[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Abortion vs Genocide (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/21/2008 3:03:46 AM EDT
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In regards to this thread www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=664550 Ok I realize I am probably starting a shitstorm, but it is a question that has been bugging me. Often times Pro-life critics say that abortion is so terrible because it kills an innocent life with no say in the matter. They want political action to stop it, some have even gone as far as to use violence. Yet many dont think that the US should take an active part in stopping genocides or confronting nations that use child warriors, forced to take drugs, and are often killed or at least screwed up for life. The hard line conservatives are usually the ones protesting abortions, yet in my experience, it is the ultra left that are calling for actions to stop genocides. So my question is, how is it that Pro-life people decide what is and isnt an innocent life. Is an unborn child anymore or less innocent than a 4 year old Somalian child, who is given heroine and an AK47? To clarify my stance on abortion, I think that a persons choices should not be regulated by the gov. Those choices define who a person is. I try not to judge as I know I dont like to be judged. ETA: Please keep it civil. I know that its a heated debate but I dont want to see anyone get locked or banned over it. |
My answer is that I am to make sure my own house is in order first. Somalia is not my home. The US is. Once we stop murdering kids in our own location then maybe we can worry about what other countries are doing. |
But is it fair to a child to force its parents into giving birth when they cant provide for it? Our adoption system is not a great environment for children, and all to often we hear about stories of parents neglegting their kids. Is it fair for a child to be born into a life where he doesnt stand a chance? |
It is more fair than to crack open his skull, suck out his brains, chop up his body, and toss him in the garbage. If you or your partner is pregnant, step up. You might actually have to work more than 40 hours a week. You might actually have to stop whoring it up at the clubs. You might actually have to turn the xbox off after an hour or two a week. In other words, you might actually have to behave like a responsible adult. The rewards outweigh the sacrifice if you have the honor to do what is right. |
My girlfriend happens to be one of those children, almost aborted because she wouldn't have grown up in a "good environment". Well, she wasn't aborted, and she didn't get a good environment. Her early life sucked, and she had abusive guardians all the way to until the age of 16. Today she is the most vibrant, full of life, attractive and self-assured female you will ever see. The thought of her life being snuffed out before it even started is enough to make me pro-life, inspite of my libertine leanings. The "bad environment" argument is flawed in that it relies on the nurture side of nature vs. nurture. Just because someone may grow up in bad circumstances doesn't make their life unworth living, else half of us shouldn't be here. If you follow this arguement to its conclusion, we should require everyone to prove they can provide a good environment and get a license before having a kid. Its conclusion also states we should nuke and pave nations like Somalia and Sudan, where suffering is the rule instead of the exception. Suffering does not negate the vaule of life, especially not when happiness is still possible. I'm not saying abortion doesn't have its place... I can see it for extreme genetic disorders, cases of rape, and saving a mothers life when a c-section isn't possible. But as a rule, it is, in my opinion, wrong. |
Perhaps not. So maybe it'd be more appropriate to level the blame on the fifteen or sixteen year old girl who got sweet-talked into the sack by Mr. Studly, the star quarterback for the varsity team. Or the woman walking home from the bus stop that gets pulled into the bushes by the sicko in the ski mask, because she doesn't want a bastard child on her hands. There are many variables in this situation ... to many different situations that come into play. Personally, the death of a child is the most heinous crime imaginable. The abortion of a fetas within the very early stages ...  I don't know. I just think that people need to be far more responsible with their lives. Too many kids (and adults) today are so focused on "getting laid," that they never stop to consider the consequences of a mistake.Abort the fetis ... fine ... yet punish all parties involved! 
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Are you saying that they didn't have a choice when they did NOT use birth control? |
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And as for every other nation ... I say let them rot! If the cannibals of some third world African shithole want to go on a tear with machetes, why is it always up to the United States to stop them? Let those other holier-than-thou-nations of the U.N. deal with the problem. The U.S. Military is for kicking ass, not policing! |
Can we agree to disagree on everything else and just agree on the U.S. Military is for kicking ass part? I really don't give a shit about what goes on outside our borders either... But sometimes it's in our interest to mess with things, either on a large or small scale. |
A-d-o-p-t-i-o-n.
This is on of the few scenarios I can see abortion being okay, but to be honest, it's for genetic reasons as much as anything. Otherwise adoption would again be the solution |
 So, you're saying that murdering babies is the moral high ground?
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My emotions might get in the way of my being able to think clearly if that happened, I plainly admit. |
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So everyone that isn't going to have a chance needs to die, well thats a excuse for a genocide, That includes everyone born of a poor family and anyone born in most countries on earth. Of course people who get adopted actually have a chance. My brother-in-law was adopted, he is rather wealthy. |
That wasn't what I meant, and I believe you know it.
