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Posted: 12/5/2001 12:28:18 PM EDT
We have all talked about it, picked our favorite weapon for it, bought gear and mags 'just in case', and wondered how it would happen while praying (hoping) it never does. Describe the factors that you think will need to be in place for the SHTF and the way it will go down. Here is mine..... TAXES. Once the majority of the Amerocan people are being taxed over 50% with no appreciable 'return' for that level of theft, a grass-roots movement will start as non-violent. The resolution of this issue will be in the hands of our federal government, they will push it over the edge, becoming very violent in areas. If this happens, look to the western states (except southern California) to lead the charge in a popular uprising. The first revolution was fought over taxes....the next will be also. Funny thing....I'm not affiliated with any of the militia's and I think the Federal Government should play a role in our lives, just not such a large one.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 12:29:40 PM EDT
shhhhh! Stop it. Silly person.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 12:39:50 PM EDT
When my wife finds out I just bought 3 new C3's [0:)]
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 12:39:55 PM EDT
The government will always protect us. I trust it to make all the right choices.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 1:01:52 PM EDT
wiggy762- Are you aware of how many people do not pay ANY state or federal income taxes? All they pay is sales tax, social insecurity, unemployment witholding etc. and the demoncraps want to make them not subject to even those. And will probably succeed. My point is, very shortly only a minority of the population will be paying income taxes. I really can't see that minority getting any support from the majority who just love getting other peoples money handed to them. So, no tax revolt IMHO. What I would really love to see is an "Atlas Shrugged" type revolt where the most productive and innovative people just say screw you to the leeches and sheep and just shut down their operations and quit producing.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 1:22:06 PM EDT
Gee I thought it already did hit the fan.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 1:26:56 PM EDT
This is why I love this site...so many ideas. The 'atlas shrugged principle', now that is a great idea. To any ATF types lurking, this is a hypothetical question and answer, not a meeting, recruitment or anything of the like!
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 1:27:36 PM EDT
Taxes or Multiculturalism
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 1:53:10 PM EDT
Taxes AND States rights. It will be a "civil" war (yeah, like any war is civil [:)]) Really, I think that a bunch of states are going to wind up with a lot of "conservative" people, get tired of taxes and attempt to secede from the union. [b]I[/b] certainly don't want to support the PRK anymore (sorry any of you that live there - it's time to get out)
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 1:54:31 PM EDT
Just a note, your taxes don't really pay for the operation of the government and we got along for half of our country's existance without any direct taxes of any kind. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 1:55:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 1:59:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dale007: Multiculturalism
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Is that your way of saying, race war?
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 2:09:54 PM EDT
The Democratic Party. They will continue to push socialist programs until we (the USA) colapse like Russia did. Socializm / Communism, not much of a difference from what I have read over the years. Sorry 'Crats, had to say it.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 2:12:41 PM EDT
depends are we talking total goverment collapse or a massive riot/nationial disater type shtf?
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 2:23:58 PM EDT
It'll start right here. First, some dude will set up a website devoted to our favorite rifle. Many will join, and most will abide by the informal codes of conduct. Some will push the limits, and formal rules will be outlined- feathers will be ruffled, whining is heard well into the night. But all will continue as before, with tension and resentment building. One day, naked women will appear. It starts innocently enough, just a little guy fun. Soon it grows into a rollicking porn fest, which quickly gains the attention of those in charge. Attempts to regulate the posting of the pics fail, forcing a complete shut down of all "nekkid wimmin" pics privileges. More feathers are ruffled, egos are bruised, and teeth-gnashing, wailing, puffing-up follows. Some leave in huff, others are shut out. The miffed and isolated ones join together, quietly muttering to themselves at first, but quickly banding together in a storm of emails. Plans are laid, stockpiles are stockpiled, trenches are dug. The attacks begin. The local police and the FBI are caught unawares, focusing all their energy on the external threats. Battles rage in the streets... or perhaps just from behind keyboards, depending on how much work it is. Feelings are hurt, beers are consumed in anger, black rifles are fondled in the privacy of garages and rec rooms, a quiet, smoldering rage building, until they fall asleep alone. I'm sorry, what was the question?
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 4:43:17 PM EDT
When it's just too darn hot to sit on the toilet, and you need something to cool your rear end...
