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AR15.COM
8/27/2006 4:36:17 PM EDT
If someone in another house has a unsecured wireless router, and my computer has connected to their router and I piggy back off of it?
8/27/2006 4:37:13 PM EDT
[#1]
Theft of services if you don't have permission
8/27/2006 4:37:30 PM EDT
[#2]
They are stupid for not securing their WAP.
8/27/2006 4:37:55 PM EDT
[#3]
not if you get permission
8/27/2006 4:43:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. They are sending a signal onto your property, right?

I've worked in the security field for 6 years now. I've heard many differing opinions, and ZERO rock soild legal opinions.

My suggestion is be smart.
8/27/2006 4:45:17 PM EDT
[#5]
If it isn't secured, I thought that it was legal?


Here is what is happening:
I am on vacation and someone in the neighborhood is beaming out signals across the hood. I clicked connect and here I am.


Is theft of service a felony or misdemeanor?
8/27/2006 4:52:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Almost the same here, I moved and mt internet gets hooked up on Wed. The connection is super slow so I can't wait for my 5M connection, this 30k shit is for the birds.
8/27/2006 4:53:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Is it stupid to leave a WAP unsecured? Yes.

Is it illegal to use said WAP without permission of the owner? Yes.

8/28/2006 10:45:41 AM EDT
[#8]
IANAL, but...

LISTENING to their unencrypted traffic, I don't think you're doing anything wrong.

TRANSMITTING would be where you knowingly begin to consume resources that don't belong to you.
8/28/2006 10:49:31 AM EDT
[#9]
Technically, yes.  It's kind of like walking in somebody's house just because the door is open.

"Unauthorized Access to a Computer System/Network" is usually the type of law that it breaks.
8/28/2006 10:51:45 AM EDT
[#10]
Even if you have their permission, it might also be a violation of the ISP's user agreement.  They would probably see it as no different than him sharing his cable tv feed with his neighbor without paying the cable company for two connections.
8/28/2006 10:56:54 AM EDT
[#11]
It is probably illegal.

It is definitely unethical and dishonest, IMO.


8/28/2006 10:57:27 AM EDT
[#12]
Is it illegal to watch your neighbors TV through a window?

You could say that by having an unsecure wireless router he is intentionaly providing acces to everyone.
8/28/2006 10:59:02 AM EDT
[#13]
Illegal it is, was recently, I seen on the News where a guy was sent to prison for doing just what you are.
8/28/2006 12:03:21 PM EDT
[#14]
How would you get caught?

Does the original owner have a way to see all computers hooked on his system ?

How would he know where / and who that was espcially if it was not your next door neighbor ?
8/28/2006 12:09:53 PM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:
How would you get caught?



If the guy isn't smart enough to secure his signal, he most likely isn't smart enough to figure out who is stealing it.
8/28/2006 12:13:58 PM EDT
[#16]
If I stopped by and filled your trash cans full of garbage on "trash day," would that make you happy?
8/28/2006 12:15:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Everything is legal if you dont get caught doing it, if you're not one of those "my consience would bother me" types.
8/28/2006 12:40:49 PM EDT
[#18]
Stop sending your unsecured wireless signal through my house!!!
8/28/2006 12:47:18 PM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:
Is it illegal to watch your neighbors TV through a window?

You could say that by having an unsecure wireless router he is intentionaly providing acces to everyone.


You could, but then you'd probably be wrong.

Comparing it to watching your neighbor's tv through the window (creepy, BTW) is disingenuous. It is much more like tapping a cable line crossing your property without access....even that analogy does not fully take into acocunt reduced network performance (or additional charges) to the person paying the bill resulting from bandwidth theft.
8/28/2006 1:04:42 PM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:
How would you get caught?

Does the original owner have a way to see all computers hooked on his system ?

How would he know where / and who that was espcially if it was not your next door neighbor ?



Most routers have a wireless client table. They go by hostname and mac address, usually. A lot of people are not very creative when naming their computers. It's not hard to figure out who a person is. As far as figuring out where, it can be done with a little effort.
8/28/2006 1:08:17 PM EDT
[#21]
Is it OK to shoot his ammo if he leaves his safe unlocked?

It's possibly illegal, but certainly unethical to steal the bandwidth. No, leaving the network unsecured does not make it any better, it just might open him up to liability or harassment if someone uses his connection for illegal activities online and it is traced back to his IP.
8/28/2006 1:13:06 PM EDT
[#22]
It is the owner of the wireless equipment to secure it, and he would be held responsible for any misuse.

As for you utilizing such signal, it is simply a miracle.

This guy leaves himself open for all kinds of liability by not securing the equipment.  You can just imagine if his IP address is identified as being offensive.