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Let me guess, your under 18. I had a teacher, years ago, who use to always say"the fair is in Springfield in August, other than that, I don't know what fair is." The question you pose, is unreasonable. Your basically saying that because we can't protect every child, we should protect none. |
Comparative levels of innocence are irrelevant. The United States government should protect citizens of the United States - not citizens of the great state of Somalia. People with their private funds may give voluntary donations to help out Somalian children, but it is outside the scope of the U.S. government. |
It isn't the concern of the GOVERNMENT, that is a concern of the CHURCH. The church does still have a role in the world. |
That is a half assed excuse that self people use to justify abortion when the truth is that THEY do not want to deal with the child. Lots of people who "didn't stand a chance" grew up and had a huge impact on the world. As for the genocides around the world, we really don't have the power to do much about them. Especially the wars in Africa. Civil wars and similar conflicts only resolve themselves when the parties involved become weary of war and decide that it is time for peace. |
Then why should I give a shit if some other American is having an abortion if I don't know them? If it's not one of my family members, why should I care any more about the fetus than I care about the Somali kid? What makes an American fetus more important than a Somali kid? |
uh oh... |
There's bad stuff that happens in the world. That's reality. That doesn't mean I have to let it happen in MY back yard. I don't have the right or the ABILITY to fix the problems that exist in everyone's home....but that doesn't mean I have to tolerate those problems in MY home. |
Is it fair to solve the issue of a child whose parents are uninterested by shooting him/her in the back of the head? The adoption system isn't the greatest environment...but neither is the inside of a medical waste bin. |
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abortion isnt murder. a fetus isnt alive until it can survive outside of a host body. I know plenty of kids that should have been abortions. In fact I work with a 20 year old girl who has 2 kids. she is so fucking dumb that she doesn't even know what the civil war was. she sucks up my tax dollars on welfare and WIC, and cant even do her hostess job right. no wonder she is always trying to land a drug dealer man who can keep her high and support her. do you think her kids are gonna grow up smart and succesfull in the projects with her? or do you think they are gonna become gang bangers, and perpetuate the cycle of poverty and ignorance? |
Ah, yes...the survival argument. Human children cannot survive without INTENSIVE attention and care from adults for quite sometime. So we should allow abortion until the kid is 8 or 9. |
You don't have to care about it anymore than you care about a serial killer killing people on the opposite side of the U.S.; however, the government, whose purpose is to protect it's citizenry, should care. |
Yet another in a long string of silly statements from you. Someone must be willing to send US troops and treasure to any corner of the world without reservations or thoughtful consideration of the strategic goals being served or the limitations of our resources, or they are some sort of hypocrite..... What idiocy. |
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's practical or that we should do it. People who scream about the sanctity of life are hypocritical about ignoring it and then saying the destruction of an embryo is an abomination to mankind. It has nothing to do with the government. |
So every kid born of bad parents turns out just like them right? That nonsense was disproved a very long time ago. The old mass sterialization programs didn't do any good. By the way the more abortion is pushed the more goverment programs also pop up so people can leach off our tax dollars. Legalizing abortion in now way cut down the cost of goverment handouts, its went through the roof. This is the age of living without responsibility. |
I don't think you'll find any pro-lifer who says that the genocides that happened in Rawanda or other places in this world are no big deal. Quite the opposite. You seem to be confusing the lack of conviction that we can FIX THE PROBLEM with the idea that what is happening is just fine and dandy. Further, your idea that they don't give a rip is the height of ignorance...my little church alone helped finance the rescue of several Rawandans and supported their emigration into the US....and we are not alone in that.
The taking of innocent life PERIOD is something we all want to see eliminated.... Unfortunately reality says that we can't stop that from happening everywhere. The idea, however, that because we can't eliminate it everywhere that we should tolerate the LARGELY UN-NECESSARY killing of human children in the womb just because somebody doesn't want to care for them. Abortion in the US is something within our control. It's something we CAN deal with, and it's a problem we CAN solve. There's no comparison to tribal problems in Africa that no amount of aid, UN troops or UN resolutions, Christian missionary and relief efforts, etc can seem to stop. |
That is a fantasy. Even before Roe v. Wade this was not the case. It will never be the case. It's as useful as pounding sand. The only thing that can be done effectively is to target the causes of abortions and try to reduce the numbers. |
Im glad to hear that she ended up ok. Its nice to know some of those stories have a happy ending. Abortion is wrong in my opinion to, but I think that it is a moral choice not a legal one. |
You see. This is exactly what I mean. How can you call some life innocent and worthy of protection while calling others unworthy and not worth saveing? |
Im 21. Dont start with the immature attacks just because you dont like what Im asking. I am trying to conduct this debate without people making personal attacks. Its a heated subject and I would like to know how people think on it. I am not saying we should protect anyone, I am asking what the difference is in innocent life that is alive and innocent life that isnt. |
So, why is it that the people who want to demand the the baby be born (to protect its constitutional rights) are the very same people who want to do absolutely nothing to help the adult raise the child after it is born, and the veryu same people who want to put it to death after it has committed some heinous crime? This position is very counter-family values. |
They are also often the ones who are against useful sex education and any kind of programs to get contraceptives into the hands of poor uneducated people who are most likely to have these abortions. |
Life that isn't alive? zombies? |
Ok. I admit. Poor wording giving the subject matter, but you know what I mean. Life that hasnt been born. Sorry for the mistake. |