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Posted: 1/1/2002 10:00:39 PM EDT
He would be wishing this was the last GOD post on this board. God loves you the most when you shut up about God. Osama loves God, Hitler thought God loved him, Americans used God on the native-americans, God likes the jews and God appears to support HAMAS. God likes Jerry Farwell and God likes Louis Farrakan. I am thinking God has made a mistake someplace or people that love God can be as annoying as those that do not.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 10:03:40 PM EDT
He would be wishing this was the last GOD post on this board
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LOL! Hey everybody! LoneGunman has been conversing with God! Let's follow him around and see if he has any more tidbits of wisdom! ...*watches [i]Life of Brian[/i] again*...
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 10:12:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 10:42:18 PM EDT
[u]Now[/u] I know where I've heard your name before! Eric The(UsuallyDuringTheHolidays,Too)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 10:51:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2002 10:54:01 PM EDT by punkatomic]
God is not a He, I don't know what God is but God is not a He. God is not to be anthropomorphized by humans who have never seen God. But I think God has a pretty good idea what is posted here at AR15.com. So be kind to your fellow members.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 1:10:52 AM EDT
I don't know what god is either, other than some kind of M–Fing SOB who allows millions of children to die painfull, lingering deaths year in, year out. Never been able to reconcile this merciful, omnipitent being crap with the charred bodies; the raped babies and starving kids. I've heard all the excuses and listened to all the reasons and pseudo-logic until I could hardly prevent myself from throwing-up. If you attempted to apply the same level of rationale and logic to anything else, anyone would call it what it is: BULLSHIT! If it wasn't such an ingrained concept (and indusrty) they'd probably wouldn't let you on the "Home Shopping Channel" if you tried to market this kind of crap.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 3:17:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lonegunman: He would be wishing this was the last GOD post on this board. God loves you the most when you shut up about God. Osama loves God, Hitler thought God loved him, Americans used God on the native-americans, God likes the jews and God appears to support HAMAS. God likes Jerry Farwell and God likes Louis Farrakan. I am thinking God has made a mistake someplace or people that love God can be as annoying as those that do not.
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[:K] Alllllllrighty then... This is how we're going to start the new year? Geeeez..... Oh, you forgot to add: God loves you, too. -kid
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 4:24:56 AM EDT
Post from stcyr -
I don't know what god is either, other than some kind of M–Fing SOB who allows millions of children to die painfull, lingering deaths year in, year out.
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Well, then Mother Nature is quite a bitch! How is it that She let's all this crap happen? Eric The(Sorry,Lord,ItHadToBeSaid)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 4:30:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Well, then Mother Nature is quite a bitch! How is it that She let's all this crap happen? Eric The(Sorry,Lord,ItHadToBeSaid)Hun[>]:)]
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Beautiful! It [b]is[/b] all Mother Nature's fault then. Case closed! [:D]
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 4:38:24 AM EDT
Americans used God on the native-americans[/quotee] What the heck does that mean? It makes it sound as if God were some sort of toxic chemical that those bad, bad male capitalist pigs sprayed out of airplanes onto the poor, sweet, tree-hugging aboriginal americans. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 5:11:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: It makes it sound as if God were some sort of toxic chemical that those bad, bad male capitalist pigs sprayed out of airplanes onto the poor, sweet, tree-hugging aboriginal americans. [rolleyes]
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[:D] LOL You forgot "white."
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 5:22:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By stcyr: I don't know what god is either, other than some kind of M–Fing SOB who allows millions of children to die painfull, lingering deaths year in, year out.
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Heinlein said something to the effect of "All-Knowing, All Powerful, and All Benevolent/Loving... pick two". He meant that you can have any two of the traits, and it still makes sense, but if you claim all three attributes then there is a contradiction with the state of the world. Make of it what you think it's worth, I'm just passing it along for debate's sake.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 5:53:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spearweasel: Heinlein said something to the effect of "All-Knowing, All Powerful, and All Benevolent/Loving... pick two". He meant that you can have any two of the traits, and it still makes sense, but if you claim all three attributes then there is a contradiction with the state of the world.
