Posted: 9/26/2007 5:59:04 AM EDT
| . |
so the brass doesnt like people in their war zone who dont salute??? correct?? |
Or former enlisted that pull down two and three star style incomes. 
|
|
WTF? "The deaths of contractors from Blackwater helped precipitate the debacle in Fallujah in 2004 and now the loss of Blackwater is causing disruptions in the war effort in 2007," said one military intelligence officer. "Why are we creating new vulnerabilities by relying on what are essentially mercenary forces?"] i expect that from the democratic left... not from .... |
|
If you guys would read between the lines, you would see that most in the military agree that PSCs are necessary these days. It's the lack of any form of accountability that everyone seems to have a problem with. It seems like most here have absolutely dismissed the possibility that the BW guys in this incident over reacted. Why? It is possible, isn't it? |
hell i dont know one way or another. i wasnt in traffic when the SHTF. |
I hear you. I don't know and I wasn't there either. But you can't deny that there are many here who simply dismiss the idea that the BW guys screwed the pooch. Those are the guys my question was directed at. |
1. BW contractors are governed by ROE essentially the same as what a federal LE officer is governed by. And every time they use force they have to undergo review of that use of force by the contracting agency...DOS in this case. "Lack of accountability" is horse poop. Anyone harping about "lack of accountability" is either A. too ignorant to listen to, or B. pushing an agenda. 2. "possible"...... 
|
I do not for one second believe that BW contractors walked out one day and decided to shoot up a bunch of unarmed civilians. Could there have been some truly unarmed civilians that may have been hit during a gun battle? Sure. But has been showed over and over again with our own military, guys come out to fight, they get shot, someone else picks up their AK and presto they are now unarmed civilians gunned down by the boys in green. |
From what? do you think he's a conservative voter after a comment like that? Just because he's an officer in the military... doesn't mean that he's automatically a member of some sort of Christian-Coalition, borderline-nationalistic, conservative Republican 2nd amendment internet gun-forum. Besides, he didn't use his screen name and say anything like "what, no video?" Nor did I read any mention of the term SIHPAPP or that Ed Sr. was the reincarnation of Mars the God of War. |
I have seen this very thing..... and as for no accountability???? HORSE SHIT>! I cant speak as to all of the PSDs but the BW guys are consumate proffessionals that are absolutely accountable for what they do, and know it. They DID NOT just go out and start shooting people for no apparent reason I guarantee that. NO I am not just an armchair QB, I have been there, prolly will be again. Pilk |
I agree, its not like they woke up that day and said "hey guys lets go bag some iraqis" I'd be pretty pissed too if I where commanding. Here you've got guys that where in the same position as the men you're commanding but now they are making more than you, a boatload more, and they dont have to strictly adhere to your orders or ask your approval for everything they do. My cousin used to hang out with the BW guys at his base in iraq, he said the higher ups loathed them, but that they did do stupid shit all the time like almost running people over, ramming cars and being crazy on the road. Granted ... its a fucking war zone 
|
|
The firm mostly hires former Navy SEAL operatives. "They are immature shooters, and have very quick trigger fingers. Their tendency is shoot first and ask questions later," said an Army lieutenant colonel serving in Iraq. "Many of us feel that when Blackwater and other groups conduct military missions, they should be subject to the same controls under which the Army operates," __________________________________________________________________________________ So Navy SEALs are immature shooters huh? a.) Thes BW guys in Falluja they are referring to were guarding a convoy of food/kitchen utensils heading for a military base and were contracted by the military/KBR/Haliburton/Bush-Cheyney war monger machine, and should have been regulated as such (by the military.) b.) The BW guys involved on the September 16th incident are not in ANY way affiliated with/overseen by/regulated by/or any concern of the US military. These are State Department contractors, filling agent positions cause there aren't enough agents to do the job. What would the military be saying if a motorcade full of DSS agents (protected by diplomatic immunity) did the same? c.) There is only one answer. Remove the US Embassy from Iraq. Make the evil contractor protectors go away. Give hugs to people who shoot at us. |
I prefer passing out Beanie Babies and blowing kisses. |
I am sure they have an ROE. I just wonder how strict it is and how closely abided by it is. I imagine DOS would be pretty liberal with their ROE since their main concern is going to be getting their people out alive. Not protecting some Iraqi "Civilian". The Army is complaing about a lack of uniformity and what appears to be the PSC's contributing to a larger sense of ill will that may be sabotaging their efforts at building a rapport with the Iraqis. Now from what I understand BW doesn't hire any foreign nationals so I guess that would mean that they are one of the few PCS companies that are actually not "Mercs" so that definition is incorrect. mer·ce·nar·y [mur-suh-ner-ee] adjective, noun, plural -nar·ies. –adjective 1. working or acting merely for money or other reward; venal. 2. hired to serve in a foreign army, guerrilla organization, etc. –noun 3. a professional soldier hired to serve in a foreign army. 4. any hireling. I guess perhaps we could all be mercenaries? |
Dude....it's the State Department....Diplomats. They aren't going to just chuckle if a BW guy pops an actual civilian that doesn't need to get popped. The contractors are not inclined to just drive around shooting people, and the DOS sure as hell doesn't have laying waste to the civilian population as a part of the contract. The oversight by DOS on contractors working security for them is VERY real and VERY involved. There's a REASON why the DOS isn't throwing BW under the bus on this one. This whole incident is nothing but a bunch of propaganda. The ROE is strict. It is strictly enforced. What doesn't make the news are all the occasions when people guarding DOS convoys have NOT used lethal force DESPITE being authorized to by the ROE. Why? Because the reality is nobody in that game wants to get into a gunfight with a bunch of insurgents. It's counter productive. They fight if they HAVE to fight, but they don't go seeking one out. That's how contractors get killed. I haven't met any of them that wanted to end up bleeding out on some dusty Iraqi street for the excitement of it all.
