidance wire tangled and it fell short..." |
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I was a Dragon gunner in The Corps.
No joy sticks. The wire feeds off a spool on the back of the missile. The initial blast sends it about 75-100 yards and then it has little rocket motors on the fusilage of the missile. The guidance unit, called a "tracker." The tracker "sees" the IR spot on the back of the missile and sends signals down the wire, firing the appropriate rocket motors to maintain direction and altitude. You have to keep the cross hairs on target until impact. What you get is- BOOM!! schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit––schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpi-tschpit-schpit-schpit-BOOM!!! AHHHHHHH!, AIEEEEE!!!! HEP ME!! HEP ME!! I"M MELTING!!!!! |
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Quoted: Steering commands sent from the gunner to the missile via a long ass wire. I think the TOW is the only one we have now in our inventory since Javelin replaced the Dragon, but I'm no missile expert. Actually, the gunner does NOT steer the missile. I've had pilots do that shit to me when they came back to the arming pad. "I was steering the missile but we got a wire cut. We fired two missiles and they both failed."   Here's your sign.  A TOW gunner, either air launched or ground, his only job is to track the target, thus establishing the Line-Of-Sight (LOS) to the target. There is an IR source on the back of the missile which is tracked from the IR tracker in the sight, and the error between the LOS, and the missile itself is computed. The guidance system steers the missile to reduce the error to zero. If you watch a TOW missile engagement from the gun-camera, you can see the missile crossing the LOS numerous times and it flies downrange. As it gets farther from the launch point, the deviations are smaller and smaller as the missile path is corrected. |
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Steering commands sent from the gunner to the missile via a long ass wire. I think the TOW is the only one we have now in our inventory since Javelin replaced the Dragon, but I'm no missile expert. Actually, the gunner does NOT steer the missile. I've had pilots do that shit to me when they came back to the arming pad. "I was steering the missile but we got a wire cut. We fired two missiles and they both failed."
Here's your sign.
A TOW gunner, either air launched or ground, his only job is to track the target, thus establishing the Line-Of-Sight (LOS) to the target. There is an IR source on the back of the missile which is tracked from the IR tracker in the sight, and the error between the LOS, and the missile itself is computed. The guidance system steers the missile to reduce the error to zero. If you watch a TOW missile engagement from the gun-camera, you can see the missile crossing the LOS numerous times and it flies downrange. As it gets farther from the launch point, the deviations are smaller and smaller as the missile path is corrected. By tracking the target, the gunner is in effect steering the missile correct? If he tracked on to something other then the "target" the missile would fly to that spot correct? |
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has the wires ever broken off in flight or get tangled? Yes. I had that happen to a Dragon round once. I was trying to show off (I used to be a pretty good gunner) and hit an old jeep at about the max distance for the round. There were a lot of bushes and scrub in the path, and my round went haywire right before reaching target. When they get snagged on something, they sometimes arc in a big path, or eat dirt right away... They sucked to hump though. That fucking night sight weighed a ton. |
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If the wires are cut, the missile quits correcting. The Israelis used this to advantage in the 1973 War when they engaged a column of armor, engaging the lead and trailing elements, cutting the wires to the first launch when it was close enough so that they could launch a second one before the first had made contact, effectively blocking in the column in a classic ambush. They "fixed" the enemy, making engagement for later air crews easier. Yes, recovering the guide wire is a massive PITA. And in MOUT, you need to be DAMN CAREFUL to NEVER launch over power lines |
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I was a Dragon gunner in The Corps. No joy sticks. The wire feeds off a spool on the back of the missile. The initial blast sends it about 75-100 yards and then it has little rocket motors on the fusilage of the missile. The guidance unit, called a "tracker." The tracker "sees" the IR spot on the back of the missile and sends signals down the wire, firing the appropriate rocket motors to maintain direction and altitude. You have to keep the cross hairs on target until impact. What you get is- BOOM!! schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit––schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpi-tschpit-schpit-schpit-BOOM!!! AHHHHHHH!, AIEEEEE!!!! HEP ME!! HEP ME!! I"M MELTING!!!!! That initial cloud / white-out is what always took me by suprise. Sort of like "Fuck! Where is my target!?" What unit were you with? I was in Dragons Plt, WPNS Co. 1/5 from 91-93...then Emabssy duty. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Steering commands sent from the gunner to the missile via a long ass wire. I think the TOW is the only one we have now in our inventory since Javelin replaced the Dragon, but I'm no missile expert. Actually, the gunner does NOT steer the missile. I've had pilots do that shit to me when they came back to the arming pad. "I was steering the missile but we got a wire cut. We fired two missiles and they both failed." Here's your sign. A TOW gunner, either air launched or ground, his only job is to track the target, thus establishing the Line-Of-Sight (LOS) to the target. There is an IR source on the back of the missile which is tracked from the IR tracker in the sight, and the error between the LOS, and the missile itself is computed. The guidance system steers the missile to reduce the error to zero. If you watch a TOW missile engagement from the gun-camera, you can see the missile crossing the LOS numerous times and it flies downrange. As it gets farther from the launch point, the deviations are smaller and smaller as the missile path is corrected. By tracking the target, the gunner is in effect steering the missile correct? If he tracked on to something other then the "target" the missile would fly to that spot correct? Nope. He's the dummy in the system.  I know what you're saying, but the hardest thing I had to do when teaching TOW theory was to get "steering the missile" to go away.  Yes, you can say the gunner is "steering" the missile, but in reality he's only steering the LOS. Gratuitous AH-1 and TOW missile vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc_G_L3nyEo |
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Quoted: And in MOUT, you need to be DAMN CAREFUL to NEVER launch over power lines Ouch. never considered that aspect. What about fiber optic cable? EMP proof, electrical insulator and huge bandwidth. I'm surprised that hasn't supplanted copper. Certainly possible. Only getting it strong enough might be a problem. Glass is the preferred conductor but it lacks strength with exposure to the booster heat unlike the copper plated steel wire used. IIRC, it is about 10 pound test strength and about 0.005". Over 3000 meters, 2 "spools". The latest version uses no physical link, IIRC. |
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Quoted: .. Nope. He's the dummy in the system. I know what you're saying, but the hardest thing I had to do when teaching TOW theory was to get "steering the missile" to go away. Yes, you can say the gunner is "steering" the missile, but in reality he's only steering the LOS. Gratuitous AH-1 and TOW missile vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc_G_L3nyEo True. This is the distinct difference, being a negative feedback control system inside the system. You can think of it as the difference between flying a remote control and aiming a rifle. If there is a cross wind between the shooter and the target, the RC would have no means of compensation. The TOW missile automatically compensates. Guess you have to try both to see the world of difference. |
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Saw a couple of multi-thousand dollar missiles "flown" into the ground.
