[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 500 Phantom (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/15/2008 5:39:18 PM EDT
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So a thread about shooting Terminators got me thinking about a 50 cal bullet loaded into a necked up 308 or similar sized case for use in an AR15 or maybe AR10, similar to 338 Spectre, but sure enough Google has shown me that there is already such a round–– 500 Phantom.
Further googling has shown that there really hasn't been much activity (at least nothing I could find) since 2006 or so. Anyone know anything about this round? |
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50 Beowulf - been around for a while.
http://www.50beowulf.com/ I have an AR pistol chambered for it with an 11 inch barrel. Lots of fun to shoot. Lem |
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doesn't look promising.
For that size of a bullet, that's a pointless amount of muzzle energy |
The 500 phantom seats the bullets for the 50BMG (.510). The Beo seats pistol bullets (.500). Both are fun, but the phantom loads are wicked....(.308 on left for comparison)
pic from Feisty Rooster I have not yet found a place to try the surplus APIT load.... That said, you can not buy any factory loads....and w/o the project sponsor and a source of brass there won't be any more. Marty does lots of great stuff: Teppo Jutsu .458 socom is on my list at some point..... |
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For that size of a bullet, that's a pointless amount of muzzle energy Could you explain what this means, exactly? Well, according to the linked ballistic data, 500 Phantom produces between 1300-1800 ft/lbs of muzzle energy with a .510 diameter M8 API bullet. Slightly better with some different bullets, but nothing above 4500. Not something you want to be hit with, but by comparison, 5.56x45mm NATO produces 1300 ft/lbs in a lighter, faster, and longer range cartridge. 50BMG produces 13,000-15,000 ft/lbs. No data to show for it, but I'm willing to bet the dropoff in energy at 100yds would be staggering with the 500 Phantom. |
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For that size of a bullet, that's a pointless amount of muzzle energy Could you explain what this means, exactly? Well, according to the linked ballistic data, 500 Phantom produces between 1300-1800 ft/lbs of muzzle energy with a .510 diameter M8 API bullet. Slightly better with some different bullets, but nothing above 4500. Not something you want to be hit with, but by comparison, 5.56x45mm NATO produces 1300 ft/lbs in a lighter, faster, and longer range cartridge. 50BMG produces 13,000-15,000 ft/lbs. No data to show for it, but I'm willing to bet the dropoff in energy at 100yds would be staggering with the 500 Phantom. Large bullets at low velocity keep their energy fairly well. A subsonic 500 Phantom load could maintain more than 85% of it's muzzle velocity at 1000 yards. |
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For that size of a bullet, that's a pointless amount of muzzle energy Could you explain what this means, exactly? Well, according to the linked ballistic data, 500 Phantom produces between 1300-1800 ft/lbs of muzzle energy with a .510 diameter M8 API bullet. Slightly better with some different bullets, but nothing above 4500. Not something you want to be hit with, but by comparison, 5.56x45mm NATO produces 1300 ft/lbs in a lighter, faster, and longer range cartridge. 50BMG produces 13,000-15,000 ft/lbs. No data to show for it, but I'm willing to bet the dropoff in energy at 100yds would be staggering with the 500 Phantom. Bullet drop would be substantial at 100 yards, but I bet it would lose far less energy, at least % wise than a .223 
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For that size of a bullet, that's a pointless amount of muzzle energy Could you explain what this means, exactly? Well, according to the linked ballistic data, 500 Phantom produces between 1300-1800 ft/lbs of muzzle energy with a .510 diameter M8 API bullet. Slightly better with some different bullets, but nothing above 4500. Not something you want to be hit with, but by comparison, 5.56x45mm NATO produces 1300 ft/lbs in a lighter, faster, and longer range cartridge. 50BMG produces 13,000-15,000 ft/lbs. No data to show for it, but I'm willing to bet the dropoff in energy at 100yds would be staggering with the 500 Phantom. If I'm not mistaken, it's intended use is for subsonic loads in a suppressed firearm, so you need to compare it to rounds like the 147gr 9mm, 230gr .45acp, and 220gr 300Whisper. As for energy dropoff, subsonic loads don't have to deal with supersonic drag, so they don't bleed off velocity anywhere near as quickly as supersonic loads. Use an aerodynamic projectile similar in shape to a .308 FMJBT, and bullet drop will be your main limitation on range. ETA: A 165gr .308 Sierra Game King boat tail hollow point with a muzzle velocity of 1,068fps will still be moving at 1,007fps at 100 yards, according to the ballistics software. At 200 yards, it should be about 958fps. |
