Posted: 7/25/2006 2:59:40 PM EDT
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I am a networking guy, I work as a network admin. I would consider myself a "jack of all trades" except I know little to no "programming". I am a very experienced web designer, but do not know asp/.net/java/etc so there is still a side to web design I am not proficient at. Point is, I'm getting tired of network administration and supporting end users. I guess I am fairly jaded, and get tired of being the "go to guy" when people are too f*cking stupid to do their own jobs and wants someone with half a brain to make up for their short comings. If it plugs into a wall, I'm expected to hold their hands through it. I have 2.5 years OTJ experience, went to college, etc. I kind of want to get into programming and eventually get a new job solely doing programming and stop supporting end users for the most part. I know asp/asp.net/sql/etc is where it's "at" right now, but I want some recommendations from programmers where to start learning, to "create a foundation" per se. I don't want to go back to college, and have always been much better and more efficient at teaching myself and learning by doing. What path should I take, and what books should I use to teach myself. Not only am I tired of doing networking/support, but I'd say 66% of the jobs I see listed in Kansas City are for programmers, and they pay EXCEPTIONAL. People with 2-3 years experience are getting $35-45 easily. Thanks! |
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Problem: As a former administrator, you'll find your developer cow-orkers (that's not a typo) suddenly tapping you for admin help. Moving from administraton to development is kind of like moving from porn star to fluffer. It's not really a move up, unless you have a passion for the work. <-- Just my burnt-out experience. |
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I'll make a quick post then then come back later with details. First $35k to $40k for 2 to 3 years of programming is not exceptional, it's not even good, it's entry level. Second you are right that ASP/.NET/SQL is where it at. Microsoft is always going to be in business and it will always pay good. Sure java/php/cold fusion and all that other nonsense is out there and the experts at it can make really good money but you have to be that expert and you have to find that top end job that is looking for it. Microsoft jobs are everywhere. Now as far as "getting away from end users".  You never get away from them, in fact you have to deal with them even more...but it's on a different level. Instead of "I can't get my outlook to work" for the 50th time, you have to deal with end users that want a program and a database but they aren't sure what they want it to do...but they need it by the end of the month.  You build something you think they will need demo it to them and they love it, then they come back and say oh can we have X, Y, and Z added to it? You say sure. They say, oh but we still need it by the end of the month. 
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I'd keep my net admin skills on the DL so none of my coworkers would come to me for support ;) Also, there are a lot of jobs out there that REQUIRE skills in networking AND programming such as SQL and ASP. If anything, I could at least expand the range of jobs I am qualified for, and increase my pay significantly. Alot of it could be the company I work for too. But, in the limited programming I have done, I've enjoyed it very much. I also enjoy web design very much and wouldn't mind doing that, but today's web technology requires a web designer to be able to create websites that are highly interactive with a database back end. |
The entry level jobs I've seen here are mid $40k's per year at least. But I digress. I know I won't get away from "support" but I'd like to get away from changing toner for people and finding that clicky thingy that they use to work that doo dad so that their computer will do this thing for them. |
| As a developer, you will probably answer to more people than you do now. Plus nobody is ever satisfied imo. The prices you mention are not that "great". 3yrs working so far and I'm making more. The problem is that you will be competing for positions that people have degrees in and those that have actual experience. As stated above, you will definately be taking a step down. |
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What kind of programming do you want to do? Since you are already doing web design, maybe you should start with web apps? That seems to be what everyone is doing today anyway. You can start by adding JavaScript to your HTML pages. You can then look at scripting dynamic web pages, maybe with Perl or PHP. Then Java and Ruby. A formal CS program is the best way to go. At a minimum, take everything you can at the junior college level or at the university extension. I think one's options are more limited today than they used to be as far as programming goes. A lot of the work is going overseas and it's difficult to be taken seriously without some sort of engineering degree. Have you considered DBA? The pay is typically better than programming and there is more long-term job security. One doesn’t typically need a CS degree to be a DBA, but like everything technical, it helps to have it. If you’re interested in teaching yourself, I can recommend a number of books to get you started. |
