Posted: 3/23/2009 9:09:16 PM EDT
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I was looking at that ballistics testing website linked on here a few days ago, and the .40 ammo averaged 489 ft-lbs, the .45 averaged 467 ft-lbs. from a 5" barrel.
I always suspected the .40 ammo I saw was averaging a little higher than .45. now there it is in black and white. but how is that? .45 is definitely bigger than .40, I would guess that much difference in size should make the .45 around 90 ft-lbs or more powerful. ending up around 580. unless it's limited by chamber pressures? any guesses as to why this is? |
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I'm more curious to have you explain what exactly you think foot-pounds of energy does, with regard to self-defense. (I assume that's why you ask about foot-pounds) depending on bullet construction, more energy (ft-lbs) makes a less-expanding bullet penetrate through barriers better, or a more-expanding bullet (assuming no core seperation) penetrate through perpetrators better. |
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Muzzle energy is simply a calculation based on velocity and weight. Some rounds with higher muzzle energy are less effective than other rounds with lower muzzle energy. Energy is not the deciding factor. okay, so the ammo actually works better for a .45 when it's less powerful than it could be? |
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Muzzle energy is simply a calculation based on velocity and weight. Some rounds with higher muzzle energy are less effective than other rounds with lower muzzle energy. Energy is not the deciding factor. okay, so the ammo actually works better for a .45 when it's less powerful than it could be? Sometimes. If the velocity (and therefore the energy, as energy=weight*velocity) is too high, a hollow point CAN expand too quickly and then slow down too quickly and may not be able to produce the desired penetration. ETA: It has pretty much been determined that in a pistol, the most important factors for defensive use are expansion (or, total diameter after expansion when comparing different calibers) and penetration. Energy has very little to do with the effectiveness of the round (beyond the amount of energy required to give the desired penetration and expansion). Knock-down is non-existant in any hadgun cartridge. Among different rounds that all have the required penetration, the one with the largest expanded diameter is going to offer the best performance PER ROUND. Obviously more rounds on target can compensate for slightly smaller holes (which is the only advantage a .40 would have over a .45 of similar construction). |
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Muzzle energy is simply a calculation based on velocity and weight. Some rounds with higher muzzle energy are less effective than other rounds with lower muzzle energy. Energy is not the deciding factor. okay, so the ammo actually works better for a .45 when it's less powerful than it could be? Well 45 +P is about as powerful as you want to be in the 45 ACP cartridge, short of 45 Super territory. For example Cor Bon's 165gr 45 +P has 573ft/lbs of muzzle energy. But that round will expand violently and have shallow penetration. Compare that to a quality 230gr hollowpoint at 950, about 460lb/ft...less energy, but will penetrate farther and will be the more effective round between the two. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'm more curious to have you explain what exactly you think foot-pounds of energy does, with regard to self-defense. (I assume that's why you ask about foot-pounds) depending on bullet construction, more energy (ft-lbs) makes a less-expanding bullet penetrate through barriers better, or a more-expanding bullet (assuming no core seperation) penetrate through perpetrators better. Modern high performance JHP designs pretty much wring all the performance out of any caliber. The true test is when that high performance JHP design fails and the bullet performs as ball. In this instance a larger/heavier caliber is going to generally penetrate deeper and destroy more tissue. While .05 extra diameter may appear negligible any advantage you can get in a handgun is wanted as all handguns are poor performers.  The .40 is a bastard caliber attempting to give the capacity of a 9mm with the performance of a .45 and as most compromises it does neither well. |
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Well 45 +P is about as powerful as you want to be in the 45 ACP cartridge, short of 45 Super territory.
For example Cor Bon's 165gr 45 +P has 573ft/lbs of muzzle energy. But that round will expand violently and have shallow penetration. Compare that to a quality 230gr hollowpoint at 950, about 460lb/ft...less energy, but will penetrate farther and will be the more effective round between the two. that must be it. b/cuz full power 10mm's have that much power, but being smaller diameter they don't catch as much material and therefore don't expand as rapidly, but also having that much power, zip right on through skinny perpetrators. thanks for helping me figure that one out. |
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I'd disagree on that, the .40 is a great compromise between capacity and performance.
Modern high performance JHP designs pretty much wring all the performance out of any caliber. The true test is when that high performance JHP design fails and the bullet performs as ball. In this instance a larger/heavier caliber is going to generally penetrate deeper and destroy more tissue. While .05 extra diameter may appear negligible any advantage you can get in a handgun is wanted as all handguns are poor performers.
The .40 is a bastard caliber attempting to give the capacity of a 9mm with the performance of a .45 and as most compromises it does neither well. |
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I'd disagree on that, the .40 is a great compromise between capacity and performance.