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Bullet drop would be substantial at 100 yards, but I bet it would lose far less energy, at least % wise than a .223 Been a while since I looked at the numbers, but I think the ballisitics software indicated my subsonic loads with .308 projectiles would be a little over a foot low at 250 yards with a 100 yard zero. With the right projectile, I don't see why the 500 Phantom wouldn't have a similar drop. ETA: My memory was fuzzier than I thought. I dug out one of the printouts and a 100 yard zero is just under a foot low at 150 yards. By 200 yards, it's 31 inches low. The highest point between the muzzle and 100 yards is about 2 and 3/4 inches high. |
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Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy (yds) (in) (moa) (in) (moa) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) 0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 1000.7 0.896 1667.3 25 1.3 4.9 0.0 0.1 995.7 0.892 1650.7 50 1.9 3.5 0.1 0.3 990.8 0.887 1634.5 75 0.2 0.3 0.3 0.4 986.0 0.883 1618.8 100 -3.6 -3.5 0.5 0.5 981.3 0.879 1603.5 125 -9.8 -7.5 0.8 0.6 976.7 0.875 1588.5 150 -18.2 -11.6 1.2 0.7 972.2 0.871 1573.9 175 -28.8 -15.7 1.6 0.9 967.8 0.867 1559.6 200 -41.9 -20.0 2.1 1.0 963.5 0.863 1545.6 225 -57.2 -24.3 2.6 1.1 959.2 0.859 1532.0 250 -74.9 -28.6 3.2 1.2 955.0 0.855 1518.7 275 -95.0 -33.0 3.9 1.3 950.9 0.852 1505.6 300 -117.5 -37.4 4.6 1.5 946.9 0.848 1492.8 325 -142.4 -41.9 5.4 1.6 942.9 0.845 1480.3 350 -169.8 -46.3 6.2 1.7 939.0 0.841 1468.1 375 -199.6 -50.8 7.1 1.8 935.1 0.838 1456.1 400 -232.0 -55.4 8.1 1.9 931.3 0.834 1444.3 425 -266.8 -59.9 9.1 2.0 927.6 0.831 1432.7 450 -304.1 -64.5 10.2 2.2 923.9 0.828 1421.4 475 -344.0 -69.2 11.3 2.3 920.3 0.824 1410.3 500 -386.5 -73.8 12.5 2.4 916.8 0.821 1399.4 |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: For that size of a bullet, that's a pointless amount of muzzle energy Could you explain what this means, exactly? Well, according to the linked ballistic data, 500 Phantom produces between 1300-1800 ft/lbs of muzzle energy with a .510 diameter M8 API bullet. Slightly better with some different bullets, but nothing above 4500. Not something you want to be hit with, but by comparison, 5.56x45mm NATO produces 1300 ft/lbs in a lighter, faster, and longer range cartridge. 50BMG produces 13,000-15,000 ft/lbs. No data to show for it, but I'm willing to bet the dropoff in energy at 100yds would be staggering with the 500 Phantom. If I'm not mistaken, it's intended use is for subsonic loads in a suppressed firearm, so you need to compare it to rounds like the 147gr 9mm, 230gr .45acp, and 220gr 300Whisper. As for energy dropoff, subsonic loads don't have to deal with supersonic drag, so they don't bleed off velocity anywhere near as quickly as supersonic loads. Use an aerodynamic projectile similar in shape to a .308 FMJBT, and bullet drop will be your main limitation on range. ETA: A 165gr .308 Sierra Game King boat tail hollow point with a muzzle velocity of 1,068fps will still be moving at 1,007fps at 100 yards, according to the ballistics software. At 200 yards, it should be about 958fps. This. The round is, like the .300 Whisper, built to serve a purpose. I'm quite certain that it is more than adequate for that purpose. That's a lot of thump for a very quiet weapon. |
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You are right. I can go out and buy a box of 50 Beowulf, and load it in a stock AR magazine - then go enjoy shooting. Plenty of energy, off the shelf ammo. The phantom is as practical as a bowling ball mortar. Ammo? Semi or full auto operation? Uh huh. If you want to send a 50 BMG bullet downrange... use a BMG. Lem Lem |
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Quoted: You are right. I can go out and buy a box of 50 Beowulf, and load it in a stock AR magazine - then go enjoy shooting. Plenty of energy, off the shelf ammo. The phantom is as practical as a bowling ball mortar. Ammo? Semi or full auto operation? Uh huh. If you want to send a 50 BMG bullet downrange... use a BMG. Lem Lem  Try it on a suppressed rifle and see which one functions best at 100 yards while remaing quiet. I swear some people can't see past the end of their nose. |