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That's an interesting thought. However, just because Someone is all-knowing or all powerful doesn't necessaily prevent them from being all loving. He has the option of NOT ACTING on His knowledge and not utilizing His power. His non-action in light of mens sinful activities would actually MAKE Him, in certain instances, to be all-loving. Its the difference between potential energy (power) / knowledge and kinetic energy (power) / knowledge. Lastly, we must define "all-loving." Is it loving to spank a child that wishes to touch a red hot wood stove? YES, ABSOLUTELY. So, when God acts in punishing wrong-doing which will ULTIMATELY lead to the destruction of the individual, God's punishment to discourage the harmful activity (spanking the child) would be illustration of His all-loving nature.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 6:17:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spearweasel: Heinlein said something to the effect of "All-Knowing, All Powerful, and All Benevolent/Loving... pick two". He meant that you can have any two of the traits, and it still makes sense, but if you claim all three attributes then there is a contradiction with the state of the world.
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Heinlein had quite a bit to say about God and religion. I think this one may be what you were thinking of:
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent -- it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks, please. Cash and in small bills.
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As to Falwell, Farrakan, et. al., I like this one:
The profession of shaman has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes on to suspect that the shaman is on the moral level of any other con man. But it's lovely work if you can stomach it.
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Garandman took offense to this one (Sorry, G-man):
The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.
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And then, there's this:
History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
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And these threads illustrate the "pleasure from fiddling" part.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 6:37:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker: Garandman took offense to this one (Sorry, G-man):
The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.
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.
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I don't recall taking "offense." I DO recall taking issue with it, which is VERY different.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 6:47:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By stcyr: I don't know what god is either, other than some kind of M–Fing SOB who allows millions of children to die painfull, lingering deaths year in, year out. Never been able to reconcile this merciful, omnipitent being crap with the charred bodies; the raped babies and starving kids.
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So because God allows us to commit sin, you say God is a "M-Fing SOB". God gives us free will to do good or to do evil. So tell me stcyr, what are YOU doing directly to stop evil? If these evil acts were happening in your front yard, wouldn't you stop it immediately? But since it's not, you don't want to inconvenience yourself by taking the time and effort needed to stop such evil acts. I suppose then that YOU are the real "M-Fing SOB" by your own definition. YOU see evil every day, and you let it happen. God allows us to choose good or evil. YOU are just upset that much of humanity is choosing evil and "blame" God for the evil caused by humanity. God doesn't commit evil, he allows people like YOU the ability to stop it - if you were really motiviated. God gave us the ability to stop those who commit evil, but because of pride and selfishness, WE are the ones who "allow" it. YOU are angry at God that some people use the name of "God" to commit evil sins. Isn't that like blaming the the gun for the crimes committed with guns?
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 3:21:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By Spearweasel: Heinlein said something to the effect of "All-Knowing, All Powerful, and All Benevolent/Loving... pick two". He meant that you can have any two of the traits, and it still makes sense, but if you claim all three attributes then there is a contradiction with the state of the world.
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That's an interesting thought. However, just because Someone is all-knowing or all powerful doesn't necessaily prevent them from being all loving. He has the option of NOT ACTING on His knowledge and not utilizing His power. His non-action in light of mens sinful activities would actually MAKE Him, in certain instances, to be all-loving. Its the difference between potential energy (power) / knowledge and kinetic energy (power) / knowledge. Lastly, we must define "all-loving." Is it loving to spank a child that wishes to touch a red hot wood stove? YES, ABSOLUTELY. So, when God acts in punishing wrong-doing which will ULTIMATELY lead to the destruction of the individual, God's punishment to discourage the harmful activity (spanking the child) would be illustration of His all-loving nature.
