[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 45/70 question (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/4/2008 1:21:20 PM EDT
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I was looking at a Marlin Guide Gun @ Dick's Sporting Goods. Nice gun but: what do you use it for? It seems too powerful for short range medium-sized game and not accurate enough for long range shooting. Whats the deal? ETA for typo |
Because you can hunt and kill any animal in North America with it, everything from hummingbirds to polar bears. 
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You would be wrong on both accounts. The 45-70's big slow bullet destroys less meat than your typical high-speed deer rifle like a 270/308/30-06. If you use factory 405gr ammo you can literally 'eat right up to the hole'. OTOH, if you handload to the max pressures for the rifle and add appropriate sights you would be amazed at how well it performs at long range. From this page: The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879 THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target - a surveyed 2,500 yards distant. Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away! The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say: "The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards. In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used." The chapter on long range firing begins with a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance. His interest had been aroused by reports of long range infantry fire, up to 1½ miles, during the1877-78 Turko-Russian War. The lineage of the "trapdoor" rifles used in the tests is apparent from the separate lock plate, the massive side hammer, the milling out of a portion of barrel and fitting a breechblock hinged at the front - all clear indications that the rifles were merely breech-loading variations of the traditional muzzle-loading infantry-man's rifle. The Allin conversion of the 1861 and 1863 models Springfield muzzle-loaders came out first in .58 caliber rimfire. Later refinements resulted in the .50-70 rimmed centerfire for the 1866 model. The .45-70 cartridge was first introduced with the Model 1873 single shot Springfield. Several model changes were made from 1873 through 1889, relatively minor differences being the type of sights, modified and improved breech-blocks and changes in stock furniture. |
August as a matter of fact
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The original concept of the guide gun was that you'd have a short handy rifle with enough power to take out dangerous critters who get to close. What people found out is that it is very accurate (just hella hard to determine trajectory at distance when compared to flat shooting cartridges) and just a hoot to shoot for whatever reason. The beauty of the guide gun in 45/70 (or .444 Marlin and .450 Marlin) for hunting is that with hard cast solid lead, you can still take down smaller game with authority and actually do less meat damage than with lighter expanding rounds. Obviously not the best 300+ yard flatland rifle, but excells for closer work. You "can" shoot it long range, but it's just lots harder in the shorter barrel guide gun. With the longer barreled variants, you can pretend you're Quigly down under. |
Why - just three days ago.... www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22464508/ |
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My brother and I have used it with great success even on whitetail deer. Many other hunters in the field look at the cavernous end of the barrel and ask, "Why the hell do you need that much rifle?" I reply that I don't like cripples or tracking a wounded animal through the woods at dusk. Most deer hit with a 300 grain .45/70 crater in their tracks (one I literally saw the hooves - legs sticking straight up in the scope after squeezing the trigger). And as reported in other posts the wound is not too bad. I've seen ought six wounds that bridged on HORENDOUS and rendered a good bit of meat unusable. Although don't take this as a slam on the 30-06, I shoot a .280 Rem myself and without the ought six I'd be outta luck. I just choose neck shots with that particular caliber. |
Yea, you see… People stopped carrying 45/70s and the dang buffalo are back to their evil tricks again. |
 Talk about timing.... |
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I have a Co-Pilot in 45/70. It's like a Guide Gun but with some extra smithing. I love this rifle and whenever I let some Old timers shoot it at the range. I always get a smile from them after they pull the trigger. The 45/70 will get the job done on the bigger game and the fact that you can shoot a .410 out of a 45/70 chambered firearm means that you can take the smaller game. Where I live the 45/70 & .410 is a very handy package to have on hand. If I could only have one rifle. It would be my Co-Pilot in 45/70 that can fire a .410 round. Being that I live where I live. 
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Don't say that too loudly around here. The "ain't no such thing as knock-down power" crowd will be along to lynch you shortly... |
Sorry, but I have to call BS or maybe you are a wimp. The 45/70 won't give you a KICK. It's more like a PUSH. Less kick/push than a 30.06 and that's not much of a kick/push. |
Try a hot 45/70 load with a crescent stock and steel buttplate.. |
I shoot some very hot ammo made by Aalaka Ammo. Yes my Co-Pilot has a recoilpad but I'll stand by what I posted. |
+1 UNLESS....you were shooting high power loads. Generic winchester hunting loads(which which are only level 2(deer and light skined game) BTW), just push, and are fun to shoot. It is a sizable push, but hardly bad at all. Equal to maybe a 20 ga shotgun. But I put some PMC +P+ 45-70 down range and thought my arm would fall off. |
My guide gun kicks hard enough that about every other shot the trigger guard gets my trigger finger pretty good. I'm no wimp when it comes to shooting. [shrug] |
I think you need to work on your grip and holding the weapon firmer into your shoulder. [shrug] That's all I can say to help you. |
Hmmm. I shoot 450 grain bullets. Matbe I should try some of the newer 350 grain bullet loads. Either way I tried several different techniques as far as grip. It is a super fun gun to shoot....I need to try some different loads. |
Never hurts to try something new. You're right. It's a super fun gun to shoot. 
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I want one of those NEF single shots! They're something like $250 from WalMart,IIRC. It would be cheap shooting for me as a reloader and bullet caster: black powder and home cast lead 400 or 500gr bullets in an easy to clean single shot break action. |
| Buy it you wont be sorry, I have both a marlin and a NEF and love shooting both of them, if you reload you can taylor the load to hunt anything from rabbits to grizzy bears, well maybe not rabbits unless you like finding just the ears. The NEF is the most accurate rifle I own, 38.5 gr of 3031 and 405 cast will shoot 1 in an 100, and will shoot through a good size tree. Watch your backstop thats a lot of lead to stop. |
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My .45/70 was mainly purchased with bears in mind. I'd like to know what would give the OP the impression it's not accurate. Accuracy was a bad choice of words. I looked up the Remington ballistics chart and the bullet drop was pretty impressive. It just seemed impractical for distance shooting IMO. |
Guess I must be a wimp but it was much more than an 06. Don't know what the load was. I thought his 375H&H gave more of a "push" than the 45-70. Sorry for not living up to your expectations. Please continue to flame away. 
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Thanks
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Shoot a 325 grain handload stuffed with H322. It's painful. |
I've shot everything from 450's to 325's out of my GS. The lighter bullets are much worse. The larger bullets have more recoil, but the lighter bullets have more recoil velocity. |
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You can (have to) reload to get real performance , Sledgehammer makes some killer loads . If you reload there's a site called Beartooth Bullets . IMHO they make the finest 45/70 , and .45 Colts bullets there are . I could tell you what they can do penetration wise , but I don't want the grief . Look up beartooth bullets on the web . For loaded ammo go Hammerheads unreal but true in my limited tests . |
NNever piss off the arm operator of a buffalo. |
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| Someone on here posted a picture of a really nice Stainless 45-70 he had made that was able to be broken down into a couple pieces. I beleave from the action back and the forarm/barrel being the other. IF you're around I'd love to know who made it and where to get on being I want one too!!! |
Actually the deer didn't get knocked down, he didn't even move. The bullet had went in above the right shoulder and went through the deer from front to back without exiting. He was basically suffocating since his lungs were jelly and didn't know he was dead yet. Once he was dead he went "tits up".
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