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For that size of a bullet, that's a pointless amount of muzzle energy Could you explain what this means, exactly? Well, according to the linked ballistic data, 500 Phantom produces between 1300-1800 ft/lbs of muzzle energy with a .510 diameter M8 API bullet. Slightly better with some different bullets, but nothing above 4500. Not something you want to be hit with, but by comparison, 5.56x45mm NATO produces 1300 ft/lbs in a lighter, faster, and longer range cartridge. 50BMG produces 13,000-15,000 ft/lbs. No data to show for it, but I'm willing to bet the dropoff in energy at 100yds would be staggering with the 500 Phantom. If I'm not mistaken, it's intended use is for subsonic loads in a suppressed firearm, so you need to compare it to rounds like the 147gr 9mm, 230gr .45acp, and 220gr 300Whisper. As for energy dropoff, subsonic loads don't have to deal with supersonic drag, so they don't bleed off velocity anywhere near as quickly as supersonic loads. Use an aerodynamic projectile similar in shape to a .308 FMJBT, and bullet drop will be your main limitation on range. ETA: A 165gr .308 Sierra Game King boat tail hollow point with a muzzle velocity of 1,068fps will still be moving at 1,007fps at 100 yards, according to the ballistics software. At 200 yards, it should be about 958fps. This. The round is, like the .300 Whisper, built to serve a purpose. I'm quite certain that it is more than adequate for that purpose. That's a lot of thump for a very quiet weapon. Exactly, it's a purpose made cartridge for making big holes very quietly. Yes it will be hard to lob bullets far like a BMG but that's not what it's made for. There are plenty of special purpose, heavy for caliber subsonic boomers made for suppressed use (300 Whisper, 338 Spectre, 510 Whisper) |
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A subsonic 500 Phantom load could maintain more than 85% of it's muzzle velocity at 1000 yards. Did you mean 100 yards 
Marty lists 1123 as muzzle velocity with a 750 amax. That would mean it is still doing 900 fps at a thousand. That just doesnt sound right to me |
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A subsonic 500 Phantom load could maintain more than 85% of it's muzzle velocity at 1000 yards. Did you mean 100 yards
Marty lists 1123 as muzzle velocity with a 750 amax. That would mean it is still doing 900 fps at a thousand. That just doesnt sound right to me especially not with the 386 foot drop at 500 yards as posted above. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A subsonic 500 Phantom load could maintain more than 85% of it's muzzle velocity at 1000 yards. Did you mean 100 yards Marty lists 1123 as muzzle velocity with a 750 amax. That would mean it is still doing 900 fps at a thousand. That just doesnt sound right to me especially not with the 386 foot drop at 500 yards as posted above. You fly planes and you don't know the difference between feet and inches? 
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A subsonic 500 Phantom load could maintain more than 85% of it's muzzle velocity at 1000 yards. Did you mean 100 yards
Marty lists 1123 as muzzle velocity with a 750 amax. That would mean it is still doing 900 fps at a thousand. That just doesnt sound right to me especially not with the 386 foot drop at 500 yards as posted above. You fly planes and you don't know the difference between feet and inches? oops... misread. 386 INCH drop. Still pretty damn significant |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'd like to see load data for that. Its got to be compressed. It sort of reminds me of a dummy round I made for fun back in the day, a .50bmg bullet in a 50AE case. i linked to a page with load data. pretty low powder charge. No kidding. With the 600+ grain bullets, it's a powder charge of nearly the same weight and type as a .44 Mag powder charge. |
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A subsonic 500 Phantom load could maintain more than 85% of it's muzzle velocity at 1000 yards. Did you mean 100 yards
Marty lists 1123 as muzzle velocity with a 750 amax. That would mean it is still doing 900 fps at a thousand. That just doesnt sound right to me especially not with the 386 foot drop at 500 yards as posted above. Retained velocity has little to do with the trajectory of bullets launched at subsonic velocity. Muzzle velocity is the primary factor in trajectories, lacking that you will never shoot “flat” . You could have 100% retained velocity in a subsonic bullet and you’d still get a rainbow trajectory. Drop is the result of gravity over the time of flight. Low velocity means more time for gravity to act on the bullet between any two points vs. a faster projectile. |
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A subsonic 500 Phantom load could maintain more than 85% of it's muzzle velocity at 1000 yards. Did you mean 100 yards
Marty lists 1123 as muzzle velocity with a 750 amax. That would mean it is still doing 900 fps at a thousand. That just doesnt sound right to me especially not with the 386 foot drop at 500 yards as posted above. Retained velocity has little to do with the trajectory of bullets launched at subsonic velocity. Muzzle velocity is the primary factor in trajectories, lacking that you will never shoot “flat” . You could have 100% retained velocity in a subsonic bullet and you’d still get a rainbow trajectory. Drop is the result of gravity over the time of flight. Low velocity means more time for gravity to act on the bullet between any two points vs. a faster projectile. So you are saying it could retain 85% of its velocity at 1000 yards |
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A subsonic 500 Phantom load could maintain more than 85% of it's muzzle velocity at 1000 yards. Did you mean 100 yards