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I started out on the admin side of things, doing tech support then moving up to server admin. I did this while going to college for programming and slowly switched over to programming. Network admin is a lot different than programming. You have to have the mindset and patience for programming or it's not going to work for you. You have to be able to sit at a computer, imagine what the end user wants, figure out how they would use it as a non-techical end user, and then best design and program to not only function but to catch the errors the non-technical user will make and point them back the right direction. I used to sit down with a beginning book from WROX publishers and learn whatever programming subject it was. That is until I got to .NET. I've looked at books, I've taken classes, I've researched it on the net for years and I'm just now getting comfortable with it. With ASP I was able to pick it and run with it quick. So if you are wanting to start somewhere just to see if you like it that is what I would recommend. Start with the basic ASP pages using VBScript and go from there. Skip all the .NET stuff until you decide this is something you want to do. If you like the admin side of things but hate dealing with "end users" then what I really recommend is you look into getting your own networking certificates and look for a better job as an network admin. As an admin you shouldn't be dealing with the day to day calls of the non-technical people who can't figure out why their mouse doesn't work after they unplugged it and plugged it back in or why their network cable doesn't fit in the phone jack. Those jobs are for the computer techs. If your current job is making you do that type of work then they are not treating you as an admin. A true network admin should make $60k to $100k with no problem so the fact that you are impressed with $35k says that you are way under paid for what you are doing. Heck even the admins at the college I went to 10 years ago were making more than $35k with no certificates and they were getting free classes on top of it. If you have more questions ask. |
Mostly business CRUD apps are going to India. There are still plenty of jobs in the US. But I think today one is definitely handicapped if they lack a CS or related engineering degree. Without the degree, I would seriously look at other areas, such as DBA and network admin (which the OP hates). |
Well I'm just looking for advice from others, I love being in technology but am slowly disliking what I do more and more. My company is "small" which has some benefits, but definately MORE drawbacks. We have ~250 people and probably 75% of that are factory workers. There are 2 people in the IT department. Me, and my boss, the "IS Manager". So, being as there are only two people, I end up doing anything from the most simple bullshit end user work all the way up to doing an NT to 2003 domain migration and getting new servers up in a couple of days when another one of our piece of crap servers dies. The owner is old and German, and looks at the IT department as a burden more than an asset. He doesn't want to spend ANY money on the IT department, yet will throw it around like nothing for other bullshit. Honestly, you're probably thinking if I just found another job doing "networking" at another company I'd be fine - but I won't, I don't think. I'm definatley not "impressed" by $35k. That's about what I make now, which is loooow for having been doing this for 2.5 years with a degree and some certifications. But I see entry programming jobs for low to mid 40's, and jobs wanting 2-3 years experience making 60-80k a year. While getting out of networking right now may only be a lateral move, I feel that 2-3+ years down the road it would have alot more potential for growth and money. |
A good DBA does it all, including database design in collaboration with the project manager, designers, and programmers. Programmers typically are not great as database designers, and are not as up on the technical nuances associated with achieving optimal database performance. Issues such as when too cluster, when not to, the design of indices, relations, etc., are often the realm of the DBA. DBAs often write stored procedures and are experts on the dialect of SQL supported by the database. They are also in charge of replication and tons of scripting. So, they are programmers at some level. I'll tell you this: An experienced Oracle DBA can make a lot of money. $120K is common in the SF Bay Area. Some make up to $150k. |
It all depends on how big the company is. Most places can't afford to hire someone just to do databases. Where I work now the programmers have always done the databases and stored procedures. As you pointed out this doesn't always give us the best databases. But the best most optimized database doesn't always give you the best database to program against either. At that point it becomes a trade off in how much ineffeciency can the server handle to speed up the programming. We have clustered servers, non-clustered servers, know all about indexes, relationships, keys...ect. It's just required for how my current job works. Another job I had at a software company could afford to have their own DBA and backup DBA who handled all that. I would say most programming jobs happen inside the IT department of a regular business and not inside the structred environment of a software company. Like you said someone who is a good DBA and only a DBA can make good money. A background in networking is definately a plus with programming. So it knowing how to admin and program a SQL server. If you have real work experience doing this and can pick up the programming on your own I don't see you having any problems getting a job. If you have any interest in moving I know the place that I work here in Kentucky will be hiring another programmer soon. I'm sure we are going to be looking for someone with Active Reports and Crystal Reports experience as well as some ASP/SQL programming experience. Who we end up with all depends on who applies. |
