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Posted: 10/26/2001 7:06:14 PM EDT
The same site that had the military leadership test also had a re-fight of the battle of Gettysburg where you get to play General lee and re-fight the battle. I smoked the union! Scored a "Significant Confederate Victory" Give it a try! [beer]
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 7:07:12 PM EDT
I'm now fighting Gulf war II. Will let you know how I fare....
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 8:27:57 PM EDT
What is this site? GunLvr
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 9:12:33 PM EDT
Yea, how about a link?[uzi]
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 9:29:51 PM EDT
Here is the link to Gettysburg [url]http://www.military.com/Resources/Games?file=gburg-intro.htm[/url] I didn't do so well at Gulf War II. It ended up being a minor Iraqi victory.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 9:31:59 PM EDT
I got a significant confederate victory just by doing the opposite of what I remember the confederates doing on day 2 and 3. I've watch the movie Gettysburg a few too many times [;)]
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 9:41:36 PM EDT
Can you re-fight Gettysburg with Jackson still alive? Just curious. Woulda wouped'em if Stonewall was alive for it.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 9:53:34 PM EDT
Significant victory! I did it again and won a decisive victory and won the war, but there are no second chances. Glad it was only a game.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 10:08:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TRW: I didn't do so well at Gulf War II. It ended up being a minor Iraqi victory.
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I've played it differently 5 times and I always end with up a Iraqi victory. I'm beginning to think there is no other outcome.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 10:28:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Diesel:
Originally Posted By TRW: I didn't do so well at Gulf War II. It ended up being a minor Iraqi victory.
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I've played it differently 5 times and I always end with up a Iraqi victory. I'm beginning to think there is no other outcome.
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See...I knew the game was fixed. No-win situation.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 11:16:57 PM EDT
Woo Hoo!!! Major Victory in the Gulf War!
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 3:13:36 AM EDT
Significant Confederate victory, Major Victory in the gulf.
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 3:43:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 4:56:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2001 5:00:47 PM EDT by RobDog]
I don't see any of the many victories Lee achieved against the Union armies during the first few years of the war, most at a complete disadvantage, as defensive in nature. Lee was a cunning general who did twice as much as thought possible with the number of men and resources that were available to the Army of Northern Virginia. He was a defensive genius for sure when the tide turned after Gettysburg. Many times surviving to fight another day when total victory was all but assured by the Union troops. I think you might want to read some books about the War Between the States written prior to todays "revised" garbage. Ted Turners "Gettysburg" movie was very PC in it's subtle slander against Robert Edward Lee and has produced the desired effect of degrading the stature of this military master. Much like Ken Burns "Civil War" convinced America that the Civil War was only about slavery. Get a clue!
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 6:37:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2001 6:52:30 PM EDT by rocket]
RobDog is right. Lee was awesome. I won a significant victory for the Confederates, too. I wish it were as easy as pushing four buttons for Lee. Leadership test result: Based on your answers, your profile matches... Robert E. Lee!
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 7:06:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: R.E Lee was an outstanding defensive general. As on offensive general, his record was mixed prior to the death of Jackson, and dismal thereafter. Lee is much over-rated, IMHO.
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Here's an idea. How about you get a clue, then post on something that you know about? Thanks! -FPC_anon
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 7:16:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2001 7:16:24 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 7:46:05 PM EDT
Here's a few of my sources: The U.S. Army War College "Guide to the Battles of Chancellorville & Fredricksburg" "Lee's Dispatches" Douglas Freeman "The Civil War" Bruce Catton "This Hallowed Ground" Bruce Catton "The Army of the Potomac" Bruce Catton "The Lees of Virginia" Nagel "The Civil War" Shelby Foote I gave my cliff notes version of Lee's Civil War results. Don't just say he was or is over-rated and leave it at that. Back up your thesis with some valid and intelligent thoughts. From your obvious ignorance of Civil War facts I'm sure you are using Turner's fictional version of history, the movie "Gettysburg" as your source of reference. As it was said before, get a clue![:(!]
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 8:09:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2001 8:09:20 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 8:28:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 8:29:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2001 8:30:41 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 8:52:54 PM EDT
Decisive Confederate Victory!!! Whoohooo! The South is Victorious at Gettysburg.
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 9:59:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: Gentlemen, your silence is deafening. OK, I hung around for 1/2 hour, and no response. I have a great deal of respect for Gen Lee, but I have no illusions about him, either. And please don't automatically assume I, or someone else who disagrees with conventional wisdom is automatically wrong.