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Interesting that your analogy involves burning... [flame] I think where I have the problem is not the existence of evil and suffering in this world. I can accept that God might allow us to poop in our own playpen, so to speak. That's the price of free will. My problem with Christianity is not with the hypocrites... you find them anywhere you find people. It is with the doctrine of Hell. Unlike many theologies, the Christian Hell is eternal, an eternal separation from God (fire and brimstone being gravy on top). If God was all-powerful, it would seem that he were cruel for allowing souls to suffer in torment for ALL ETERNITY, as opposed to the Muslim version (suffer until cleansed) or the Buddhist version (suffer until you get the hint). If God is all-loving, then this just makes no sense at all. If a child is continually touching the stove, if you love the child, you don't allow the child to [flame]first [flame]soak [flame]itself in the [flame]kerosene and then play with the stove[flame], where you [flame]know it will be burned horribly and permanently[flame], possibly to death[flame]. That's not love, that's just sick. The analogy of humans and sin to a wilful child is apt. Humans sin, ask forgiveness, and sin again. Sometimes, they are willfully wrong to their deathbeds. Hell to me seems like a sadistic "I told you so". G-Man, please explain this to me. I know it sounds like Trolling, but you are both devout and well-spoken, maybe you can explain it to me. This is a major stumbling block for my twice-failed attempts to make a "leap of faith" stick. How can an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God abandon his beloved creations, whom He gave his Son to cleanse of sin, how can he abandon them to Hell forever?
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 4:58:26 PM EDT
Just a couple of points Macallan: 1. Unlike your god, I'm not omnipitent. The day I become so, I will address the tasks you outlined. 2. If you accept the 'freedom for mankind to choose good or evil' concept, I can see how it allows you to let god off the hook. But, it does not answer the question of why this benificent god of yours allows babies to starve to death. It's a simple question that does not require some tired philosophical debate to justify your god's action/inaction. Floods and famines are nothing to do with anyone's freedom to choose between good and evil, they simply bring an early death to innocent children! Frankly, I cannot see the point of this grand experiment of this god of yours. He/she/it creates a universe, populates it and gives everyone the opportunity to either worship or ignore he/she/it, or not. If you choose to spend your life worshiping and praising god, you get a big reward. If you don't, you get to burn in hell for all eternity. Sounds to me that this god of yours should see a shrink!
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 6:04:26 PM EDT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By stcyr: I don't know what god is either, other than some kind of M–Fing SOB who allows millions of children to die painfull, lingering deaths year in, year out. Never been able to reconcile this merciful, omnipitent being crap with the charred bodies; the raped babies and starving kids. God said he would take care of the baby killers. If there was no God.I wouldn't have the time or the will to bury all the baby killers.Tell I get the word I will just wait on him. [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/041/v6/GJ/UK/vN18343.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 6:42:53 PM EDT
Tighten up Guy and Gals, this is getting a little too wierd.[%|]
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 7:11:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Spearweasel: My problem with Christianity is not with the hypocrites... you find them anywhere you find people. It is with the doctrine of Hell. Unlike many theologies, the Christian Hell is eternal, an eternal separation from God (fire and brimstone being gravy on top). If God was all-powerful, it would seem that he were cruel for allowing souls to suffer in torment for ALL ETERNITY, as opposed to the Muslim version (suffer until cleansed) or the Buddhist version (suffer until you get the hint). If God is all-loving, then this just makes no sense at all. Hell to me seems like a sadistic "I told you so". G-Man, please explain this to me. I know it sounds like Trolling, but you are both devout and well-spoken, maybe you can explain it to me. This is a major stumbling block for my twice-failed attempts to make a "leap of faith" stick. How can an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God abandon his beloved creations, whom He gave his Son to cleanse of sin, how can he abandon them to Hell forever?