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 7:18:43 PM EDT
It's not. Or maybe, it already has. Depends on how one looks at it. Part of the problem we RKBA types have is this mental fantasy of when "The Time" comes when "They" finally decide to come for our guns, or the government gets so intrusive and regulatory that the common person finally says "Enough!" and some sort of revolution occurs, with the Righteous fighting some sort of guerilla conflict against some occupying force (our own troops, or "furriners"). The fact of the matter is: THAT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN! Every one of you (and that includes me to some extent) who's got these mental images of some day arriving whereupon he wakes up, looks out the window, sees the confiscation squads going door to door collecting everyone's weapons, grabs his bugout bag, favored child, trusty LEGP, maybe the spouse, and heads for the hills to begin some sort of protracted yet victorious in the end insurgency campaign is living in a fantasy land It simply isn't going to happen that way. It would never work to attempt mass/total confiscation, and those who are conspiring to turn this once (and still relatively) great country into one more cesspool for the ages know it. Everytime I hear someone mention about how when "They" finally come for the guns revolution is going to break out, I get sad. "They" are already coming and have taken guns. "They" have already confiscated and banned guns in California, New York, Chicago, and I have no idea where else. And the funny thing is, when "They" come up with another scheme for confiscating more guns in these frontlines in the war for our rights, 90% of the people on this board pipe up with either "Get the hell out of that state!" or "I'm getting the hell out of this state!" (depending on their relative location). Incrementalism is the way of these people. It is their tool in eroding our national sovereignty, and it is the tool in eroding our personal sovereignty. They know that we'd never submit to giving up all weapons, but by marginalizing and demonizing select groups of weapons and weapon owners, they're accomplishing their goal, just slower than they'd desire. First it was automatic weapons and sawed off shotguns. Now they're moving in on .50 cal rifles. In states such as PRK and Taxachusetts it is only a matter of time(and a depressingly small one probably) before the push for the total ban on all handguns and semiautomatic rifles becomes viable. I've read many references on this board about the consensus about how the average deer hunter type has in many cases already been conditioned to view "assault weapons" as something evil. When they outlaw rifles over .35 caliber, when they outlaw handguns, when they outlaw all repeating rifles, we will consent, as we have done. All of the major urban/power centers of the country are becoming wondrous gunfree zones as we sit around, bitching, yet waiting for The Right Time when They Finally Go Too Far. The fight for the RKBA is most likely (probably closer to most certainly) not going to degenerate into some sort of revolutionary armed struggle. (And if it did, just ask the Taliban how easy it is to stand up to a modern military force.) The two factors the anti's have going for them the most are: (continued)
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 7:21:22 PM EDT
The fact that the modern American (including many of us on this board, as evidenced by the numbers of people fleeing or advocating the fleeing of the confiscation zones) is so enamored of our comfortable lifestyles that relatively few are willing to endure significant hardships including the loss of life in order to defend a principle. The second fact(and real doozie) is that, through the simply inspiring job of dumbing-down of the American populace that has been accomplished over the last 50 years, the proportion of people who understand the reason for the RKBA, much less ready to actively defend it, is getting smaller by the year. I defy anyone who reads articles or has heard through firsthand accounts of the caliber of both modern education and modern students to remain opitimistic about our likelihood of retaining what rights we still have, much less regaining lost ones. I'm 23. When people my age and younger comprise the bulk of those living in this country, I supsect most, if not all, of the anti's agenda will be easily or already have been accomplished. I consider myself to be fairly enlightened, was in honors classes throughout primary education, just graduated from a fairly selective seond-tier private university, and yet I am apalled at my lack of critical thinking skills, lack of historical perspective, lack of competent understanding of the way our government functions. I cringe in fear when I think about what goes through the heads of the bulk of people my age and younger. When friends of mine come back from a trip from Europe raving about how great socialism is because healthcare is "free", I can only shake my head, because I find it hard to refute. I've also seen it mentioned here before that the Caliban is ready to wait the 30 or 40 years for the current "assault weapon" owners to die and therefore for their un-grandfatherable (did I just coin a new word?) evil weapons to have to be removed from the state, so one can see how the rest of my scenario would fit in. By the time all guns are finally banned, nobody (or not enough people to matter) will care.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 7:22:21 PM EDT