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RAF, it seems you're basing your view of Lee off of Gettysburg alone. And while it was a very important battle, it fails to mention the almost 4 years that Lee was outmanned and outgunned that he held on. Also what you have to say is a very subjective statement. (I think cheesecake is overrated.) I think many people will disagree with you however. But I don't want to argue over this (I'm not in the mood to write a history paper) I have better things to do. As far as Alexanders remarks, it's known that after the Civil War many memoirs were released and there was a lot of politicing and blame being thrown around. Pickett absolutely hated Lee after the war. Yes what Lee did with Picketts charge was rather stupid, but that was one battle. He was a perfect soldier when he was still with the US army. no demerits at West Point (I believe he was the only cadet at the time to have done so). He pulled off his term building forts very well and was well respected. He became the headmaster of West Point for a while as well. By many accounts he was Scott's right hand man during the Mexican War, being promoted twice during that war (as a side note, the Jackson was the only man promoted three times in the field). By anyones accounts Lee was a gentleman. While Grant (only one of many Northern generals) had a "suspicious" character. I don't believe he was an alcoholic during the war although same say he was, and he had many problems during his presidential days. Lee took care of his family after his father basically screwed everything up. He was a very devout christian (that really doesn't mean much to me, but it does to some people). I could go into his military campaigns and the points that in my eyes make him a genius, but that has been done so many times, so I woon't. oh yes, Morale. Lee's men loved him, Grant's men called him a Butcher (i forgot the exact name, sorry). Lee had a keen eye for finding good ground to fight on and good men to lead the fight. THat's just a few reasons why I think Lee was a great general, and it appears that what you believe is what you believe, I'm not going to argue over something as silly as over-rated or under-rated. However I would argue over the fact that Lee was a good general. (I know this may not make sense, and i've made some errors, but it's late, and I don't like writing.) Thanks -FPC_anon
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 9:59:32 PM EDT
Significant Confederate victory!!!
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 4:23:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 4:33:44 AM EDT
Sorry, raf, but you're friggin dead wrong about Lee! Eric The(AndI'llPutMyKnowledgeOfTheWarBetweenTheSt­atesUpAgainstYoursAnyDay!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 4:46:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2001 4:40:54 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 5:00:42 AM EDT
Arguments about someone or something being "overrated" tend not to be very productive because they depend upon the conjunction of two different questions: 1) What's the rating? 2) What [b]should[/b] the rating be? You'd have a better debate if you were to argue for and against a proposition such as "Robert E. Lee was one of the five best generals of the American Civil War (Between the States)".
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 5:06:36 AM EDT
You were wrong about the part about the failure of confidence in General Lee among Southern soldiers following Gettysburg. Let's see now, when was the Battle of the Wilderness, hmmmm, when: "...the Fourth Texas under Gen. Longstreet fought at the Battle of the Wilderness for the first time in a major conflict without General Hood (recuperating from the loss of his leg). "General Lee on Traveller and with smoke from artillery swirling around him watched anxiously for Longstreet while the Federals shattered the right flank of his Army of Virginia, when he spotted a score of ragged soldiers dash forward with muskets at the ready. "They were Texans. [b]Texans![/b] That meant they were from Hood's famous brigade in Longstreet's corp. That meant Longstreet had arrived! In a rare show of excitement, Robert E Lee spurred Traveller forward through the gun pits. He rode as if to lead the Texans. They shouted "[b]Go back, General Lee, go back![/b] and "[b]Lee, to the rear![/b]" [u]He seemed to ignore them[/u] so they cried "We won't go on unless you go back." "Persuaded at last. Lee reined in Traveller, waved his hat at the onrushing Texans, and rode back reluctantly to see Gen. Longstreet, where he was asked to go even farther behind the lines. Then Gen. Longstreet came forward to stop the Yankee attack only to be badly wounded himself." Doesn't sound to me that Bobby Lee (if I may be permitted to use so informal a name for the General), had lost any of the love and confidence of his Men. Course, loving Gen. Lee is a (mostly) 'Southern Thing' that a Northerner might not grasp. Eric The(YouAreForgivenMyDearBoy)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 5:10:13 AM EDT
Post from raf -
Well, let's use R.E.Lee's own officers as a source.
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Why? I doubt that Gen Grant would have won much of a popularity test among his own officers. Yet he won their war for them! Eric The(Forget?Hell!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 5:16:17 AM EDT
Post from raf -
Grant: (own)12.2 (enemy)13.6. Lee: (own)15.4 (enemy)12.5.
