[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Missiles Neutralizing Israeli tanks (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/4/2006 2:38:50 PM EDT
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Missiles Neutralizing Israeli Tanks By BENJAMIN HARVEY (Associated Press Writer) From Associated Press August 04, 2006 4:50 PM EDT JERUSALEM - Hezbollah's sophisticated anti-tank missiles are perhaps the guerrilla group's deadliest weapon in Lebanon fighting, with their ability to pierce Israel's most advanced tanks. Experts say this is further evidence that Israel is facing a well-equipped army in this war, not a ragtag militia. Hezbollah has fired Russian-made Metis-M anti-tank missiles and owns European-made Milan missiles, the army confirmed on Friday. In the last two days alone, these missiles have killed seven soldiers and damaged three Israeli-made Merkava tanks - mountains of steel that are vaunted as symbols of Israel's military might, the army said. Israeli media say most of the 44 soldiers killed in four weeks of fighting were hit by anti-tank missiles. "They (Hezbollah guerrillas) have some of the most advanced anti-tank missiles in the world," said Yossi Kuperwasser, a senior military intelligence officer who retired earlier this summer. "This is not a militia, it's an infantry brigade with all the support units," Kuperwasser said. Israel contends that Hezbollah gets almost all of its weaponry from Syria and by extension Iran, including its anti-tank missiles. That's why cutting off the supply chain is essential - and why fighting Hezbollah after it has spent six years building up its arsenal is proving so painful to Israel, officials say. Israel's Merkava tanks boast massive amounts of armor and lumber and resemble fortresses on tracks. They are built for crew survival, according to Globalsecurity.org, a Washington-based military think tank. Hezbollah celebrates when it destroys one. "A Zionist armored force tried to advance toward the village of Chihine. The holy warriors confronted it and destroyed two Merkava tanks," the group proclaimed on television Thursday. The Israeli army confirmed two attacks on Merkava tanks that day - one that killed three soldiers and the other killing one. The three soldiers who were killed on Friday were also killed by anti-tank missiles, the army said. It would not say whether the missiles disabled the tanks. "To the best of my understanding, they (Hezbollah) are as well-equipped as any standing unit in the Syrian or Iranian armies," said Eran Lerman, a retired army colonel and now director of the Israel/Middle East office of the American Jewish Committee. "This is not a rat-pack guerrilla, this is an organized militia." Besides the anti-tank missiles, Hezbollah is also known to have a powerful rocket-propelled grenade known as the RPG29. These weapons are also smuggled through Syria, an Israeli security official said, and were previously used by Palestinian militants in Gaza to damage tanks. On Friday, Jane's Defense Weekly, a defense industry magazine, reported that Hezbollah asked Iran for "a constant supply of weapons" to support its operations against Israel. The report cited Western diplomatic sources as saying that Iranian authorities promised Hezbollah a steady supply of weapons "for the next stage of the confrontation." Top Israeli intelligence officials say they have seen Iranian Revolutionary Guard soldiers on the ground with Hezbollah troops. They say that permission to fire Hezbollah's longer-range missiles, such as those could reach Tel Aviv, would likely require Iranian go-ahead. Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed |
Damn. If that's true that's a real balls move by the Iranians. These people need to be crushed, not negotiated with. I hope Israel will stay the course, for all our sake. |
Well I certainely hope the US has promised Israel a "steady supply of weapons". I'm so glad to see someone else in the world with the balls to kill as many terrorist cowards as they can. Fuck them and thier goofy ass twisted fucking beliefs.  Wonder why they haven't added cage armor to the tanks? Wouldn't this help to defeat the warhead? |
oh shit !! anyone know if that can take out one of our tanks ?!
..IF there's a ceasefire, it'll allow Hez to reload with even better stuff from Iran via Syria. This is the inherent problem in this fight: Muslims want Israel wiped out, and yet they're calling for a ceasefire IF Israel gets out of Lebanon first-ain't gonna happen. The UN is trying to get fighting to stop, but it'll only be for a short while at best. In the meantime, Hez gets restocked and it'll be even tougher for Israel. There should be no cessation in fighting. Israel must be allowed to do the job. They're in a serious Catch 22 here...damned by the world if they don't stop, and damned by Hez, Syria and Iran if they do. They cannot win here, so the only real option is to keep on doing what they've been doing. The real problem is that everyone thinks there's a solution...and there's not. I won't be surprised if fighting escalates very soon. Nasrallah sends a missile into Tel Aviv and it'll be Katy-bar-the-door. There's a real possibility that Syria or Iran will have a mis-step here, which opens up another can of worms. By all indications, Hez won't stop fighting anyway other than to restock and reload, so any peace initiative is an absolute joke. HH |
Lumber? Do these guys even know what they're writing down sometimes? |
in uniform? if so iran is dumber than shit and if not how to the izzies know who they saw? edited to remove unneeded F bomb, I need to clean up my language a bit |
Yeah right, if you believe that I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell. |
I have seen photos of tanks that have had lumber, sandbags etc... added to the exterior to beef up the armor. The Izzys probably add some RR ties or similar size wood beams to the frontal armor. |
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If they bomb, they'd better use MOABs. Hisb'allah is dug in. I went to the Hisb'allah website and saw pics of rocket trucks that are just a pickup with 8 tubes on it. They shoot and run from the road, they aren't emplaced. As soon as the last rocket goes off, they're gone. Hard to counter-battery something like that. |
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Wow, I didn't know this weapon system existed. Is this the return of the 3.5in Bazooka? RPG29 
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They could be some of the Toads we sold to Iran many years ago. I don't know that I would call them mechanically reliable at this point. |
The ones shown in the pix from a raid were MFG Date 2001. 
