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Posted: 3/16/2001 1:25:38 AM EDT
I just became aware of a friend who bought a AN/PAQ-4C IR laser aiming device from someone who shall remain nameless on AR15.com. I was suspicius of this because these items are stricly controled by the manufacturer and are only sold to cops, feds, or the military. They are controled by the FDA. When he got it it had the serial number filed off of it and the dealer refused to say where he got it from! That's not only very suspicious, but it voids the warranty! I found out that none of two distributors of Insight Technologies lasers sell to this guy. That can only mean that these are stolen military lasers. This type of thing happens more often then you think as there are some crooked supply chiefs out there. Stay on your toes with any high-tech stuff and make sure the dealer is authorized to deal the product from the manufacturer, and he is reputable! -SLYJ
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 2:03:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2001 7:46:25 PM EDT by HANGFIRE]
What did I just read? Serial numbers filed off? Dealer refuses to disclose where/how he got device? Dealer not authorized to sell FDA controlled device? SYLJ, Is your "friend" authorized to have the device? Is it illegal for the "comman man" to own this device? Why in Gods name are you protecting a criminal by not telling us his name. Whats the point of warning us to be careful and not tell us who to be careful about; thats like telling a neighbor that a child has be raped by one of our neighbors but I am not going to tell you who it is? Sir! you are a A!!!!!!!!!!! Unless you disclose who the real A!!!!!!! is; that would be the dealer. He would not live in NE would he?
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 2:54:31 AM EDT
That's exactly why I wouldn't touch a AN/PAQ-4c (or similar device) with a ten-foot pole! As far as I know, it is not technically illegal for a civvie to own or possess an IR laser, but the distributors are not supposed to market them to civvies. I'm guessing there are some federal regs. that make it illegal for the company to make them with the intention of distribution to the general public, but I don't believe there is any law in the books that actually prohibits an individual from ownership. I may be wrong on this one, someone please correct me if I am. Anyway, I would never buy one, because I would bet that 9 out of 10 of these babies for sale on the boards are indeed stolen from military sources. Think about it, you have a product that the manufacturer/distributer sells ONLY to military or government agencies. Now how many cops/feds actually get ahold of IR lasers, and how many would be able to turn around and sell these to civvies without their bosses noticing a missing $2000 laser??? On the other hand, military types (warning: broad generalization!) are sometimes well known for their ability to walk out from maneuvers with a lot of "borrowed" equipment from Uncle Sam. I did the math and made my decision about the purchase of these devices, and I always figured that anyone buying these lasers knew the risk, and figured "don't ask, don't tell" as far as the original source of the units. HANGFIRE, you have a lot of nerve calling SLYJ an ASSHOLE after your little "I screwed the dealer" thread. Those who live in glass houses..... my $.02.
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 5:01:18 AM EDT
HKocker, I did not file off the serial numbers! I did not sell a "for military and/or law enforcement only" product! I did not warn AR15.COM members about a dealer on the board who is/has done the above and then give the dealer the shield of anonymity! If what SLJY has posted is true then the failure to reveal the name of the dealer makes SLJY a coconspirator the same as you are for defending SLJY with your lame attempt to equate my selling a rusty gun with protecting a dealer selling proported stolen and prohibited property because the dealer is a member of the AR15.COM community.
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 5:56:02 AM EDT
Yea! Tell us the dealer's name so I can get one.
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 6:08:05 AM EDT
Yeah, what halfcocked said. I want one also!
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 6:09:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SLYJ: ...it had the serial number filed off of it and the dealer refused to say where he got it from! That's not only very suspicious, but it voids the warranty!
View Quote
LOL!
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 6:31:27 AM EDT
HANGFIRE: Anyone who has the knowledge to pick up items of this nature SHOULD know exactly what they're doing. I doubt that it's a case of "Ooops, I accidentally bought rather expensive military only hardware in an impulse buy!"
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 6:33:22 AM EDT
Sir! you are a ASS HOLE!!!!!!!!!!! Unless you disclose who the real ASS HOLE is; that would be the dealer. He would not live in NE would he? I think he gave enough info for anyone with the ability to use his brain to figure this one out. Try a searh using this sites resources. Do your own homework for a change. This guy just warned you & me about a possible scam artist. Heck, maybe it was you. You seem to have a track record there. Scott
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 6:48:26 AM EDT
gunfan/scott, ET TU? The conspirisy widens
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 6:55:21 AM EDT
There is, of course, another potential source for these types of items. These items are often made for both domestic and international use. A distributor may take some of his units that were designed for export or for LE here and decide to sell them to individuals for philosophical or monetary reasons. That may, or may not, get the distributor in trouble with the manufacturer. Or someone may buy the item where it is legal and ship it back to the US. However, in either case, the buyer is getting non-stolen goods. This is common in several industries. They are often called gray market goods. Awhile back, at least one dealer had some AN/PAC-4/C that were legitimate, non-stolen units. I don't know if this dealer advertised here but I'm pretty sure he listed on the subguns board. If the SN is ground off that is, at least, suspicious. On ANY product I got I would demand my money back if the SN was ground off. If the seller did not comply my next call would be to the relevant authorities.