SOME people in the Army are as absolutely clueless about what contractors do and what guidelines they live under as any joe off the street....this despite the fact that the DOD actually has contracts with BW too. I guaran-darn-tee you every DOD contract has oversight built into it too.
The most accurate description of what the BW contractors do is security. They don't conduct offensive operations. They are issued weapons, but a Glock and an M4 is pitifully little armament in a place like Baghdad where every house has a friggin' machine gun and where the bad guys have no trouble getting their hands on stuff like belt feds, RPGs, and high grade military explosives. There's a bunch of tinfoil worthy black helicopter nonsense that surrounds what contractors do because few people know any actual facts about what they do. When the facts turn out not to be as sexy as the fantasy, many will stick with the fantasy because it's easier to whack off to. |
|
Every time I hear something about this (or similar situations where the Mil or other had some collateral damage in the Islamic world).....I remember the Palestinian (?) Funeral Procession through the streets, carrying the victims of the Evil Israeli Oppressors. Of course, the people in the procession didn't realize there was a video tape running--and the Victim would get out of the casket and let someone else take a ride through the streets... |
...and you should be. The insurgents and terrorists stage all sorts of stuff for the cameras specifically because they know there are enough people who are stupid enough to believe it. |
|
Iv'e talked with plenty of PSC's and understand what the job is and who does it. There are good and bad ones just like anytihng. Most PSC's understand a judicious use of force is usually the better part of valor. That being said there are plenty of these guys that run around like freaking cowboys. From my understanding the South African ones are the trouble makers. I seriously doubt that the DOS officials are standing there looking around and making sure every dead Iraqi was a threat. They have their head down and are in the vehicle not observing for vilations of the ROE. Also perhaps the reason DOS is not "throwing BW under the bus" is they have no-one else to protect them. Their convoys got shut down while BW was out of commission. These discussion are very useful and can be productive is peopel are willing to critically think about things and not just blindly assume that BW was right or wrong. Personally I think that BW preceived a threat(real/imagined), engaged it, the situation escalated, both enemy combatants and Iraqi civilians got killed and injured and BW drove off with no caulaties (that I'm aware of). |
|
All I have to say to your pretensious and largely assumptious statements is whatever dude. Go get on your high horse and ride off if you are not sure how to have a constructive conversation without trying to degrade other people in an effort to make yourself seem more knowledgeable. Have a nice day. ETA: Read your own sig line. |
|
If you want to discuss something intelligently, know what you're talking about instead of assuming. My sigline refers to the uninformed. I assure you that in this case, I most certainly am not. ETA: I forgot that I changed my sigline after reading your post. ETA2: You said: "That being said there are plenty of these guys that run around like freaking cowboys" and in your response to me say "All I have to say to your pretensious and largely assumptious statements is whatever dude." Who's making assumptions? Me who's been there, or you calling people you don't know freaking cowboys? I stand by my sigline, even more so now. |
Ya....Quien is the one who is way off here.... 
|
|
The DoS Oversight of the WPPS contractors goes so far as to tell them what color/brand/fabric content of shirts, pants, boots, undershirts and Tactical Gear that is authorized. If there is any more oversight it will have to be in the socks and an official determination on the practice of going commando, and if said lack of skivy's by some contractors is the image that the Department of State wants to portray to the world. |
I've trained and worked with all of the above. I'll ride with any of them. I judge people individually. |