Modern high performance JHP designs pretty much wring all the performance out of any caliber. The true test is when that high performance JHP design fails and the bullet performs as ball. In this instance a larger/heavier caliber is going to generally penetrate deeper and destroy more tissue. While .05 extra diameter may appear negligible any advantage you can get in a handgun is wanted as all handguns are poor performers.
The .40 is a bastard caliber attempting to give the capacity of a 9mm with the performance of a .45 and as most compromises it does neither well. 
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Quoted: Quoted: I'd disagree on that, the .40 is a great compromise between capacity and performance.Modern high performance JHP designs pretty much wring all the performance out of any caliber. The true test is when that high performance JHP design fails and the bullet performs as ball. In this instance a larger/heavier caliber is going to generally penetrate deeper and destroy more tissue. While .05 extra diameter may appear negligible any advantage you can get in a handgun is wanted as all handguns are poor performers. The .40 is a bastard caliber attempting to give the capacity of a 9mm with the performance of a .45 and as most compromises it does neither well. You're entitled to your opinion, however it's telling  when you give no support for your conclusion. |
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that chart suggests that while the .40 has more power but ends up about the same diameter as the 9mm and penetrates less, it probably started expanding earlier, so it would have made a larger wound channel. looks like the same thing is going on with the .45, it expanded more than either but penetrated less.
probaly due to the same rapid expansion effect described above. if true, .40 wins capacity/performance ratio if the .40 expanded at the same rate as the 9mm... well then the 9mm wins. |
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Quoted:
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I'd disagree on that, the .40 is a great compromise between capacity and performance.
Modern high performance JHP designs pretty much wring all the performance out of any caliber. The true test is when that high performance JHP design fails and the bullet performs as ball. In this instance a larger/heavier caliber is going to generally penetrate deeper and destroy more tissue. While .05 extra diameter may appear negligible any advantage you can get in a handgun is wanted as all handguns are poor performers.
The .40 is a bastard caliber attempting to give the capacity of a 9mm with the performance of a .45 and as most compromises it does neither well. You're entitled to your opinion, however it's telling when you give no support for your conclusion. why not? you didn't. anyways see my last reply for some support. |
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that chart suggests that while the .40 has more power but ends up about the same diameter as the 9mm and penetrates less, it probably started expanding earlier, so it would have made a larger wound channel. looks like the same thing is going on with the .45, it expanded more than either but penetrated less. probaly due to the same rapid expansion effect described above. if true, .40 wins capacity/performance ratio if the .40 expanded at the same rate as the 9mm... well then the 9mm wins. They expand at pretty much the same rate. And 230gr +P 45 penetrates much farther but I don't have that chart saved. Here is the link, you can look stuff up yourself. http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/flash/win_flash.html |
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Quoted: that chart suggests that while the .40 has more power but ends up about the same diameter as the 9mm and penetrates less, it probably started expanding earlier, so it would have made a larger wound channel. That's one hell of a leap to make from nothing more than an expanded bullet. |
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because...
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That's one hell of a leap to make from nothing more than an expanded bullet.that chart suggests that while the .40 has more power but ends up about the same diameter as the 9mm and penetrates less, it probably started expanding earlier, so it would have made a larger wound channel. looks like the same thing is going on with the .45, it expanded more than either but penetrated less.
probaly due to the same rapid expansion effect described above. that's what happens when you take things out of context. |
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Quoted: Quoted: because...Quoted: That's one hell of a leap to make from nothing more than an expanded bullet.that chart suggests that while the .40 has more power but ends up about the same diameter as the 9mm and penetrates less, it probably started expanding earlier, so it would have made a larger wound channel. looks like the same thing is going on with the .45, it expanded more than either but penetrated less. probaly due to the same rapid expansion effect described above. that's what happens when you take things out of context. Bringing another caliber into the mix still doesn't explain your extrapolation, but OK. Have it your way.