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I'll give this a crack. Hopefully I won't confuse you since I can get somewhat wordy at times. The notion of Hell being eternal comes from God being outside of time. He is loving and merciful, but He is also just (allowing a person to experience what they deserve). When a person dies, there is no chance to change. Either one dies with God's life in us or we don't. If we do, we go to Heaven to share more fully in His life. If we don't, we have made a choice to separate ourselves from Him. The state we die in is the state we will remain in. It isn't God saying "I told you so," it's God honoring our free will, saying "You chose not to love me and to separate yourself from me, so I will abide by your choice to exist the way you wanted to exist (separated from Me)." It is not He who has abandoned us, but we who have abandoned Him. Since we can't change our mind after we die, then forcing us into Heaven (and thus into a deeper relationship of love with Him) would violate the very free will that He gave us, forcing us to enjoy something we don't want and have rejected by our thoughts and actions. This is not love. Love wants the best for a person, but also respects their free will, since returning that love must be a free choice. I hope this helps and doesn't confuse you. loonybin
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 7:38:31 PM EDT
Loonybin, I understand the point just fine. I just don't agree with it. Thanks for the explanation tho. Do you have biblical cites to refer to for your points? I'm interested in the scriptural basis for stuff like this. It's always enlightening.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 8:10:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stcyr: Just a couple of points Macallan: 1. Unlike your god, I'm not omnipitent. The day I become so, I will address the tasks you outlined. 2. If you accept the 'freedom for mankind to choose good or evil' concept, I can see how it allows you to let god off the hook. But, it does not answer the question of why this benificent god of yours allows babies to starve to death. It's a simple question that does not require some tired philosophical debate to justify your god's action/inaction. Floods and famines are nothing to do with anyone's freedom to choose between good and evil, they simply bring an early death to innocent children! Frankly, I cannot see the point of this grand experiment of this god of yours. He/she/it creates a universe, populates it and gives everyone the opportunity to either worship or ignore he/she/it, or not. If you choose to spend your life worshiping and praising god, you get a big reward. If you don't, you get to burn in hell for all eternity. Sounds to me that this god of yours should see a shrink!
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You're making several big (and false) assumptions: [b]1) The absence of all evil is more desirable than free will. [/b] (Liberals apply this assumption to RKBA all the time) I thought most conservatives prefer freedom in society even if it sometimes allows the occurence of evil, and resist government attempts to eliminate evil by restricting freedom. Isn't freedom-with-occasional-evil "better" than no-freedom-with-no-evil? [b]2) God permits evil because it has not been extinguished yet.[/b] The question of why God allows the [b]persistence[b] of evil is not the same as why God permits evil to exist. God's time is not our time. God will extinguish evil at a time of His choosing, not ours. Just because it "appears" God permits evil because it has not yet been extinguished at a time that satisfies stcyr does not mean God is a M-Fing SOB. Remember, God made evil [u]possible[/u]; but free will humans make evil [u]actual[/u]. As far as natural disasters and disease, again the Bible teaches that WE are responsible for falling from grace and separating ourselves from God's protection. When humanity expelled itself from the "Garden of Eden" by believing we don't need to obey God, we reaped what we sowed. A hard and bitter life. It was not "punishment" rather than simple consequence of leaving the side of God to "go it alone". You may not think it fair that babies are born deformed or drown in floods, and of course it is not at all desirable. But we are not in the "Garden of Eden" anymore. This life with all it's pain and suffering is just a glimpse of what it's like to be without God. But God certainly does not WANT this for us. Don't blame God for the world being hard. One more thing - these questions you raise are very powerful. They have troubled faithful followers of God for all of history. There are no completely satisfactory answers to the question of "Why did that baby have to suffer like that?" Those questions test our faith because they exceed our understanding. Think, read and, yes even pray about it. There are no easy answers. If there were, we'd be in heaven already.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 9:27:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By One_Slayer: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By stcyr: I don't know what god is either, other than some kind of M–Fing SOB who allows millions of children to die painfull, lingering deaths year in, year out. Never been able to reconcile this merciful, omnipitent being crap with the charred bodies; the raped babies and starving kids. God said he would take care of the baby killers. If there was no God.I wouldn't have the time or the will to bury all the baby killers.Tell I get the word I will just wait on him. [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/041/v6/GJ/UK/vN18343.jpg[/img]
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Travis? Travis Bickle? Is that you? You're right xanadu, this is getting a little creepy...
