Posted: 6/1/2006 5:20:00 PM EDT
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Had my annual inspection on my AC units in my house done today. I have a rather large house so it has two AC systems. The entire system is about 13 years old. The evaporator coils on one of the units in the attic was leaking freon all over the place. The other unit required some kind of electronic widget/detector which beeps like crazy when it detects a freon leak. The man suggested replacing the coils in both units due to the leaks and the fact they are 13 years old. I don't know squat about air conditioning but somebody once told me parts for something like this was about $200 per unit - I don't know if that is even close to being fact. The man doing the inspection said replacing the coils in both units would cost about $3100.00 including labor so I am wondering if this is a decent quote or can it be done for significantly less. He did mention that a year ago the job would have cost about $1500 but due to some new regs or something or to be compatible with the outside condenser units (should they ever have to be replaced) the newer style coils are now at a much higher cost. So in the absence of any first-hand knowledge at all on my part, should I get a second quote or opinion on this one or just run with it? I do trust the guy but damn, three grand is TON of money for me. |
| Get several quotes on replacing coils. I worked as a service manager for an electrical/HVAC contractor and if the mechanic is working on commission he could be trying to oversell the job. I quit that company because of these types of business practices. If he wants to quote "new regulations" ... ask to see them. |
If you are going to spend that much might as well splurge and replace both systems with higher seer units. They will save you a bit on your electric bill and if the units you have now are that old, they are going to start breaking down and needing parts / $ervice calls more often. |
| Back this Trane up. First and foremost, did this guy even attempt to repair the leak? There are'nt too many leaks that can't be repaired by a qualified technician. If the leak is in the tube sheet then you may be screwed but even some of those can be repaired. I'd ask a few more questions before I started replacing anything. I don't know about Texas but up here in MI the residential techs are mostly hacks. Beware! and goodluck. |
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Different cities , different prices . The job is worth $1500.00 per coil . If anybody thinks it isn't , then try D I Y . Lots of specialized tools , & the knowledge to do the job. And, let's not forget the working conditions. Sweat dripping in your eyes, insulation itching the shit out of you, and don't forget breathing all that dust. Not to mention the homeowner over your shoulder saying, "How much longer". And to those that suggest maybe a repair, I've seen too many leak. You fix one hole, and then therer's another and so on. These things do have a life expectancy, ten years probably max. If you do change a coil, make sure you put an expansion valve coil. An expansion valve enhances your SEER value. |
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The technician is the owner and does his own work along with his son. He has been coming to my house and doing inspections for about 6 years. The last two years he said that the units were living on borrowed time. He stated both units are leaking at the plate ("tube sheet" I guess) where the tubes go in and are not repairable. For what it's worth, the electric sensor gizmo did not go off until he got into the back area where the plate is located on both units, I was watching while he did this. As mentioned, there are two systems, one is a bit larger than the other. I think he said the big one was a 10 SEER, it has the bigger leak with oil all over the tubes. He filled both systems with freon before leaving, saying that the big one was about empty - cost on that was $148 for 8 pounds of R-22. He quoted a 5 ton cooling coil at $1900 and 3 ton cooling cool at $1200 for a total of $3100. Am not positive on the regulations thing - all he said was that new coils cost more to be compatible with the newer outside condenser units that sell now days and I think mentioned some kind of industry code or something. Is this a freon type or availability thing? Any ideas on what two new, complete systems would or should cost? The house is about 3250 sq feet. I'm tempted to replace both attic units entirely as suggested here but that's gonna make a HUGE dent in my gun fund. Thanks for the help. Mike. |
| Absolutely. Change your return air filters monthly. The blue ones are good. The least restrictive the better. Maybe vacumm around your T-stat every once in a while. Service Tech every Fall for annual check-up. Turn off your a/c when mowing or weedeating and stay well away from it. Keep dogs and critters away, as well. |
