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Posted: 12/27/2001 11:24:25 AM EDT
An East Providence Police Officer SWAT just shot and killed another Officer during a training exercise.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 11:39:38 AM EDT
That's gotta suck. I'd hate to be either one of those guys.... Any more details? Link to an article?
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 11:49:52 AM EDT
This training exercise was being conducted at the school bus garage in a densely populated business area and not at a range, so there should not have been any loaded weapons, but the Chief of Police said that these officers were highly trained and experienced. These are the people we are forced to trust with our lives. I think I am now in favor of gun control and gun bans at least for our police. If this happened to a regular citizens who was licensed to carry this same police chief and the rest of the gun grabbers would be using this as a reason why we regular citizens should not be permitted to carry and should not even own guns in the first place. VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 11:54:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 11:55:56 AM EDT
You know he assumes a lot of things in that post. He also makes a lot of generalizations, I think he just "profiled" a whole bunch of people..........
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 11:56:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 11:59:42 AM EDT
This incident sounds similar to what occured in Arlington a few months ago. The SWAT had been conducting a training with Simunitions except one of the instructors, I believe, had his duty sidearm with him. Without thinking he pulled it out and shot another officer in the head killing him instantly. He was eventually fired and I just heard last week that he was going to quit fighting to get his job back. I guess with a trillion different SWAT teams all over the country out there playing with guns everyday accidents are going to happen and when enough accidents happen with guns then eventually people get seriously injured or killed. I would hate to be the shooter right now. I bet he feels pretty empty.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 12:06:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2001 12:07:59 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 12:08:44 PM EDT
[url]http://www.projo.com/cgi-bin/include.pl/digitalbulletin/story_122701.htm[/url] EAST PROVIDENCE — An East Providence police officer was accidentally shot and killed today by another officer during a training exercise, Police Chief Gary Dias said this afternoon. Speaking at a 3 p.m. televised press conference, held outdoors near the shooting site on Commercial Way, Dias said it is not yet clear exactly how the shooting occurred. He would not release the identity of either officer, pending notification of kin. The second officer, the chief said, has been brought to a hospital, which he did not identify. He had no explanation for a reporter's query about whether the use of live ammunition would routinely be part of such an excercise, saying, "It should not have been. We haven't determined that yet." He said the shooting occurred as a group of 12 officers was taking part in a scenario geared to handling the taking of student hostages aboard a school bus. The exercise was held at a bus storage yard on Commerical Way. Dias would not say whether the shooting happened in or outside of a bus. Dias did describe the officers in the exercise, who were part of the department's SWAT team, as "very experienced." He also said such exercises were held once or twice a month. His department is now investigating the shooting, along with State Police. Standing hatless in the cold, as cars and trucks criss-crossed the highway behind him, Dias shook slightly as he fielded reporters' questions for about 15 minutes. Asked where the investigation might lead, Dias said, "I don't know where it will end." Ask how he and his department would cope with the shooting, he simply said, "I don't know."
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 12:15:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2001 12:51:35 PM EDT by TheCommissioner]
[img]http://peopleofspringfield.8m.com/chiefwiggum1.gif[/img]DOH!
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 12:29:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: Without thinking he pulled it out and shot another officer in the head killing him instantly.
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Agreed, Ponyboy. I just wonder how many safety protocols were violated by the instructor for this to happen. Reminds me of an old CG boating safety instructor who always said: "Accidents don't just happen, they are [i]caused[/i]".
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Well, what was really ironic about the whole situation is that everyone was required to hand over their duty weapons to be secured, supposedly by the guy who did the shooting. So he made everyone else drop off their weapon "for safety", then he shot and killed a guy later that day. Right, [b]human[/b] accidents don't happen, and the Arlington incident was definately the shooters fault. He violated the most important safety rule by allowing live weapons/ammunition into the training area. Maybe he thought the rules didn't apply to him, or maybe he just simply forgot. Either way, all of the blame lies on him. There's just no way to explain it away, he f*cked up and a fellow officer died for it. But like I said earlier, these types of things should be expected. Play with guns enough in tactical situations with multiple actors and eventually someone somewhere is going to screw up. The odds are against people [b]not[/b] getting killed.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 3:32:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 5:11:40 PM EDT
The unjust part is that if this were a civilian screw up the police would be firing up the stove and putting on a pan of hot grease to fry the poor civilian. As with all police screw ups....nothing, I repeat nothing will happen to the perpetrator. The law is only used against the citizen....agents of the state walk free regardless. Lack of equal application of the law is now the order of the day in America.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 5:17:51 PM EDT
I have participated in numerous training exercises over the years. Strict adherence to the safety protocol was always observed. All duty weapons, holsters and ammo were secured off site. Training weapons were clearly marked and checked for nonfunctioning status by at least two officers. All pockets were turned inside out and officers were wanded with metal detectors. The lesson to be learned here is a one second lapse in safety regulations can affect you the rest of your life. It doesn’t matter if you’re on the range, at home, in your car etc. Be safe.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 5:20:51 PM EDT
The law is only used against the citizen....agents of the state walk free regardless...