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 10:22:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lonegunman: He would be wishing this was the last GOD post on this board. God loves you the most when you shut up about God. Osama loves God, Hitler thought God loved him, Americans used God on the native-americans, God likes the jews and God appears to support HAMAS. God likes Jerry Farwell and God likes Louis Farrakan. I am thinking God has made a mistake someplace or people that love God can be as annoying as those that do not.
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Amen. And since Jah is the Ratafarian god, I think I'll pass the "peace pipe" in His honor. Hell, why just celebrate one? What's the name of that 8 armed Hindu god-babe? Shiva? Now that's a god worth worshiping. After Ganja with Jah and A "communion" with Shiva....some how I thgink I'd be religious after all. [img] bloodred.gothic-domain.com/images/shiva.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 5:26:49 AM EDT
As far as natural disasters and disease, again the Bible teaches that WE are responsible for falling from grace and separating ourselves from God's protection. When humanity expelled itself from the "Garden of Eden" by believing we don't need to obey God, we reaped what we sowed. A hard and bitter life. It was not "punishment" rather than simple consequence of leaving the side of God to "go it alone". You may not think it fair that babies are born deformed or drown in floods, and of course it is not at all desirable. But we are not in the "Garden of Eden" anymore. This life with all it's pain and suffering is just a glimpse of what it's like to be without God. But God certainly does not WANT this for us. Don't blame God for the world being hard.
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"WE" are responsible? Unless your name is Adam or Eve, I don't think so. [;)] If the Bible story is true, then billions of people have suffered for two persons' mistake. What's more, if eating the forbidden fruit gave knowledge of good and evil ("And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"), then Adam and Eve were as innocent as little children at the time they chose to eat it. Was it fair to punish them for a choice they made without any moral guidelines? Also, God's warned Adam and Eve that [b]they[/b] would "surely die" after eating the fruit; he didn't mention any consequences for future generations. God could have kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden, let them die, and then created a new couple to try again.
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 7:12:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: "WE" are responsible? Unless your name is Adam or Eve, I don't think so. [;)] If the Bible story is true, then billions of people have suffered for two persons' mistake.
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Millions of people suffered because of Hitler's "mistake", didn't they?. If I choose a life of sin, my children (and subsequently their children...)will certainly be affected by the consequences of MY choices won't they? That shows that the "mind your own business - let me live MY life as I want" attitude results in many other people being affected.
What's more, if eating the forbidden fruit gave knowledge of good and evil ("And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"), then Adam and Eve were as innocent as little children at the time they chose to eat it. Was it fair to punish them for a choice they made without any moral guidelines?
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"Without any moral guidelines"?!! God gave [b]ONE[/b] simple command to humanity (don't eat of [i]this[/i] fruit, and we STILL blew it! Some see the Garden story as literal, some see it as metaphorical. Either way, the truth it reveals is the sinful nature of humanity and the consequences of that sin is separation from God's protection - by OUR choices. You can think of the Garden story rehappening every day in the choices we make - the decision to "go it alone" and rely on OUR own reason/judgement and discard the need for God in our lives - hence, separation from God because of our sin occurs every day. So yes, in a sense, we are all named Adam and Eve - and we choose sin over God every day.
God could have kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden, let them die, and then created a new couple to try again.
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Billions of people later, we still reject God. Would YOU have fared any better in the Garden? Wouldn't you have tested the limits, pushed the boundries, tried to bend the rules? Would YOU have relied on your own reason rather than obey God? You do it now I bet. Humanity's nature is to sin because we have the ability to [u]know[/u] good and evil but we don't [u]choose[/u] to do ONLY good.