| Put it to you this way. An evaporator coil costs between 100 and 150 depending on size. Where I used to work we charged around 600 to replace a coil. Other places will do it for less. I don't doubt that your coils may be leaking but 3100 is ass rape for the replacement of two coils. I spent 10 years at an hvac firm. Get a qoute from some one else. |
| i think the quote for replacing two coils is about on par if you consider the price of copper and metals and how they have jumped. but i agree, if your going to spend that amount of money to replace coils, you should replace the whole system(s). On the other hand, about the only leak that cannot be repaired is a leak in the actual coil (aluminum part). I repair leaks all the time on equipment and have yet to condem a coil for leaks. |
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As long as HVAC advice is being dispensed in this thread.... I have a 2 year old Trane AC (and furnace). As long as it is working, is there any yearly maintenance I should be performing? Absolutely. Change your return air filters monthly. The blue ones are good. The least restrictive the better. Maybe vacumm around your T-stat every once in a while. Service Tech every Fall for annual check-up. Turn off your a/c when mowing or weedeating and stay well away from it. Keep dogs and critters away, as well. |
Come on dude. A coil should never go for 1500 per coil. That is just out right rape and you know it. The cost less than 150 and you want to charge somone 1500 to put it in? By all means tell me the name of your business so I can avoid it like the plague. |
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What part of Texas? $3100 sounds a little steep, but you have to remember this guy has overhead, paid help and all the stuff that goes along with owning a company. A/C companies roughly double the cost of parts, so he may be paying roughly $1500 for the new coils. Labor is what kicks your ass. Labor fees run $65.00 to $ 95.00 per hour for service calls. Get a second and third opinion. Tell them you want a total cost. If they are lower, give your guy the option to drop his price. TG (27 years A/C experience in Texas) 
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a typical 3-5 ton coil is now over $250, then add about a 15-30% mark up on top of that. then they have to include the fee for the truck (gas is not really that cheap) that gets bad gas mileage carrying a ton of tools. they then have to pull all the gas out, remove the old coil, put the new coil in, pull a vaccum on the system and then charge it. that takes well over 4 hours, plus all the specialized tools used. the $1500 per coil is just making some profit and covering costs. |
Carrier coils go for 150 for 5 ton in Atlanta all day from mingledorffs the wholesaler. 3100 for two coils is ass rape. |
The new coils he is talking about is for 410A, the new refrigerant that is replacing R-22 in a few years. 410A runs at 1.6 times the pressures that R-22 does (if r-22 runs at 70psi 70 X 1.6= 112psi for r410A) so the coil needs to be built stouter for the tubing to handle the extra pressure. the only reason that you would need these coils is if you were replacing the whole system, other wise the cheaper r-22 coils are still available. If you do decide to replace coils/system, make sure to tell him you want to keep the old coils he takes out, this could be taken to the scrap yard and recoup a couple hundred dollars. |
Dude, I'm sorry but you are not going to get a couple of hundred dollars for scrap coils. |
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[Quote} Come on dude. A coil should never go for 1500 per coil. That is just out right rape and you know it. The cost less than 150 and you want to charge somone 1500 to put it in? By all means tell me the name of your business so I can avoid it like the plague. No problem. Your $150.00 guess is way off on the coil. Not even close. How about my million dollar general liability insurance or my quarter million dollar commercial truck insurance? How about my state license fees? The list goes on and on. You do not have a clue of what is involved in having your own business. You have to pay the bills and have money left over for food. Refrigerant prices have tripled, copper prices have quadrupled in the last month. Now tell me where my profit is? Oh, let's not forget your city permits. If you want to use bootleggers, have at it. When your house burns down, and your insurance adjuster would like to speak to the A/C license holder and their insurance adjuster. Then my friend you are SOL. Yea, you're really saving money now. That is why my coil is worth $1500.00. But, it's your home, do what you feel comfortable with. Good luck. Do some more research. You're doing good. |
+1 Do you feel safe letting an uninsured "technician" use a oxyacetelyne torch in your house without insurance to save a little money? |