You are all wrong. Rosie, it will all start with Rosie. A fart, unlike anyone has ever seen before....we're talking Hiroshima....will erupt, by then it'll be too late.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 7:43:27 PM EDT
LongDong - You are wise beyond your years and I agree with every point you made. Effectively we are toast. Within 30 years the game will be over and 99% of the population will cheer.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 7:57:58 PM EDT
I don't see any sort of long term nationwide breakdown of society or any sort of organized revolution ever happening in the forseeable future. The only sort of shit I see hitting the fan is a localized and temporary breakdown due to rioting, natural disaster, plague or terrorist attack. For that reason, I don't attempt to prepare to live the rest of my life in the woods, hunting stray cats for food. I prepare to survive a temporary breakdown of services with possible violence from looters or rioters.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 8:07:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LongDongSilver: Incrementalism is the way of these people. It is their tool in eroding our national sovereignty, and it is the tool in eroding our personal sovereignty. ... The two factors the anti's have going for them the most are: The fact that the modern American (including many of us on this board, as evidenced by the numbers of people fleeing or advocating the fleeing of the confiscation zones) is so enamored of our comfortable lifestyles that relatively few are willing to endure significant hardships including the loss of life in order to defend a principle. The second fact(and real doozie) is that, through the simply inspiring job of dumbing-down of the American populace that has been accomplished over the last 50 years, the proportion of people who understand the reason for the RKBA, much less ready to actively defend it, is getting smaller by the year. ...I am apalled at my lack of critical thinking skills, lack of historical perspective, lack of competent understanding of the way our government functions. I cringe in fear when I think about what goes through the heads of the bulk of people my age and younger. When friends of mine come back from a trip from Europe raving about how great socialism is because healthcare is "free"... By the time all guns are finally banned, nobody (or not enough people to matter) will care.
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LongDong, you hit the nail on the head.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 8:49:50 PM EDT
The S*** will hit the fan for me when the constitution is breached..and make no mistake ..it is being "lawyered down" even as we speak, and with our approval. The most recent problem I've seen is the use of National guard troops not for a specific state emergency..but under a federal mandate to guard borders and airports on a national level. There is very little difference between this and the use of US troops on US soil.The only difference being a legal distinction of them being called up by the state... Some of you are military..some ex military..some feds... All I have to say is.. REMEMBER YOUR OATH...isnt wasnt to uphold the government..but to uphold the constitution. There have been calls for national ID's..Imprisonments without charges..It's not a fun thing...don't let your civil liberties slip. Part of terrorism and what makes it work in a revolution is a crackdown from the state that turns people sympathetic to the terrorists. We're well on that track. In ten years if we don't pay attention there could be troops on the streets and a "may we see your papers please" stop on your way home from work...all for our own "safety".
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 8:58:09 PM EDT
Hay Long Dog, My hat's off to you, wise thoughts for such a young man. Here's some ammo for you. 1. When your returning friends say such stupic things, ask them straight out. IF its so great Why'd you return here? 2. Ask them, do you remember 9-11-01, did you have any thoughts about maybe arming yourself that day? 3. On 9-11-01 do you remember the PA airplane, would you have been one of the people standing up an fighting to save your lives, OR would you have stayed in your seat an hoped someone else would risk their life to save your sorry ass? I think one big reason for so much gun control stuff is our ppultion mostly lives in the cities an don't know about guns. It's funny when you think about it, they need em most!!! JB
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 9:15:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wiggy762: Here is mine..... TAXES. Once the majority of the Amerocan people are being taxed over 50% with no appreciable 'return' for that level of theft, a grass-roots movement will start as non-violent.