Years ago they were doing tests on something called "FOG-M" Fiber Optic Guided Missile. The missile could be launched from behind,say a hill, and the gunner would steer the missile through an eye on the front. Once a target was found, the missile could be set to "lock," and another could be launched right behind it. This was back in the 80's. |
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Quoted: I was a Dragon gunner in The Corps. No joy sticks. The wire feeds off a spool on the back of the missile. The initial blast sends it about 75-100 yards and then it has little rocket motors on the fusilage of the missile. The guidance unit, called a "tracker." The tracker "sees" the IR spot on the back of the missile and sends signals down the wire, firing the appropriate rocket motors to maintain direction and altitude. You have to keep the cross hairs on target until impact. What you get is- BOOM!! schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit––schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpi-tschpit-schpit-schpit-BOOM!!! AHHHHHHH!, AIEEEEE!!!! HEP ME!! HEP ME!! I"M MELTING!!!!! Yep... Some RUSSIAN AT missiles (SAGGER) had a joystick... TOW and DRAGON were 'Semi-active command line of sight' (SACLOS) which, as described above, means that the guidance unit on the launcher 'tracks' the missile based on flares/exhaust from the tail, and steers it towards where the sights are pointed.... |
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The gunner tracks the target and keeps it in the crosshairs. The TOW missile trails the wire from the missile rather than pulling it from the launcher: this reduces the chances of the wire breaking. There is an IR source in the back of the missile. As the missile flies towards the target, the tracker compares the location of the target with the IR source it reads from the back of the missile and sends corrections via the wire to the missile
Shitty picture of a TOW launch taken by me, circa 1980, Hohenfels MTA Germany 
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We still have some of the old Cobra TOW stuff sitting around the shop. It never got turned in. TOW launcher, with two missile tubes mounted.  Some empty, but correctly weighted tubes. Used for loading practice.  An old, beat to death dummy missile. It's seriously torn up now. The launch motor is the shiny raised section at the rear of the missile, the flight sustainer motor is the vent between the extended forward fins. The launch motor is completely burned out before the missile clears the tube, then the flight motor fires for (IIRC) 2.5 seconds to boost the missile up to speed.  |
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I was a Dragon gunner in The Corps. No joy sticks. The wire feeds off a spool on the back of the missile. The initial blast sends it about 75-100 yards and then it has little rocket motors on the fusilage of the missile. The guidance unit, called a "tracker." The tracker "sees" the IR spot on the back of the missile and sends signals down the wire, firing the appropriate rocket motors to maintain direction and altitude. You have to keep the cross hairs on target until impact. What you get is- BOOM!! schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit––schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpit-schpi-tschpit-schpit-schpit-BOOM!!! AHHHHHHH!, AIEEEEE!!!! HEP ME!! HEP ME!! I"M MELTING!!!!! I laughed. |
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... Nope. He's the dummy in the system.
I know what you're saying, but the hardest thing I had to do when teaching TOW theory was to get "steering the missile" to go away.
Yes, you can say the gunner is "steering" the missile, but in reality he's only steering the LOS. Gratuitous AH-1 and TOW missile vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc_G_L3nyEo "Only steering" or following the target is a damn hard nut to crack with hardware and computers. Easy for people. |
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Quoted: How do Helos cut the wire? There is a squib driven cutter in the launch tube. You can have a system initiated wire cut at either missile (IR) signal termination, or when the aircraft maneuvers outside of the missile tracking constraints, or crew commanded wire cut when the crew needs to terminate the missile. (such as having to evade incoming fire, or other emergencies) What sucks for the aircrew, is if the wires do not cut. Then they have to land immediately to prevent the wires from entangling in the main or tail rotor. That causes serious problems. |
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Collecting a few thousand meters of wire is always fun after a range trip. meters? METERS?!?! GET THAT SOCIALIST FORM OF MEASUREMENT OUT OF HERE!!!  perhaps you've never heard of NATO 
i.e. 5.56mm or 7.62mm My car gets four rods to the hogshead and that's the way I like it!
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Those wire cutters arent just for ATGM guide wires. The Nazis loved to string piano wire between trees, the next poor sap to come riding along on a motorcycle, standing behind the .30 on a Jeep, or whatever height they set it at, was decapitated.
Locked and Loaded with R. Lee Ermey on the History Channel did a short on them. The LAV's had ATGM (anti-tank guided missle) wire cutters on them. Pretty much an "L" shaped arm that stuck up that would make contact and snap the wire before it decapitated the drivers and or vehicle commanders head. We used to find all kinds of wire in Twenty-nine Palms Kharn |