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I thought LEOs were citizens??
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 7:25:27 PM EDT
I knew a training officer who shot a participant in a boarding excercise. His mistake-not checking his weapon every time he picked it up, instead of assuming it was the way he left it. He only used blanks in it and stored it that way. Side note, blanks will kill also if fired against a persons body... Anyway, turns out that a co-worker took it to the range without asking (or telling), returned it loaded with live ammo. and then lied about his alibi. He told me about firing his weapon several times, thinking this guys a good actor, later having to face the question from a hospital bed, "why'd you shoot me? " Sitting in a cell, crying, wondering if his life was over, until the a-holes wife unknowingly burned his alibi to investigators. i don't think commentary is needed, but the lesson here would be, never assume. You have to guard against everyone's mistakes, and things that happen that you may not be aware of.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 7:47:09 PM EDT
Why do people continue this fantasy that leos are "citizens"? People exercising ordinary liberty and rights are citizens. People having extraordinary regard, whether through notoriety or wealth or privilege granted as a form of compensation for service or brotherhood are....."The Beautiful People".
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 9:04:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Axel: returned it loaded with live ammo. and then lied about his alibi. He told me about firing his weapon several times, thinking this guys a good actor.
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I have a question how can a weapon that is suposed to fire blanks fire a live round except of course for revolvers. And how can anyone fire a live round and think they only fired a blank.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 9:52:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2001 9:53:54 PM EDT by Boland]
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 10:23:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sniper_762x51:
Originally Posted By Axel: returned it loaded with live ammo. and then lied about his alibi. He told me about firing his weapon several times, thinking this guys a good actor.
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I have a question how can a weapon that is suposed to fire blanks fire a live round except of course for revolvers. And how can anyone fire a live round and think they only fired a blank.
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Telling it like I heard it. I understood it to be a standard duty weapon with blanks. Long before you guys edumacated me.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 11:51:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2001 11:54:30 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By Sniper_762x51:
Originally Posted By Axel: returned it loaded with live ammo. and then lied about his alibi. He told me about firing his weapon several times, thinking this guys a good actor.
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I have a question how can a weapon that is suposed to fire blanks fire a live round except of course for revolvers. And how can anyone fire a live round and think they only fired a blank.
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When I was in the Army. My asst. squad leader was killed in a training exercise by another NCO. He had put a mag with live rounds in his M-16A1 while using MILES gear. He fired once and blew the blank adapter off, another NCO next to him pointed out he didn't have a blank adapter. So he got another, and blew that on off. He couldn't figure out why the weapon would cycle w/o a blank adapter, and kept firing. A more senior NCO that wasn't directly involved in the training thought he heard bullets going by so he called a ceasefire. He looked along the probable path of the bullets, found my asst. squad leader, with a small hole in his forehead and a large hole in the back of his head, still alive. He bled out rather quickly. The Capt. in charge had decided that since we "needed" to provide security, and he wanted to use the MILES gear for training, he would use the same people for security and training. He had them issued 30 round with live rounds, and 20 mags with blanks. He also forbid any extra security measures, like taping over the feed lips of the live mags so that if one was inserted by accident it wouldn't feed. He said that if we were actually attacked it would take too much time to get the tape off the mags.......... No one was punished for this. The Capt. was re-assigned to a better job. The NCO that did the shooting was court martialed and acquited. I have no idea what happened in Providence, but negligent discharges that result in injury or death are gruesome.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 7:32:35 AM EDT
hey guys, lets do some dry run training, ya know, it will just be a walkthrough, but lets load out weapons so if someone fucks up someone else gets to die, yah, thats the ticket.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 9:41:09 AM EDT
Providence Journal reported today that the weapon in question was brought to the training scene AFTER all other weapons had been checked and cleared. It was a scoped precision rifle straight from the PD Armory. Some people are just DWC (Dangerous With Crayons)
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 10:54:17 AM EDT
Sounds like there was a failure on the part of the officer in charge, or his superiors. Not enough trainers, or too many trainees for a proper span of control. Whatever happened was another tragic example of failure of following the rules of basic firearm safety. Sad day for the PPD.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 11:54:47 AM EDT
New York Times, Washington Post headline "SWAT SWATS SWATT" Article: "SWATT SWATTING SWATT" is further proof of the need to immediately confiscate all firearms in civilian hands...... ---------------------------------------------- From the "Sarah Brady Foundation of "Smokers Unanimous"..... Had these officers been smoking perhaps one or more might have contracted cancer and a life might have been saved. The very fact that no officers were smoking proves the need to immediately confiscate all firearms in civilian hands...... [smoke]