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Well, most people pay over 50% in taxes. Lets say on average 30% of your income is taxed Federally, and another 5-10% goes to the state, and every thing you buy has a sales tax (especially gas and tobacco products), you have property taxes on homes and cars (in some states), you also pay capital gains, you also pay city taxes on things like cab fairs and train/bus tickets... shit dude, almost everyone pays over 50% of their income in taxes... Try and figure out what you paid in sales tax alone last year on EVERYTHING you purchased! The founding fathers paid far less in taxes to the King than we pay to our government today. That's a fact... Taxes won't do it, sorry.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 10:50:15 AM EDT
My personal beleif is that the American "sheeple" are too far gone to bring about any type of mass resistance to any unconstitutional law, executive order, or increase in taxes. I used to think that major changes could even be made within the political system. Unfortunately, there is an evil that lurks among many gun owners, conservatives, libertarians, etc... Its called "apathy". Given the nature of my generation plus those growing up now, I see no "light at the end of tunnel". I do not think there will ever be an armed revolt on a mass scale as most Americans care more about Food Stamps, welfare checks, or a government pension. Most Americans will grumble or whine with the passage of illegal laws - few will do more then that. So long as everyone's personal life is unhindered very few people will even talk about it. IMHO, I began losing my rights with the NFA in 1934 - prior to my parents even being born. Then there was the Gun Control Act of 1968. Followed by George Bush Sr. banning the importation of so-called "assault weapons. Then Brady Bill I an II under the Klintonistas. Antigunners are not so insepidly stupid as to order mass confiscation of firearms. Everything will be done piece by piece until nothing is left - just a copy of the Constitution in a library for someone to see of a previous culture. The history of America's gun culture may become just that - a history for high school students to read about. Another antigun law will pass - and again - Americans will bend-over and take it like a slave. Perhaps, I am wrong. Perhaps, the s##t will indeed hit the fan. But so long as generations of Americans remain ignorant on our history - the backbone of American culture - there is little hope long term. Everyone has heard the scenario of the frog boiling in water - as it slowly dies but does not realize its own destiny. America can be turned around but only by a volatile change in the culture itself. If the SHTF, I have my own well-thought out agenda. However, I do not suspect hordes of agitated gun owners to defend their 2nd Amendment rights, fight against taxes, or protest a foreseeable case of martial law. I foresee armchair commandos griping at a minimum, burying a few extra firearms as a maximum. Best case scenario, someone else will be forced into a situation not unlike Randy Weaver. I hope sincerely that I am overly pessimistic -but I cannot put my faith in Republicrats who routinely lie and backstab their voting constituents. Nor do I trust the NRA which seems more interested in compromise then the return of all gun rights to the citizenry. [soapbox]
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 11:29:14 AM EDT
Let's say the internment camps exist. Let's say that FEMA is in fact a 'shadow government." If indeed some calamity (massive natural disaster, WWIII, or worldwide economic collapse) initiates a general roundup of the population, the vast majority of the sheeple will be forcing their way INTO the camps. According to them, 3 hots and a cot are a fair trade for freedom. As to the rest of us, there may be a homeland for the liberty loving ppl somewhere, either in the old Confederacy, or the western states. I can only hope, and pray it is not too violent.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 1:20:34 PM EDT
if youve ever seen the movie series "v" thats what i think it will be like, but from within.. can you see it comeing yet?? i can! we will be a small grass roots organization. that is our fate.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 1:41:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By the_survivalist: if youve ever seen the movie series "v" thats what i think it will be like, but from within.. can you see it comeing yet?? i can! we will be a small grass roots organization. that is our fate.
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So you think it'll be lizard-like aliens masquerading as people that will cause the STHTF?
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 1:42:54 PM EDT
my vote goes for the big meteor strike, happened at least once before you know...[%|]
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 2:27:27 PM EDT
<--- looks into his crystal ball i see many years of reeducation i see the once a year people and the armchair commandos doing jack shit.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 3:18:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CaptainSanity: It's not. Or maybe, it already has. Depends on how one looks at it. Part of the problem we RKBA types have is this mental fantasy of when "The Time" comes when "They" finally decide to come for our guns, or the government gets so intrusive and regulatory that the common person finally says "Enough!" and some sort of revolution occurs, with the Righteous fighting some sort of guerilla conflict against some occupying force (our own troops, or "furriners"). The fact of the matter is: THAT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN! You, sir, have said it. The S will NEVER HTF. No one will come to your door. You'll get a letter telling you to turn in the gun registered as number AW112432. If you don't, you'll get another letter reminding you to turn in no. AW112432 by June 1st or a warrant will be issued for your arrest. Of course, no one will have to come and actually arrest you. It won't be necessary because you'll turn the gun in. You'll turn it in because normal people can't live with a warrant out for their arrest.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 4:00:30 PM EDT
That may define a large majority of gun owners.....but not everyone is going to turn their s$1t in if it comes to that. Some people have values they are willing to stand for - even if someone puts a warrant out for their arrest. Be a f#$@#$ hero?..... not necessarily. But do something. How many illegal laws are passed that infringe on freedom before someone says STOP?! Our founding fathers had guts - why are many of today's gun owners so soft and fragile? No one need mention "What about the sacrifice?". Sacrifice is something modern Americans have no knowledge or comprehension of. Out of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence, many had their homes burned, fortunes lost, were jailed, beaten, etc. Some were imprisoned for extensive periods of time or hanged. The country was founded by declared "enemies of the state". Yes, they were all "fugitives of justice". My ramble here may sound simply like pure idealism. Reality is though if you stand on nothing - you will fall for anything. In the very least, bury your guns for a rainy day. This post isn't directed towards anyone in particular but I hope it flames those who do intend to sit on their A## while their rights go to hell. To quote a liberal, "do it for the children". If not yourself, take some stand that your posterity will know and recognize you as being a man. ________________________________________________ Live Free or Die
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 11:37:49 PM EDT
The S will never HTF, because the Oceania government will always protect you from those who hate and attack your freedoms. Let's roll.