Marty lists 1123 as muzzle velocity with a 750 amax. That would mean it is still doing 900 fps at a thousand. That just doesnt sound right to me especially not with the 386 foot drop at 500 yards as posted above. Retained velocity has little to do with the trajectory of bullets launched at subsonic velocity. Muzzle velocity is the primary factor in trajectories, lacking that you will never shoot “flat” . You could have 100% retained velocity in a subsonic bullet and you’d still get a rainbow trajectory. Drop is the result of gravity over the time of flight. Low velocity means more time for gravity to act on the bullet between any two points vs. a faster projectile. So you are saying it could retain 85% of its velocity at 1000 yards I think it's possible, but it is a little hard say for absolutely certain without testing it. Bullet reach their peak BC at around 1000 fps, but once they drop below the speed of sound the BC changes rapidly. See the graph from Sierra of their 300 grain .338 SMK below: 
The blue line is the speed of sound, the green line is 1000fps. The Red line in the BC as are the numbers at the left. |
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A subsonic 500 Phantom load could maintain more than 85% of it's muzzle velocity at 1000 yards. Did you mean 100 yards
Marty lists 1123 as muzzle velocity with a 750 amax. That would mean it is still doing 900 fps at a thousand. That just doesnt sound right to me especially not with the 386 foot drop at 500 yards as posted above. You fly planes and you don't know the difference between feet and inches? oops... misread. 386 INCH drop. Still pretty damn significant After you retire from the AF, please let us know who you fly for commercially so I can avoid that airline like the motherfucking plague!!! |
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A subsonic 500 Phantom load could maintain more than 85% of it's muzzle velocity at 1000 yards. Did you mean 100 yards
Marty lists 1123 as muzzle velocity with a 750 amax. That would mean it is still doing 900 fps at a thousand. That just doesnt sound right to me especially not with the 386 foot drop at 500 yards as posted above. You fly planes and you don't know the difference between feet and inches? oops... misread. 386 INCH drop. Still pretty damn significant After you retire from the AF, please let us know who you fly for commercially so I can avoid that airline like the motherfucking plague!!! It's not that unusual for pilots to have problems with confusing little details like that. In the past, there has been a local problem with airliners having to be told that they were on approach to the wrong airport (an old, former military base on the other side of the lake). |
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For that size of a bullet, that's a pointless amount of muzzle energy Could you explain what this means, exactly? Well, according to the linked ballistic data, 500 Phantom produces between 1300-1800 ft/lbs of muzzle energy with a .510 diameter M8 API bullet. Slightly better with some different bullets, but nothing above 4500. Not something you want to be hit with, but by comparison, 5.56x45mm NATO produces 1300 ft/lbs in a lighter, faster, and longer range cartridge. 50BMG produces 13,000-15,000 ft/lbs. No data to show for it, but I'm willing to bet the dropoff in energy at 100yds would be staggering with the 500 Phantom. Large bullets at low velocity keep their energy fairly well. A subsonic 500 Phantom load could maintain more than 85% of it's muzzle velocity at 1000 yards. Talk about a rainbow trajectory. What would be the drop at 1000 yards? |
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Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift 0 695 -0.5 0 0 804 0 100 694 0 36.99 0.43 802 0 200 692 -71.5 145.98 0.87 798 0 300 691 -214.58 326.54 1.3 795 0 400 690 -428.79 578.24 1.74 793 0 500 688 -713.69 900.63 2.17 788 0 600 687 -1068.83 1293.26 2.61 786 0 700 686 -1493.75 1755.67 3.04 784 0 800 685 -1988.01 2287.42 3.48 781 0 900 683 -2551.13 2888.02 3.92 777 0 1000 682 -3182.64 3557.02 4.36 775 0 Drop of 296 feet at 1000 yard. Thats' the 695 fps load. Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift 0 1123 -0.5 0 0 2100 0 100 1097 0 14.61 0.27 2004 0 200 1073 -28.46 58.17 0.55 1917 0 300 1052 -87.04 131.86 0.83 1843 0 400 1033 -176.84 236.76 1.12 1777 0 500 1016 -298.87 373.9 1.41 1719 0 600 1000 -454.12 544.25 1.71 1665 0 700 985 -643.45 748.69 2.01 1616 0 800 972 -867.74 988.08 2.32 1573 0 900 960 -1127.74 1263.19 2.63 1535 0 1000 949 -1424.2 1574.75 2.94 1500 0 Drop of 131 feet at 1000 yards, 1123 fps load. |
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Drop of 131 feet at 1000 yards, 1123 fps load. I don't know if you've ever compared calculated tables to real life, but using a G1 BC to model a subsonic VLD bullet isn't going to be particularly accurate. I'd guess though that you'd could have more than 400 yards of fairly useful trajectory maybe up to 700 yards. |