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What does that mean? I mean the numbers 12.2, etc.? Is that battlefield deaths, or deaths from all causes? What period of time is covered by those numbers? I mean Lee was fighting from 1862 on, while Grant was back in the West where fighting was not exactly fierce and the engagements limited. Are these numbers for the period of time after Grant took charge of the Federals? What was the Yankee desertion rate at the period? I await your responses to these serious questions. Eric The(ISleptWithPicturesOf'Lee&Jackson'AtTheFootOfMyBed)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 5:32:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 5:36:51 AM EDT
Once again, what was the desertion rate of the Victorious Federal Army? And the men were leaving [u]because[/u] of Gen Lee? Eric The(WhereDoesLeeSayThat?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 5:44:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 5:48:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 6:01:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2001 5:57:59 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 6:06:49 AM EDT
Dear raf - Here's a little bit of trivia from the US Civil War Center: "By 1864, there were an average of 7,333 desertions a month from the Union army. Many desertions were the result of bounty jumpers - men who would collect bounty to enlist, then desert and do it again elsewhere. The US government spent $300 million dollars on bounties while state and local governments spent about the same." See [url]http://home.ptd.net/~nikki/cwtrivia.htm[/url] Weren't the Feds 'winning the war' by 1864? Eric The(TheyWereLeavingBecauseOf'Butcher'Grant?Ma­ybe?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 6:10:27 AM EDT
Post from raf -
The figures cited show that Grant lost fewer troops from all causes than he cost the enemy.
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'From all causes'? Does that include deaths from disease, starvation, etc.? So, Gen. Grant did not 'butcher' his own men? Eric The(That'sNewsWeShouldAllBeProudOf!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 6:10:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 6:25:05 AM EDT
Post from raf -
Uh, Eric, if most of the desertees were by definition "bounty jumpers" they were doing it for the MONEY.
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That is the 'supposed' explanation of the high rate of desertion, not the proven reason for the high rate of Federal desertions, right? Eric The(Right?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 6:31:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: Decisive Confederate Victory!!! Whoohooo! The South is Victorious at Gettysburg.
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I also achived a Decisive Confederate Victory! Maybe you and I should muster a couple of divisions and try it again? [;)] For all of you "lesser" Generals incapable of victory, below is the result of a true Confederate leader in action: [;)] "On the afternoon of July 3rd, a thunderous artillery barrage opened fire on the Union center. Northern guns returned the fire with solid effect, but were then ordered to cease hour and a half to convince the rebels that the artillery preparation had been successful. Little did they realize that it was a diversion. Over fifteen thousand soldiers of Pickett's division and brigades from the Confederate I and III Corps surged toward the Union right flank, smashed into it, and sent it falling back beyond the Baltimore Pike. The Union commander, General George Meade, had expected an attack from the opposite direction and was caught unawares. Longstreet's other divisions on the Union left were able to reach the Taneytown Road and cut it off for hours until driven partially back by intensive, but very costly Union cavalry charges. In the east, the Pickett was able to capture Rock Creek Bridge and a sizeable slice of the Baltimore Pike. After four hours of intense combat and near-total encirclement, the Army of the Potomac began a headlong flight back towards Washington. The Union Army did not completely escape and ended up losing losing over 10,000 men as prisoners near Cemetery Ridge. The battle was over and it had been a disaster for the Army of the Potomac. The rebels rampaged throughout Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and even into New York over the next month. Great Britain and France recognized the Confederacy as a nation and shortly thereafter and President Lincoln began to seek a negotiated end to the war -- on Southern terms. The South had won the war at Gettysburg. --Ah, the sweet smell of victory--
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 6:41:52 AM EDT
Hmmm....the "Leadership Profile" I most closely match is that of John Paul Jones. "I have not yet begun to fight!" Pretty sweet.
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 6:47:31 AM EDT
By the way, raf, did the CSA ever pay bounties for enlistment of soldiers? Hmmmmm? Eric The(DidTheCSAEverAwardMedalsForBravery?)Hun[>­]:)]
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 8:23:02 AM EDT
First off I am sorry by insinuating that you took your knowledge form a TV movie. Obviously this is not the case. I too do not want to write a history lesson, I can't type! I will say I agree with the words of FPC, and Eric the Hun. I am a northerner and very much think Lee was a master and deserves to be at the top of the list of great American commanders. My father was more than a Civil War buff. I'd go as far as saying he was a authority. I take my view-point much from what he taught me and from the books he left to me. I will just say let's agree to dis-agree. We both can counter each others views from here to tomorrow. Cya RobDog[:\]
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 12:33:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 12:40:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 12:41:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2001 12:36:55 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:35:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:42:15 AM EDT
So, raf, the Confederate Congress actually offered to grant slaves their freedom for their agreement to fight for the South? How many slaves took them up on their offer? Eric The(AndJustImagineIfTheyDid!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 10:58:41 AM EDT
Care to make it 2 out of 3? [:D] Eric The(OfCourse,I'mJustJoking...)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/29/2001 11:12:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2001 11:37:20 AM EDT by raf]
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