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 6:57:33 AM EDT
Not too long ago I found myself in posession of an AN-PVS14 (the newest military night vision). The guard unit that I am with gave them to us for a drill. At the end of the drill I threw the sack into the case and turned it into supply. They checked it in, I signed off, done deal. Next day I am at home unpacking my rucksack, and what do I find? The actual unit itself. It had fallen out of its case and into my ruck when we were in the field, so all I turned in was the skullcrusher, and a couple accessories. I had the actual unit, which supply had already checked me off as turning in. Being the idiot that I am I turned it back in to supply. Thinking back I wish I would have just kept it. There is no way that it could have been traced back to me, since supply had it on paper that I turned it in. I could have sold it for quite a bit of money or just kept it myself for when TSHTF. It finally would have been my chance to screw uncle sam for once. After all he is going to screw me for the rest of my life. DAMN I'M STUPID!!! Maybe I will have to "accidently" have the same thing happen in a few years before my enlistment ends.
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 7:44:52 AM EDT
HKer, DUTY HONOR COUNTRY You took the oath and you served your country. Take pride in your service; the Clinton/Gore administration has caused more damage to this country than anything heretofor. A lot of honorable people feel like "idots" after watch- ing those gangsters escape punishment and get rich while dissin people like you. HKer it is people like you that will save our nation.
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 8:55:26 AM EDT
Was the dealer "Augman" from Texas?
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 9:33:09 AM EDT
Hell man, your taxes already paid for the thing, so what is wrong with reclaiming your property? The supply cheifs are not only participating in capitalism, but making sure that valuable equipment is getting into the patriot community. Add me to the AN/PAQ-4C group buy list!
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 12:43:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2001 1:23:39 PM EDT by HKocher]
Originally Posted By Poodleshooter: HANGFIRE: Anyone who has the knowledge to pick up items of this nature SHOULD know exactly what they're doing. I doubt that it's a case of "Ooops, I accidentally bought rather expensive military only hardware in an impulse buy!"
View Quote
EXACTLY! Considering I've only seen one fella (Lawdawg named him) sell these units, I made my guess from the start, I assumed SLYJ didn't need to name the 'culprit' for any of us who actually visit the ad boards for such equipment. HANGFIRE, most people don't like to start shit-storms using their real name and then 'name' a well known dealer for illegal activities (we aren't all adamently anti-dealer as you seem to be). Hell, as I've already said, anyone buying these units should know what they are getting into and not ask too many questions, or expect warranty service! I don't feel too sorry for the guy. But I don't think he is an asshole for posting a warning and not naming the dealer. As far as your incident, I didn't imply that you did any of those things, I just wanted you to consider if you had the 'right' to call someone an 'asshole' after bragging about screwing another human being out of money. Don't you think your dealer sold that AK to some poor bastard for $900, who was too stupid to break it down before he bought it??? Now how do you think he felt when he took his new toy apart and found a rusty bolt?? I bet he felt the same way as you did, so you see, you did not actually screw the dealer (who probably still sold the gun for profit) you screwed the guy who was the end buyer, just like yourself. Just something to think about....
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 1:20:16 PM EDT
I've never personally been issued this particular piece of equipment, but I'm quite sure that it's considered an accountable item. Which means that there is an individual that is responsible for it, starting with the unit commander. The end user should also be in that chain of accountability, in writing. I couldn't see someone issuing an item of this value to an end user without getting it in writing. When an accountable item comes up missing, it will be paid for in one way or another. This is why commander's will sub-authorize use of the item to the user in writing, so if it's lost, that individual will pay for it. When a commander doesn't properly sub-authorize equipment and it comes up lost, he himself can end up paying for it. $6000, or two months base pay (for an O-4, Major) worth of missing equipment in a platoon that I took over was paid for in this manner by the commander. When you take accountable items, you might think that you're screwing Uncle Sam, but it's more than likely someone much closer than that. Chris
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 1:25:59 PM EDT
A better place for your "friend" to take this would be here: [url]http://subguns.biggerhammer.net/inquiry.cgi[/url] From past experience here, you quickly realize that some people don't really care what is said on AR15.com. However, if you have a legitimate beef, and are willing to sign your name to it, you *will* get support and satisfaction from many folks over at subguns.com . And my guess is the people there do matter...' Good luck!