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I think it means when F-16's start falling out of the sky.... Iran to supply Hezbollah with surface-to-air missiles Fri Aug 4, 11:28 AM ET Link Iran will supply Hezbollah with surface-to-air missile systems in the coming months, boosting the guerrillas' defences against Israeli aircraft, according to a report by specialist magazine Jane's Defence Weekly, citing unnamed Western diplomatic sources. In a meeting, held late last month, the Lebanese Shiite Muslim militia called on Tehran to "accelerate and extend the scope of weapon shipments from Iran to the Islamic Resistance, particularly advanced missiles against ground and air targets." Hezbollah's representatives pressed for "an array of more advanced weaponry, including more advanced SAM (surface-to-air missile) systems," Jane's said Friday. "Iranian authorities conveyed a message to the Hezbollah leadership that their forces would continue to receive a steady supply of weapons systems,"it added. "The details coming from the meeting reveal that they are about ensuring a constant supply of weapons to support Islamic Resistance operations against Israel," said Robin Hughes, the magazine's Middle East Editor. "We are told the latest meeting was attended by senior representatives of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps' Qods force which is responsible for training and logistic support for Iranian-backed insurgent groups." According to Jane's Defence Weekly, Iranian authorities have supplied the militia with Iranian-made Noor radar-guided anti-ship cruise missiles and Chinese QW-1 (Vanguard) shoulder-launched SAMs. Russian-made SAMs will reportedly be supplied at a later date. Hezbollah has been locked in a more than three-week long deadly conflict against Israel since it kidnapped two Israeli soldiers and killed eight others on July 12. Israel has carried out a widespread bombing campaign of southern Lebanon, where Hezbollah is based, and Hezbollah has fired rockets into northern Israel. A Hezbollah anti-ship missile also damaged an Israeli corvette off the Lebanese coast in the early days of the conflict, killing four sailors. Israel said the missile was Iranian-built but Tehran denied involvement. Copyright © 2006 Agence France Presse. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AFP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of Agence France Presse. Copyright © 2006 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. |
No. AT-13 Metis-M Link The Russians characterize the AT-7 ATGM complex as light or manportable (5-20 kg), permitting long-distance carry by dismounted infantry. Although the AT-13 complex slightly exceeds 20 kg, it is close enough to fit into the category. Guidance elevation has a 15° span. Because the module is small and can be quickly corrected by shifting, elevation and field of view are operationally unlimited, and permit use against hovering or stationary helicopters. The Russian 1PN86V/Mulat-115 thermal sight is available for use on the launcher, with detection at 3,200 meters and recognition beyond the missile's 1,500 meter range. Field of view is 4.6°. Specifications Name AT-7/Saxhorn AT-13 Alternative Designations Metis Metis-M (often mislabeled Metis-2) Date of Introduction 1978 1992 Proliferation At least 5 countries Missile Weight (kg) 6.3 (in tube) 13.8 (in tube) Warhead Type Shaped Charge (HEAT) Tandem Shaped Charge (HEAT) Armor Penetration (mm) 460 1,000/900 behind ERA Minimum/Maximum Range (m) 40/1,000 80/1500 Probability of Hit (%) 90 90 Average Velocity (m/s) 180 287 Time of Flight to Max Range (sec) 6.2 8 Launcher Designations 9P151 Firing Post Crew 2 Primary mount Ground mount on tripod Alternate mounts Shoulder for launch, UAZ-469 pintel mount Weight Overall, Excluding Missile (kg) 10.2 Length Overall in Firing Position (m) 0.78 with AT-7/Metis 0.98 with AT-13/Metis-M Height Overall In Firing Position (m) 0.72 with AT-7/Metis Width Overall In Firing Position (m) INA Launcher Name 9P151 Firing Post Launch Method Tube Elevation (°) -5/+10 Rate of Launch (missiles/min) 3-5, depending on range Reaction Time (sec) INA Emplacement Time (min) 0.20 Displacement Time (min) 0.33 Ready/Stowed Missiles 4/0 (1 on launcher ) FIRE CONTROL Name 9S816 Guidance system Guidance SACLOS Command Link Wire Beacon Type INA Tracker Type IR Susceptible To Countermeasures EO jammers, smoke, counterfire Counter-countermeasures INA Rangefinder Frequency INA Counter-countermeasures INA Gunner Field of View (°) INA Acquisition Range (m) INA Night Sights Available 
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Iran makes a reversed engineered version of the TOW missile. Its Iranian made. The TOW's we sold Iran are long past their shelf-life.