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 12:17:22 AM EDT
Ahhhh...the old SHTF thread rears it's ugly head once again.
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 4:43:58 AM EDT
1. An accumulation of deliberately and systematically placed biotoxins (e.g. fluoridated water) in the environment causes premediatated mutation of American children. These mutations will include, but not be limited to, spikey hair. 2. A deliberate and systematic saturation of the American electronic media with overt and subliminal messages will cause sodomy (e.g. "The Birdcage") and cannibalism (e.g. "Hannibal")to become socially acceptable. 3. Nanotechnology will replace America's pets with exact duplicates that serve as transceivers for electromagnetic mind control waves. This program will begin with cats and then be extended to other companion animals. 4. Civilian disarmament will be accomplished incrementally with the full cooperation of the gun manufacturers themselves. That this is already underway is evident by the fact that American gun manufacturers [b]all[/b] install the Thompson/Center anti-bumpfire trigger module in their products. 5. Oprah Winfrey will be elected President-for-life by a plurality of fat women, homosexuals, recovering alcoholics, and Californians. 6. Bermuda will launch a military invasion of Luxemborg, causing world-wide instability and fear that the conflict will go nuclear. 7. JFK will be assassinated, again, this time during a press conference with President Winfrey who will also be killed. Although the culprits will not be conclusively identified, puzzling evidence will point to a conspiracy of Canadian gangsters and Maoist dentists headquartered in the Hartz Mountains. The suspected reason will be President Winfrey's refusal to provide the Bermudans with critical air support. 8. The US economy will into depression as more and more of the workforce becomes mutated. Guam will be identified as the next center of economic vigor. 9. Stephen King will wipe his ass with a piece of typing paper and it will become a best seller. 10. All these factors will reach critical mass and at exactly 11:45 AM EST on June 14, 2012 the SHTF. You may think I'm crazy, but when the spikey-haired mutants are sodomizing you to death and eating you, you'll wish you had paid more attention to me. Buy guns, buy ammo. Anything else is foolishness.
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 5:05:55 AM EDT
this is what will happen: A terrorist attack the likes of which nobody has seen before will occur in a major metropolitan area. in response, a dim-witted president will emerge a hero for going to war (without a formal declaration) against an invisible enemy which has no borders. laws will be written that may or may not protect the public at or not at the expense of certain freedoms. these laws and conditions will be debated by the finest political thinkers that the internet can muster. those who feel intellectually superior to their peers will scoff and gaffau at the preparedness of those who wish to survive a national calamity. those "intellects" (who probably still live with mommy, thousands of miles away from anything important) will feel it necessary to lower said preparedness by telling everyone that it is over, that nobody will be brave, that the battle for freedom is already lost. the rest will look at their stores of food, water, ammo, etc., and say to themselves, you know? that guy on the web was right! why prepare for a flood, when that guy from texas said everything will be alright, because you see, mommie's house is always safe, and free from danger, they MUST know exactly EVERYTHING there is to know about EVERYTHING! what were we thinking this whole time? so anyway, this war against "ghosts" will take the US all over the world, men and women will be killed, sent home, and public support will wane. the S will HTF when we see our first bus-bomb, our first suicidal maniac in a mall, our first cafe explosion. martial law and cerfews will be enacted in the cities, the economy will continue to falter, banks will lock their doors, everybody except IBM and Microsoft will shed 90% of their work force, and all you "armchair analysts" will have to drop out of school to beg for change in the same streets that you said would never be shat-upon.
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 5:42:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: The S will never HTF, because the Oceania government will always protect you from those who hate and attack your freedoms. Let's roll.
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I got no dog in this fight, but Im backing Eastasia. How will SHTF. EMP. Or Sta-Puff Marshmallow Man. I dunno - I go back and forth. I keep a lighter in my pocket in case of either. Luck Alac Orwell and Murphy were optimists
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 6:18:36 AM EDT
It will start with a slow speed chase. Al Cowling will make a phone call. Yikes, get under the desk! It's already happening!
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 7:20:37 AM EDT
Somewhat off topic, but who here has read "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. I serious wonder how realistic the plot of his book is....and if, in fact, it could happen..........
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