NO. SOMETHING IS WRONG THERE. The reason SYSTEMS in general went up is because more and more are being sold with "Puron (r410a)" instead of "Freon (r22)" and b/c of gov't mandates to slow the production of older r22 systems which will raise the price ogf parts SOME over the next few years. Puron systems are environmentally more friendly to the ozone, etc, but they also run at a much higher pressure. It does cost more to produce the coils, because they have to stand higher pressurization and testing. HOWEVER, it's BULLSHIT to say the cost went from 200 to 1500 in one year for a coil. Besides, your system sounds like it's still the r22 system since it's 13 years old, so why is the cost going up for a r22 coil (an older model) by THAT MUCH? And definitely not by a factor of SEVEN in one year. It sounds like he's selling you a whole new A/C system which would consists of the following An indoor coil and an outdoor coil, a compressor and an air handler for that kind of money. Electronic widget to yell when it detects a leak sounds like BS, unless there's a regulation by your state. I know of no such national regulation. I had a new system installed this year and it had a leak from the factory and it didn't beep. It just wouldn't cool anything. Bottom line, I think you need to get a second opinion. However, your system is 13 years old, so I wouldn't spend 3K just to get two coils replaced when you can get another A/C unit for 4-4.5K from Trane, Carrier or another well known manufacturer. BTW, after house and car, HVAC is the third most expensive purchase in the average person's life. If you want another opinion, pose your question on: www.hvac-talk.com Lot of experts there to set you straight. |
Nope, fraid not. See you are coming from a dude with a van mentality. We competed with people like you all the time. Get people working for you and a warehouse and buy in bulk and you spread your costs out. At 1500 per coil 3100 per two it is no wonder you have to pass on all the costs to the two jobs you get a year. 150 is the current price in Atlanta for carrier and Allstyle is cheaper. Also, you know as well as I do no one gets a permit for coil replacement. And a fire resulting from a new coil? Yeah maybe if I am waving the torch around and dancing like an idiot. You pump the freon into the outside unit if you can, if not suck it out, cut the liquid line and the suction line, take the screws out of the old coil, remove. If you have to cut some panning metal for new one then do it. If not, put it on and sweat the lines and you are done. It's not that hard, don't make it out like it is surgeory cause you know it is not. now if you have to put in a new plenum and run some new duct then that is different but we are talking a straight coil change out. |
Absolute BS vombismarck45J. All that crap you mentioned doesn't inflate the price up to $1500. That's just rape, end of story. (kinda like that $600 Carrier "Infinity" thermostat). |
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Dude, Mingledorff's is the only carrier wholesaler in GA. They only sell to you if you have a license. You can see to them all you want you will just get laughed at. I've replaced my share in the 10 years I worked in HVAC. |
I guess someone let the secret handshake out. And now you guys know it. This job shouldn't be more than $75.00 start to finish. Parts, labor, everything, tax, title out the door. I'm just an opportunist only here for the money. Now you guys are on to me. I guess I wandered into this rocket science website by accident. Please forgive me. For my jig is up. This is me with my tail between my legs. Leaving. Bye, Bye. (Curses, Foiled again). |
Well, if you Knew the overhead of running a legitimate business you would understand the price. have to pay for gasoline, tools, office support people to dispatch/do paperwork/accounting/billing, pay the technician (to be qualified and experienced takes several years), pay for the van, pay for the insurance, pay for a building to run the operations out of, etc (you get the picture) that is a cost of doing business that the customer might never see/understand. the point of being in business is to make a fair profit, and with all these expenses to pay, i see the price he's charging as not outrageous since the cost of doing business has went up considerably since last year. It's like complaining about ammo prices now. well last year it was less than $200 for a 1000 rds. of xm193, but now 230 plus delivery. the cost of metals, gasoline and other things have risen considerably in the last year. |
Yup. Ain't it funny many of the HVAC chat forums have the rule no costing or money talk allowed? Your secret is out used car salesman. |
well, if you think it's soooooo easy and anyone can do it, don't call a service man and do all your own maintaince. let's see how long you stay cool. like vombismarck45J i'm ousted, someone found out our terrible secret of how we like to screw over people for the hell of it. Good luck Mike_48 with your coil problems, and do get a second opinion and quote so we can find out if he was really giving you an ass raping. |