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 7:23:31 AM EDT
The bible has a lot to say about mediocrity of faith. I'll be dead honest, right now I have a tremendous crisis of faith. I can't say I blindly believe in God, and if He's real, I sure as hell am not going to dis him with false faith. I'd like to have it out with him sometime, maybe sit down with some of this homebrewed apple brandy on my front porch and talk about a few things. If that's presumptuous, so be it, but I don't have the blind faith so many people espouse. God Bless'em if they have it, God forgive'em if they're leading us all on. shooter
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 7:33:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shooterX308: I'd like to have it out with him sometime, maybe sit down with some of this homebrewed apple brandy on my front porch and talk about a few things. If that's presumptuous, so be it... shooter
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As reverently as you can, I recommend you do just that - have it out with God. Obviosuly, it won't be over sipping brandy, but you can do it just the same. I've done it. I've asked God what right he had to give my wife cancer at 34 yrs old. Yes, I was going thru a "crisis of faith" at the time. If you go into it with the right attitude, not mocking God, and honestly seeking, He will answer.
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 7:34:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shooterX308: I'd like to have it out with him sometime, maybe sit down with some of this homebrewed apple brandy on my front porch and talk about a few things.
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Save me a swig! [;)]
If that's presumptuous, so be it, but I don't have the blind faith so many people espouse. God Bless'em if they have it, God forgive'em if they're leading us all on.
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I think a lot of people don't have the full faith they want to. It's hard to be faithful in these times.
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 7:45:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: If you go into it with the right attitude, not mocking God, and honestly seeking, He will answer.
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He will answer? What language?? Man the long distance charges have just got to be MURDER!
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 9:06:06 AM EDT
Millions of people suffered because of Hitler's "mistake", didn't they?
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I wouldn't characterize Hitler's career of evil as a "mistake"; it's not as if all the pain he inflicted on others resulted from a single lapse of judgement. Those who suffered were victims of Nazi aggression or participants in it. Neither case is a good parallel to the descendants of Adam and Eve.
If I choose a life of sin, my children (and subsequently their children...)will certainly be affected by the consequences of MY choices won't they?
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Yes, to some degree, but the influence of your choice will diminish over the generations. Twenty centuries from now, it's quite unlikely that your offspring will know or care who you were or what you did.
Without any moral guidelines"?!! God gave ONE simple command to humanity (don't eat of this fruit, and we STILL blew it!
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Without knowledge of good and evil, how could Adam and Eve be expected to obey ANY command? Would you drop a hand grenade into a toddler's crib and expect him to obey the simple command of "Don't pull the pin"?
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 9:24:17 AM EDT
If there was no God where would we be. who would we obey? who would rule over us? Other men? We know how well that works. Even if God were only a social contruct it is the only one that has a chance of working. Somtimes. A little bit. Maybe.
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 9:29:05 AM EDT
I like one of Lonegunmans comments. That God likes Jerry Farwell and God likes Louis Farrakan. "God loves us, but just likes them." :) I won't argue with some trying to defend the God I worship. I believe he can take care of himself. I don't understand though why so many people blame God for everything bad. Aren't some of these people the same people that say we should be responsible for our own actions, always someone elses fault? huh. Just my $.02
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 9:48:32 AM EDT
Some see the Garden story as literal, some see it as metaphorical.
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The literal interpretation would be difficult. Why, for instance, would an omniscient God have to call out to Adam to find him? ("And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" Genesis 3:9) And why don't serpents eat dust the way God decreed they would? ("And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life" Genesis 3:14)
Either way, the truth it reveals is the sinful nature of humanity and the consequences of that sin is separation from God's protection - by OUR choices.
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But does that answer the question of why innocents suffer from natural causes? Has a baby born with a crippling disease chosen to sin? In some cases, the connection between sin and suffering seems like quite a stretch.
Would YOU have fared any better in the Garden? Wouldn't you have tested the limits, pushed the boundries, tried to bend the rules?
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That's an interesting question. What would have happened if Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of life before they tasted the fruit of knowledge? Or what if Eve had sinned but Adam hadn't? Or what if God hadn't given serpents vocal cords? [;)] I don't know if EVERY person who's ever lived would have chosen disobedience, but the original sin story has them ALL suffering as if they had.
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 9:56:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: Yes, to some degree, but the influence of your choice will diminish over the generations. Twenty centuries from now, it's quite unlikely that your offspring will know or care who you were or what you did.