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I was a nine year Java/J2EE/Struts guy and I made a switch to ASP.NET/C# & SQL Server last year and I'm absolutely loving it! I also went to Microsoft's TechEd06 last month and I came back EXTREMELY impressed with the development tools and systems like Dynamics CRM 3.0. Microsoft definitely has their shit together and I'm very happy that I took the position I did and that I'm able to develop the systems I'm working on now. By the way, Atlas is going to be a seriously powerful tool and I'm already using the beta version to build an in-house app. That said, if your a systems guy and know AD then I would look at getting into Dynamics CRM. The hardest part about it (at least for me) is all the AD stuff. CRM is pretty hot right now but there's not a lot of actual coding going on unless you need to write some client-side JavaScript or really need to do some server-side coding but that's a topic in and of itself. Check it out, it might be right up your alley and it's definitely going to be in very high demand in the future. |
This book is a later edition of what I used to get started. The way the book is laid out and the examples just worked for me and made it really easy to learn. www.amazon.com/gp/product/0764543636/sr=8-5/qid=1153870991/ref=sr_1_5/002-3154994-9100004?ie=UTF8  Filling an important spot in the Wrox Programmer to Programmer series, Beginning Active Server Pages 3.0 is an excellent introduction to the new version of ASP released for the Windows 2000 platform. This guide expects no previous ASP knowledge or even previous Web development experience. Its friendly style makes this book welcome reading at all skill levels. The material is carefully presented to avoid losing readers who are totally new to ASP programming, yet it still provides impressive technical coverage, beginning with the very basic concepts behind ASP programming and moving forward to advanced coding techniques. As each topic is presented, relevant screen shots and useful code snippets under the heading "How It Works" complement the text. The chapters also include step-by-step exercises to familiarize you with new techniques and tools. An extensive case study application takes you through the entire development process as well. If you're interested in Web coding Microsoft-style, this is the right place to start. |
Some are contract, some are not. I look at careerbuilder every day looking for new jobs, and researching what "other" jobs pay. That seems pretty typical with a few years experience. |
Consider technical sales, too. That is, if you have a good, sociable personality and not a typical techie personality where you want to sit in a dark corner with just your switches, routers, PCs and wiring. Finding people who are good technically and also good personality wise is HARD and they (I am one) are in high demand and well compensated. |
Where I work, they ship Indians over here. 
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You know, I've thought about sales, but I have to be honest with myself (and everyone else) and say that while I am a nice guy, I am cool, quiet, and calculating, and probably don't have the personna needed to be a successful salesman. I'd say I lean more to the guy "in the corner with his routers" than a salesman 
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I worked as a developer, then a network admin, then a developer. Then, I got burnt out and went to medical school. The Industry will offer you no end of headaches. The grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side, so by all means train and learn at home, but just don't have expectations too high. |
How's your math? If you are up to studying CS, start here. Discrete Mathematics and Its Applications Introduction to Algorithms, Second Edition If you prefer C++ for learning algorithms, you can substitute this book. Algorithms in C++, Parts 1-4: Fundamentals, Data Structure, Sorting, Searching (3rd Edition) Computer Organization and Design: The Hardware/Software Interface, Third Edition Those books will provide a good foundation. You should also look at OOP. Many of the OO language books include OOP, so you might not need a dedicated OOP book. If you want an OOP book, here are two of the best. Object-Oriented Software Construction Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software and/or Head First Design Patterns As far as languages, I think Java is the most popular business language today. With Servlets, JSP, and other technologies, Java is also very popular for web apps. You can focus on Java alone and never have a difficult time funding a job, BUT I think it pays to learn C and/or C++ because they force programming discipline WRT memory management and data access. Also, consider scripting languages such as Perl and PHP, and Ruby. Also the .NET languages with C# being my first choice. The two main OS worlds today are Windows and Linux, as you probably know. The programming tools that address each OS overlap some, but not a lot. Well, the languages do, but not the IDEs and various libraries we commonly use. So, you need to make a decision as to which direction you want to take. If it’s Windows, then you should probably focus on .NET and Java. If it’s Linux, I would say Java, PHP, and Perl, as well as, the various libraries available via Apache and other open source projects. One thing about .NET, is it’s all right there out of the box, which make programming very accessible. Hell, you can download the Visual Studio Express Editions for free. More installations and tweaking is involved in Linux land, but it’s not insurmountable. Anyway, the focus was books, right? 