ETA: It may be unethical to utilize the signal, but I cannot see it being illegal.  In the meantime, the equipment owner has left unsecured access available to dispicable types like terrorists, kiddie porn downloaders, and ARFCOMMERS.
8/28/2006 1:22:18 PM EDT
[#23]
I lock down my access point with MAC filtering and WEP, but if I needed to use a laptop with unsecured access, I would feel NO guilt whatsoever about doing so, because I know plenty of people who leave their access open on purpose. I assume that if an access point is open and has no access control, it was intentional.
8/28/2006 1:25:43 PM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
How would you get caught?



If the guy isn't smart enough to secure his signal, he most likely isn't smart enough to figure out who is stealing it.



ding, ding, ding!!!!!!!!


and since all the pr0n will go through his connection............
8/28/2006 1:32:58 PM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:
Is it OK to shoot his ammo if he leaves his safe unlocked?



What about if he is throwing his ammo into your backyard? And not asking for it back.
8/28/2006 1:38:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Broadcasting your SSID and having it unlocked its a inventation for people to connect.
Think of it like having a sign in your front yard that reads "Open House". If you don't want people just to walk on in don't put up a sign that invites them.

On the other had if you have WEP or WPA enabled on your network, you are telling people it is a private party and your not allowed. Breaking into the network is just like going to a backyard BBQ uninvited. Grounds for getting drawn down on.


Smart people don't broadcast SSIDs and have their network encrypted with WPA and lock down the MAC addresses and do not use DHCP.

I was at best buy the other day(Not smart people). My cell phone picked up their SSID(cleaverly named BestBuy) and their network was completley unlocked. I was able to connect because they have a DHCP server. Someone with a laptop and a little time could molest their network severly.
8/28/2006 1:39:26 PM EDT
[#27]
You are looting someones bandwith.
I'd loot it too!
8/28/2006 1:40:34 PM EDT
[#28]
feel free to do it though.. no one's gonna know. except if the person you're stealing service from triangulates you, then you're fucked
8/28/2006 1:41:06 PM EDT
[#29]
Sounds like another Geek Squad install, but hey - they have badges!
8/28/2006 1:44:15 PM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:
feel free to do it though.. no one's gonna know. except if the person you're stealing service from triangulates you, then you're fucked



The same way when your cell phone locks on to a "roam" signal?

or

Like thier going to put in some huge effort to catch a perp "stealing" signal that was purposely left available?


Triangulation is excessive, they just need to do some diags..., and if they've already left that door open thier not bright enough to do much more.
8/28/2006 2:34:48 PM EDT
[#31]
Technically, it might be. But as long as you aren't doing anything illegal on the connection or sucking down so much bandwidth that he can't connect anymore, the chances of getting caught are just about zero. If they guy didn't want other people on there and was smart enough to figure out that someone else is on there and who they are, then he'd have locked it down.

Ethically, it's hard to say you're hurting or stealing anything, since the other guy can't even tell you're there. I'd consider it wrong to use someone else's wireless as your primary connection without permission, but I don't see much problem with using it for a short time while you're travelling or waiting on your connection to get installed. Keep in mind that some people leave their networks open on purpose for anyone who comes within range to use.
8/28/2006 3:53:40 PM EDT
[#32]
It is a community network apparently, I asked the people across the street. They said it was probably ok, it is an HOA neighborhood.
8/28/2006 3:57:27 PM EDT
[#33]
I walked around the neighborhood street with my laptop, I was trying to find out who to ask. Each house has a signal coming from it, and the signal is serial numbered. It was set up by the community for the community.
8/28/2006 3:58:47 PM EDT
[#34]
I walked around the neighborhood street with my laptop, I was trying to find out who to ask. Each house has a signal coming from it, and the signal is serial numbered. It was set up by the community for the community.
8/28/2006 4:02:08 PM EDT
[#35]
I would say not illegal.

And you wont be caught if they dont know how to set up security on their LAN.

I have a few people around me who have wireless lans and i have got into their routers setup by simply using default admin passwords.  Didnt mess with them though, i thought about leaving htem a message to fix that crap though.
8/28/2006 4:12:39 PM EDT
[#36]
i agree that there isn't any ethical reason (probably not legal either) not to (in moderation, no illegal websites/kiddie pr0n, etc.) utilize a open wireless network that broadcasts onto the property where you are legally entitled to be. if you actively search out open networks, trespass in order to find them, then there is a ethical problem and almost definitally a legal problem. if you have to break into the network then there is even more of a problem. lastly, if you do it with the intent to attack/disrupt thier computer network then a larger problem at that.

as a IT pro of sorts i always preach about taking the 3 minutes out to enable some form of protection on your wireless network, be it WEP/WAP, mac address filtering, disabling SSID broadcast. i have seen some businesses with confidential information on open network shares with a open wireless network- DUH!!!!