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'd disagree on that, the .40 is a great compromise between capacity and performance.Modern high performance JHP designs pretty much wring all the performance out of any caliber. The true test is when that high performance JHP design fails and the bullet performs as ball. In this instance a larger/heavier caliber is going to generally penetrate deeper and destroy more tissue. While .05 extra diameter may appear negligible any advantage you can get in a handgun is wanted as all handguns are poor performers. The .40 is a bastard caliber attempting to give the capacity of a 9mm with the performance of a .45 and as most compromises it does neither well. You're entitled to your opinion, however it's telling when you give no support for your conclusion. why not? you didn't. anyways see my last reply for some support. R E A D I N G - C O M P R H E N S I O N ........................ get some, then graduate high school. |
| I can stop an attacker with one shot, 9/10 times. 2 shots 10/10 times. Those big guns are nice if you feel you need it (I have a .40 and .45) but I rock the .22 as my carry. That's what I've trained with, that's what I know for a fact will get the job done. The trick with .22 is shot placement. If you shoot someone in the face, especially the eye, they will leave you alone. It works. |
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Quoted: I can stop an attacker with one shot, 9/10 times. 2 shots 10/10 times. Those big guns are nice if you feel you need it (I have a .40 and .45) but I rock the .22 as my carry. That's what I've trained with, that's what I know for a fact will get the job done. The trick with .22 is shot placement. If you shoot someone in the face, especially the eye, they will leave you alone. It works.  |
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I can stop an attacker with one shot, 9/10 times. 2 shots 10/10 times. Those big guns are nice if you feel you need it (I have a .40 and .45) but I rock the .22 as my carry. That's what I've trained with, that's what I know for a fact will get the job done. The trick with .22 is shot placement. If you shoot someone in the face, especially the eye, they will leave you alone. It works. 
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For fuck's sake, there is hardly any neglible difference between a quality 9mm, .40 or .45 round. Pick one you like, that you shoot well, and quit trying to prove shit that can't really be proven. Fact of the matter is, if you like one particular round over another, you'll find a way to sway the argument in your favor. |
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.45 vs .40 vs 9mm issues.
Penetration (over/under) issues. Transference of energy issues. Expansion issues. Velocity Issues. Ball vs HP issues. "Knock down" issues. My take on the whole thing is whatever caliber you choose. Shot placement is the key! Shooting the hand may not take the bad guy out of the fight. Depressurizing the cardio-vascular system or neutralizing the central nervous system will do the trick. Put the bullet where it will do the most damage. But hey, That's just my opinion. |
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I'm more curious to have you explain what exactly you think foot-pounds of energy does, with regard to self-defense. (I assume that's why you ask about foot-pounds) depending on bullet construction, more energy (ft-lbs) makes a less-expanding bullet penetrate through barriers better, or a more-expanding bullet (assuming no core seperation) penetrate through perpetrators better. Now this is the kind of insightful knowledge I come to GD to get. I don't know why I waste time reading stuff by people like DocGKR, etc.
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I guess the FBI swat teams have no clue. They droped the .40 due to penetration problems and went back to the .45 in 1999, due to well documented penetration problems with the .40. I guess all the FBI testing was biased.
They published all their results. All you have to do is look them up. But, believe what you want, this is the interweb. 
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For fuck's sake, there is hardly any neglible difference between a quality 9mm, .40 or .45 round. Pick one you like, that you shoot well, and quit trying to prove shit that can't really be proven. Fact of the matter is, if you like one particular round over another, you'll find a way to sway the argument in your favor. I was surprised to see the similarities between the JHP's among various calibers in the chart posted above. They are all pretty similar, but .357 SIG appears a little "weaker". Am I reading the .357 SIG results incorrectly? |
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Simplistically:
Work = change in energy = force times distance. (actually it's the dot product but since the force on the bullet is aligned with the barrel, you can just multiply) Force on the bullet = Pressure times the area of the bullet. While the .40 bullet has about 20% less area than a .45 bullet, the .40 S&W operates at a higher pressure than a .45 acp. That's why it has more energy. |
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Simplistically: Work = change in energy = force times distance. (actually it's the dot product but since the force on the bullet is aligned with the barrel, you can just multiply) Force on the bullet = Pressure times the area of the bullet. While the .40 bullet has about 20% less area than a .45 bullet, the .40 S&W operates at a higher pressure than a .45 acp. That's why it has more energy. Whut? |
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I can stop an attacker with one shot, 9/10 times. 2 shots 10/10 times. Those big guns are nice if you feel you need it (I have a .40 and .45) but I rock the .22 as my carry. That's what I've trained with, that's what I know for a fact will get the job done. The trick with .22 is shot placement. If you shoot someone in the face, especially the eye, they will leave you alone. It works. 
I tried to stay out of this thread... 
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I can stop an attacker with one shot, 9/10 times. 2 shots 10/10 times. Those big guns are nice if you feel you need it (I have a .40 and .45) but I rock the .22 as my carry. That's what I've trained with, that's what I know for a fact will get the job done. The trick with .22 is shot placement. If you shoot someone in the face, especially the eye, they will leave you alone. It works. You are saying that you have shot at least ten people with one shot, stopping nine. You have shot ten people with two shots, stopping all. You have stopped/killed at least twenty people. You have trained with a .22 caliber handgun. You shoot people in the face, the eye in fact.
Your eyes ARE brown. 
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