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 1:02:15 PM EDT
Los Angeles Times: Rhode Island Police Mourn Colleague [url]http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-training-death1228dec28.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnation%2Dheadlines[/url] Rhode Island Police Mourn Colleague By RICHARD LEWIS Associated Press Writer December 28 2001, 10:37 AM PST EAST PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- Police officers are mourning a 16-year veteran who was shot and killed during a training exercise that was not supposed to include live ammunition. Capt. Alister McGregor, 43, was shot Thursday by a fellow officer with a rifle as a 12-member SWAT team staged a mock hostage situation on a school bus, Police Chief Gary Dias said. "It's just a tragic accident that should've never happened," Dias said. McGregor, a father of five, was a 16-year veteran of the East Providence police force who had recently been promoted to captain. He was commander of the SWAT team and had organized the training exercise that led to his death, Dias said. His wife, Brooke, is a detective on the police department. "Everyone is just emotionally drained right now," Dias said. "He was a good person, and this is going to be difficult for a lot of people." Dias said police haven't determined why live ammunition was being used but said a gun may have been introduced into the drill after the other weapons had been checked. The state police and the attorney general's office were investigating, as is routine, according to Deputy Attorney General Jerry Coyne. Police were not releasing the name of the officer who shot McGregor. Dias said he is a five-year veteran who previously served in the military. He was so distraught over the shooting that he had to be sedated and hospitalized, Dias said. He was later released. "I can't even imagine the feelings that he's experiencing," the chief said. A similar accident occurred June 7 in Arlington, Texas, when police Cpl. Joseph Cushman was accidentally shot to death by a fellow SWAT officer during a training session at a junior high school. Copyright 2001 Associated Press
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 2:41:02 PM EDT
[b]"He said the shooting occurred as a group of 12 officers was taking part in a scenario geared to handling the taking of student hostages aboard a school bus.[/b]" Didn't the last accidental shooting also occur during a school-related exercise? We may have reached the point where more officers are killed in [i]training[/i] for Columbine-type incidents than students actually [i]being[/i] in them.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 3:16:55 PM EDT
Yes the incident in Arlington did happen at a school, after hours. And these aren't the only cases I've read about. The military has thousands of people training with weapons every day with very few accidents. Maybe the police trainers need better training themselves. I know two police trainers that I wouldn't even go to the range with even for some informal practice.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 5:25:29 PM EDT
Maybe the JBT's will just kill each other off, saving us the trouble. [sniper]
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 6:00:29 PM EDT
In all seriousness, maybe it's time to put an end to all this post-Columbine hysteria. It has been reported that children are more likely to be killed at school by [b]lightning[/b] than guns or other weapons. Even so, all but the smallest American towns now have SWAT teams that routinely train for this scenario. Small wonder that training accidents are in the news so often. At the risk of sounding cynical, Columbine has joined the National War On Drugs as the primary justification for funding SWAT teams in many police departments. After all, there are only so many meth labs you can raid with the department's armored car — other "threats" must be discovered or invented!
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 6:08:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 6:17:20 PM EDT
[Imbroglio]If these [b]highly trained[/b] police officers can't be trusted with the safe use of firearms, then neither can the general public. [/Imbroglio]
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 6:38:23 PM EDT
An unfortunate incident. I hope they take this accident apart, and anylize the hell out of it, and other incidents similiar to it. Not to be funny, but they should be given wooden guns to train with. A triple redundancy standardization is neccesary for absolute safety. Waterdog
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 12:48:55 PM EDT
We don't need any more Mall Ninja wannabes on SWAT teams, and if someone is stupid enough to train with live ammo, they might just be my vote for the next Darwin award. :)
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 1:02:15 PM EDT
Safety, boys. I simply *never* point a weapon at anyone I don't want to kill. I don't care if it is loaded with blanks, live ammo, or "empty". Then I never have to worry 'bout killing my playmates.
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 2:12:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BSME: We don't need any more Mall Ninja wannabes on SWAT teams, and if someone is stupid enough to train with live ammo, they might just be my vote for the next Darwin award. :)
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This only applies if they're pretending to commit suicide. Otherwise, they are always pointing that weapon at someone else... very sad!
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 2:49:13 PM EDT
Tisk tisk, with all the tinfoil hat wearers here on this board you would expect that someone at least guess the truth... There are no such thing as firearms accidents. Not in the civilian world, and certainly not in the law enforcement community... they are coverups for murder or manslaughter or to defraud insurance companies who dont pay for suicides. This guy did something to offend someone else on the force and so they arranged him to be offed...
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