A coil is a coil is a coil, pal. A thermostat is $100 max. Nothing but foolishness and fancy marketing gives you the overhead of $600. I hereby quote you the dealer cost of the lowest and highest Trane R22 coils. Spring 2006 prices. SCV3S02414FCCV - 142.44 TXC065S3HPC - 407.91 Carrier R-22 lowest and highest CARVP1814ATA - 222.05 CNRHP6024ATA - 363.89 And now install for a total of 1500. Yea, keep that secret handshake going.  |
so, tell me since you obviously have access to wholesalers, how long will it take to replace this coil, with the system still half full of refrigerant, and no access in the duct work. give me an estimate on hours it will take, and equipment/tools needed. do you think that this can be accomplished in less than 4 hours? and if you think he is ass raping the customer, what do you feel is the fair price for the job to be performed? ETA: I'm just a technician for the company i work for, if i have to bid a job on the spot it's pretty easy. Truck charge + est. hour(s) + part price + miscellaneous/consumables fee = price of repair. if were already there on a maintaince contract and find a problem, then we take out the truck fee. in the part of the country where i live, the bid seems on par with what the amount of work to be done is. just like anything, if you can shop around, you probably will get a better price, but i'd rather use the guy that i have been using for six years +, because if the repair/installation has problems, at least you know who the person is/how to contact for a call back. |
so, are you also going to replace the liquid line drier, and pull a vaccum on the system for more than 5 minutes? or would that be raping the customer, you know, acutally doing a repair that will last and prolong the life of the equipment? |
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Running on site service is expensive. Quality work costs even more. For every hour on site I have about 1 hour of support work off site I have to do. That work is not free, it is included in the cost of the job billed to the customer. Running a company truck costs over $100 a day before mileage and gas costs. There are no service techs that turn in 40 bill-able hours a week, so that has to be factored in as well. Look at the job quote for what it is. The tech told you what it will cost to get you up and running, may take an hour or 20, it is still a quote for the job. If you want cheap, hang a window unit out in the breeze. You want it done right, call a pro. |
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Question for the AC techs - When doing a repair or a new install how long do you typically pull a vacuum? Do you sit there watching the pump the whole time, or go to a different job or ... ? Do you check the system pressure after pulling the vacuum? What should it be? When will additional air in the system cause problems? No, I'm not trying to get info to do an unlicensed install on my house or anything, in fact I don't have and don't want AC, I'm just curious. |
Depends on the size of the pump. With a 6 cm you could pull it in 30 minutes. There should be a number of other little things you can do in the mean time. Hook up low voltage wiring, hook up disconnect box, if necessary, hook up line voltage wiring. Give the jobsite a quick cleanup. After the unit is running, you check the pressures. The only way you can check pressures when the unit is a vacumm is with a micron gauge. Pressures depend on ambient temperatures inside and out. Anytime air is in the system, it causes problems. It's noncondensable. Is this a test? Make sure a liquid line drier is installed, also. Did I pass the audition? |
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I appreciate the answers.|
OK, I just found out a friend of mine at the company I work for used to be a HVAC guy and still has his license. He mentioned the Puron 410A issue and also said that prices on coils have really gone up in the area (Dallas - Ft. Worth), maybe more than double. He also said that because of the transition to the 410 stuff, the older R-22 coils are now going up as people don't want to pay the higher prices of the new coils. Without checking, he estimates a 5 ton coil going for 500-600 plus markup and the 3 ton at 350 plus markup. So it looks like coil cost alone could be $1100-1200. I called the guy who quoted the job initially and this does include the newer style coils plus a new plenum with 4-5 baffles to cut off air to specific areas. He will also credit the freon he just put in so my cost would be about $3K out the door including tax. With the new plenum & baffles and tax included, I 'm starting to think that this might not be so outrageous based on comments made by some of you guys. I guess I could ask for the older model coils but if that presents a future potential problem with the outdoor units, I don't want that either. I plan on getting a second estimate on the coils and also see what new units cost. There goes that new PTR91, Springfield XD45 and FAL I wanted. That's another one of my problems, I equate all expenses and household costs with what I could have bought in guns & ammo. |