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Yeah, I've already done that, I have a book (might be outdated) that teaches VB.net for database programming and used Visual Studio Express. The M$ tutorials that come with it are surprisingly informative. |
Don't know where you work, but, apples-to-apples, IS staff is paid MUCH lower than software engineering. DBAs and true network engineers are the only exception that I have seen. eta: Reading is fundemental...I see that the OP is a network engineer. In that case, I would stick with what you've got. You'll have to claw your way up the chain again if you move to development and you would not be able to use most of your existing experience. What about trying to find a network architect position or the like? |
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Network ADMINISTRATOR. I wouldn't consider myself an engineer after reading the skills and experience required for many engineering positions. IMO an network engineer requires an EXCEPTIONAL level of knowledge for high level networking technologies spanning many locations. Maybe my definition is wrong
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| Another option is to move into networking software/hardware QA. In a previous life, I worked as a software engineer at Nortel Networks. Our product line started out as simple VPN device on the bottom end to a major core router at the top end. Our best QA engineers came from the ranks of network admins since they knew how to use these devices in the real world. |
Most of the network engineers I know have a BSCS or BSCE and many have an MSCE. These guys design networking hardware and software. They don't maintain networks. Network admin is still a good job. It's difficult to outsource and it's better than desktop support. |
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After working as a programmer on and off for 35 years, the biggest problem I've found is that you end-up working for idiots that have no idea what you do. Even if you're a great programmer, they don't appreciate it since they don't understand it. I had a customer fire us last week after I told him we couldn't recreate his 400,000 line text-based terminal program written in Fortran to a web-based system written in PHP in six weeks with two programmers for less than $10,000. The guy accused me of trying to rip him off. He's already told several of my customers that. Even if you can convert 1,000 lines a day, it will take you 400 days/3,200 man hours of work to convert. Stay in networking. You don't want to deal with this idiocy. So if you do find a job, your boss or management will constantly be mad at you since you won't be able to provide what they need since they're not smart enough to be able to tell you what they need. You will have to get good at pulling information out of people that don't think logically and don't want to answer questions. A year ago I completed a software project in about two months that the investor previously had 40 people working on for a year without results. The difference was I hounded the guy for hours a day with questions about what he wanted, and I created prototypes of screens for him to approve before writing the first line of code or designing the first database. Then I ran the screens by some of the employees that were actually going to use it and added what the other guy had forgotten to take into account. I'm very proud of myself for getting more done in two months than 40 guys did in a year. Finally, most people fear what they don't understand so you'll have a boss or owner's constant paranoia. I've seen good programmers fired because their employer wasn't smart enough to understand them, and I've seen a lot of really bad programmers keep their job because their boss feels more comfortable with an underling that's not so bright. And, the $35k you see in the ad will probably turn into $25k after the interview. The HR people always exaggerate. They'll find some excuse to offer you much less money. Honestly, I'd offer you less than what I was advertising since (I assume) you don't have any experience or a degree in programming. We pay less than that, but of course we end-up with terrible programmers.z |
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Programming is fun... until you realize that everything you're going to write is for that same 'end user'. I would encourage anyone to learn programming because it can make other tasks much simpler by automating things. Full-time dedicated programmers, however, have to deal with the same company BS and dumb end user requests though. It can be frustrating because these people have no idea how programming works nor the talent it takes to do some things. Thus they don't know the limitations, everything is just a diagram to them with a bunch of clouds in between. You get to figure out that stuff. Can't be avoided because that's the business model we work in. To give you an idea, I'd rather be doing network or UNIX administration myself.
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Microsoft has some free versions of the Visual Studio development environments. Might be a good way to get up to speed on .NET. msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/ The hardest part to programming is not so much writing code, it's figuring out what the users want and then trying to translate that into a meaningful, easy-to-use application. |
| It's not JUST the "end user" aspect alone that has caused me to look into other aspects of IT (programming) it's also job availability, rate of pay, etc. There is probably 2-3 programming jobs where I live for every networking job I see. Makes the networking jobs that much harder to get as there's more competition. |