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Read revalations etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/RsvReve.html |
How does the infliction of battle damage to a couple of tanks equal 'neutralizing'? I am sure Israel wishes that these high-end missles weren't in Hesbullah's hands and I am positive that they mourn the death of even a single soldier; but the hezzies aren't exactly stopping (let alone 'neutralizing') the freedom of manuever of the IDF. It is a hard fight and those cause casualties. The best armies in the world will still take their hits from time to time. How many M1 Abrams were lost in a couple of days in Baghdad a few years ago? |
Probably not much. Most modern AT weapons use tandem or top attack warheads to deal with reactive or slat/standoff armor. If they have Kornets, those are roughly eqivalent to tow2's (tandem warhead version A?) except that they are laser guided (syrians have kornets). The metis-M is tandem warhead but much more portable, its wire guided like the tow and can get through about 3ft of armor. |
OIL FOR FOOD.... |
They are not meant for direct protection. Like the RPG cages on the Strykers, they are there to cause premature detonations. Which on shaped charges can make a big difference. |
TOW is our only long-range surface-based ATGM system... It can damage an Abrams (few, if any, surface ATGMs can make a for-sure kill), however it is a line-of-sight weapon (being Optically controlled), which is guided by a wire link back to the launcher. If the launcher is destroyed the missile will miss. That, combined with a long (by ground combat standards) time-in-flight and a range that is still within main-gun range for the tank makes ATGMs most effective when used in an ambush situation... If you fire from your max range, and the crew sees you launch, you'll get hit before your weapon hits the tank... Up close, the balance changes.... But that requires you to GET close without being detected by the tank crew or any of the tank's sensor systems (thermal, etc).... |
MOAB only works for exposed stationary targets.... Not very effective on running vehicles... For those, you need light air (SDB, Maverick, Hellfire, or aircraft gunnery)... |
You're telling me if I fire at maximum range and the tank crew sees me, they can set up, traverse, target, fire and kill me ebfore the missile gets to the tank?! |
Very possibly, YES... At least with a modern tank like the Abrams or Merk, with auto range and lead computation. These missiles have a LONG time in flight... 30-60sec, generally... During that time the launch platform must remain ABSOLUTELY stationary and must manually/optically guide the missile to the target. If the wire breaks, the missile will miss. If the tank blows up the launcher, the missile will miss. If the tank can obscure itself from view (back down behind a hill, use smoke, etc) the missile will miss... Further, TOW-class missiles are generally NOT top attack capable. (This applies to long-range heavy ATGMs, not the 1km and under class) Shorter ranged, more advanced missiles like the Javelin & Spike are 'fire and forget' and do not suffer from these limitiations (and also have 'top attack' profiles available). But again, you have to get in range to fire without being killed by the tank, and unless you are targeting a lone tank (no wingmen) you have to kill the other 1 to 3 tanks too before they find you.... |
I think its that whole IDF ubermensch thing being shatterd. And the media dogpiling on that. |
Well this of course excludes fire and forget ATGMS which use optical sensors. Also many ATGM's are not wire guided at this point. The kornet and others are laser guided, others are radio guided. And the latest generation as you mention like the SPike and Javelin are fire and forget. Hell, with a spike you can sit behind a hill... |
The missiles we are discussing (TOW, AT-7, AT-13), however, ARE wire guided.... And the laser-guided missiles have the same vulnerability - except they let you know when you're being targeted if your tank has laser-warning sensors installed.... I mentioned the fire-and-forget weapons in the end, but the vast majority of these are light/short-range manpack weapons like Javelin.... While effective if launched, the crew has to survive long enough to launch, and to launch multople times if the expect to survive the engagement..... |
it's ok they're past their shelf life, they apparently served their purpose of giving the Iranians something ot use to reverse engineer from we need to stop supplying shit holes with weapons even if they are the enemy of an enemy at the time we do it |