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 2:07:41 PM EDT
Forgive my ignorance, but what is an AN/PAQ-4C IR laser aiming device?
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 2:52:21 PM EDT
AN/PAQ-4A/4C Infrared Aiming Light Manufacturer: Insight Technology, Manchester, New Hampshire AN/PAQ-4A: Length: 6.1 inches (15.49 centimeters) Width: 1.7 inches (4.32 centimeters) Height: 2.1 inches (5.33 centimeters) Weight: Without batteries: 2.7 oz. (76.68 grams) With batteries: 9 oz. (255.15 grams) Range: 100 meters minimum Beam divergence: less than 2 milliradians Power source: 1 BA-5567 or 2 AA batteries (BA-3058) Unit Replacement Cost: $402 Features: The AN/PAQ-4A Infrared Aiming Light is a lightweight, battery powered, pulsating infrared-emitting target marking beam, invisible to the naked eye. It allows the user to accurately engage targets at night while wearing night vision goggles. This aiming light is adapted for use with the M16 rifle, and can be adapted for use on the M60 machine gun, the M2 heavy machine gun, and the M249 SAW. The AN/PAQ-4A emits a small, pulsing infrared beam, invisible to the naked eye. The system utilizes a Class I laser (Helium-Neon) to generate the aiming point. It marks targets out to a minimum of 100 meters and a maximum of 200-300 meters depending on the ambient light available. The system can be powered by one standard lithium battery, BA-5567, which will operate the aiming light for 40 hours continuously, or two standard AA batteries. The light weighs 9 ounces and is designed to operate in the -54° C (-129° F) to +65° C (149° F) temperature range. It also meets all military specifications for shock and vibration. Once the beam is boresighted to the weapon for "point of aim/point of impact," the firer simply places the pulsating beam on the target and shoots. Background: The PAQ-4A is meant to be used in conjunction with the AN/PVS-7B Night Vision Goggles. The AN/PAQ-4C is an improved version of the AN/PAQ-4A that will overcome some of the recognized deficiencies in the AN/PAQ-4A. Chris
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 3:24:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2001 4:31:53 PM EDT by slt223]
Are all IR lasers not supposed to be in the hands of civvies? I have definately seen them for sale on discussion boards in the past. About five or six months ago I saw some for sale on Fal files I think. I remember there was a thread on AR15.com asking where to get them. I emailed the guy selling them to let him know therer were people at AR15.com looking for his stuff (I didn't know they were illegal until tonight) and he told me that he doesn't advertise on AR15.com b/c AR15.com'ers aren't willing to pay "fair" prices. I was going to post the email I received from him back then, but I figured it would start a shit storm as he posts on this board, or at least he used to. I didn't care to be in the middle of a shit sandwich and it wouldn't have conducive to anything.
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 10:38:56 PM EDT
[b][size=4][red]Chill the phuck out honey bunny![/red] [blue] Augman is one of the most decent, & honest sellers we've got around here.[/blue][/size=4][/b]
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 11:00:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2001 2:31:55 PM EDT by augman]
I really didnt want to waste my time trying to defend myself with a bunch of half-brainers here but if ya'll want to believe that these units are liberated/stolen US Govt. Property then that is your belief's and what ever I say cant & will not change anything. I do however want ya'll to read Frances post, it's the 10th. post down from the top, I believe he's the only one here using both sides of his brain when he speaks intelligently about something everyone else knows little or nothing about. The last two sentences in the paragraph below are the kicker! Frances Junior Member There is, of course, another potential source for these types of items. These items are often made for both domestic and international use. A distributor may take some of his units that were designed for export or for LE here and decide to sell them to individuals for philosophical or monetary reasons. That may, or may not, get the distributor in trouble with the manufacturer. Or someone may buy the item where it is legal and ship it back to the US. However, in either case, the buyer is getting non-stolen goods. This is common in several industries. They are often called gray market goods.
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 11:36:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2001 11:53:12 PM EDT by slt223]
Hey augman your explanation works for me. I was looking for an answer and got one from you that makes sense. 1, Obviously I DID "chill the phuck out" b/c I didn't post the email with the goal of avoiding mud slinging. Also notice I deliberately didn't mention any names for the same reason. I just thought it was an interesting side note. As I stated before, it would not have been conducive to constructive conversation, which is why I didn't post it. Was I dishonest anywhere in my post? What got you so fired up? BTW, did I ever say Augman was dishonest?
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 6:16:52 AM EDT
btt
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