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If I move to India tomorrow and convert to Hindu, I think all of my generations of offspring would be dramatically affected by that single choice.
Without knowledge of good and evil, how could Adam and Eve be expected to obey ANY command?
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By "knowledge" one can mean that A&E were gaining the FULL experience of good and evil. They did not fully "know" sin until they had actually committed it. No, I would not give a baby a grenade UNLESS I also gave the baby the ability to have everlasting life (such as through Jesus at the cross) [b]regardless[/b] of whether they pull the pin. We are all going to die and we have no choice in that - but we may also live with God afterwards and THAT is our choice. Again, I think the Garden story recurs (sp?) over and over again in our daily lives. We know good and bad and often choose bad. And each time we separate ourselves from God all over again. Tough questions for sure Renamed. Like I said, they have been trying the faith of thousands of men who are hundreds of times more wise than me for thousands of years. No easy answers.
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 10:38:52 AM EDT
I would like to apologize to anyone on this board whom I have offended by my reference to your god as a M-Fing SOB. I had been reading about the African AIDS "cure", i.e. raping babies, and my anger spilled over when I joined this thread. That's not an excuse for my bad taste, it is merely the explanation. However, the question I asked has not been answered. Why does your god create a world were millions of innocent children die every year from pestilence and famine? I'm not referring to the actions of evil men, I am referring to what we call "Acts of God". One explanation was that it's mother nature's fault – But, I was under the impression that god was supposed to be mother nature's boss. I have been told that I should be doing something to stop it myself. – This is not an answer, it is simply a diversion. There have been other "answers" that rely on the Bible for evidence or support. Frankly, this has always puzzled me. While some parts of the Bible strike me as solid commonsense, some parts are an insult to anyone's intelligence, while still other parts appear to be incomprehensible ravings. Why should any rational individual choose to live their life based on such a book? I've never understood the logic that many Christians apply when they attempt to substanciate their beliefs by referring to an old book that is simply a written version of those same beliefs. And I fail to see how the ability to quote large parts of this book adds to the validity of their arguments. Simply putting a collection of ancient stories (that have undergone countless translations) into print, doesn't make them true, it just makes them more easily available to those who believe the stories in the first place.
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 12:34:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2002 12:39:20 PM EDT by shooterX308]
Originally Posted By garandman: As reverently as you can, I recommend you do just that - have it out with God.
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You mean rant and rave like Robert Duvall? Or quietly speak? Is one better than the other?
Obviosuly, it won't be over sipping brandy, but you can do it just the same.
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Hmm. My vision of God has him sitting on the front porch of an old cabin in the mountains, rocking quietly and maybe scratching a fiddle. Sort of like George Burns in that movie with John Denver. I can relate to that better than the Cistine Chapel thing.
I've done it. I've asked God what right he had to give my wife cancer at 34 yrs old. Yes, I was going thru a "crisis of faith" at the time.
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Who says God did it? Who says that Satan did it? Who says it was just one of those damned biological snafus that affects everybody? You know, like the saying: It rains on the just and unjust alike? To me, unless God plants a burning bush with the answer right in front of me, I can't hear the still small voice with any amount of confidence. Sorry. By the way, I'm sorry for you and your wife's trials, that is truly a kick in the gut.
If you go into it with the right attitude, not mocking God, and honestly seeking, He will answer.
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I guess I haven't got the Right Attitude yet. What is that, anyway? I will stand by you fast on one issue: mocking someone's belief in God is truly the despicable act of a coward who can't face their own fears and shortcomings. However, when it comes to what they may [i]do[/i] in the name of their God, well, that can be a free fire situation as far as I'm concerned. shooter[|)]
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 12:36:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stormbringer:
Originally Posted By garandman: If you go into it with the right attitude, not mocking God, and honestly seeking, He will answer.
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He will answer? What language?? Man the long distance charges have just got to be MURDER!
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I hope you had a respectful smile on your face when you said that.
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