huh, imagine that, coil prices have gone up since last year almost double...... anyways, if your going to be getting the new higher pressure coils, you really should replace the condensing unit (outside unit). i know it puts a damper on the gun purchases, but hey, you gotta keep all the ammo at a constant temp. right? also remember that by replacing the unit you will probably see around a 30% decrease in your elecrical bills. so you are opening up another avenue for gun purchases. |
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Well I went to HVAC Talk.com and got the number of one of the local Dallas-Ft. Worth HVAC gurus who has a million posts on the board and pops off about his quality and how everyone else is a crook or an idiot. I called and asked him to give me a quote. He was more interested in how I got his name and number and when I told him I lived a whopping 15 miles from his shop he said NO WAY am I coming out there, call someone else. He did not even want to talk with me. Is that normal is this business? So I called two other local places, one never answered and the other will not call me back. This makes me want to start a second career and go to HVAC school after I retire. So I called my original guy back and he said it would be better right now just to replace the coils on each unit and not the whole system. Each attic unit also contains the heater/furnace etc and it would be outrageously expensive to replace everything. So screw it, I'm gonna make the call on Monday but it looks like I'll get the coils done now and maybe the outside units later if they should fail. That may not be the best path but I can't handle the expense of two total system (outside & inside AC + the furnaces) replacements which he said would be 13 THOUSAND freakin' dollars. No-Worries, I believe you are correct, this just might be the 3rd most expensive thing a person has to spend money on. |
hmmm.... the HVAC industry is about customer service, because if you piss off a customer, it only takes one phone call to another company to get rid of the contractor. the only plausable reason for that response is he is sooo busy he can't take anymore work, or he is an internet commando. At least your getting the coils that will handle the new 410A refrigerant, that will at least save you some money in the long run when you do eventually change out the condensers. You can spread out the project over a few years, like this year replace the coils, next year replace the larger condenser and the year after, change the other. Even though it's not the best way to do it, it will have to be done eventually, or you just have to pay for more service calls. |
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Around here a new system (replace everything including outdoor pad, but not the lines), 10 SEER, 3.5 ton system was $2400. Took two guys most of the day to do the job because there was some sheet metal fabrication involved. In the DC area I figure things cost about 30 percent more than the rest of America. GunLvr |
damn, thats really cheap |
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Mike let me bottom line this for you. I installed 3 systems and 2 replacement coils in the last 4 days (we had record setting temps in NY) I am a self employed HVAC tech and know all the in's and out's. The prices you got are way high but NO one has seen the job. Here is the issues though that I have seen NO one here mention that you need to take into consideration.... The .gov regulated the efficiencies of air conditioners last year from 10 SEER to 13 SEER. The deal with the new 13 SEER units (indoor and outdoor) is they are much larger (more surface area easier heat removal) and the new 13 SEER equipment is NOT easily compatible with the old 10 SEER stuff. The cost is also about 20-40% more for the 13 equipment. Now... When you do a evap coil job you have to factor in the following: Refrigerant - remove and recharge it or suck it back to the compressor and reuse it? Filter dryer - Use one anytime you open a refrigeration system to the atmosphere. Sheet metal - You will have to make some metal in the field to accommodate the new (larger) coils, this may get complicated especially in a attic with a horizontal unit. Imagine having to move the entire trunk like and extra 2' to make room? That would include all the heat runs attached to it as well. It can get crazy sometimes. Orifice coil or TXV coil? TXV coils are more efficient but cost more. Condensate - Will it match up or do you need to rebuild it? Labor - Working in a attic will slow you down at least 75%. Small, tight, and hot (just the way I like my women  ) so labor cost will..... go up 75%You can use a 13 SEER indoor coil with a 10 SEER condenser but YOU CAN"T do the opposite. It will burn out a compressor. Worst case scenario you may be looking at $1500 a pop. Best case you should only be looking at $700 maybe $800 each. The next move you should make is have another contractor come out and give you an estimate for all new equipment (everything) and compare prices. Then maybe have a second estimate on replacing just the coils. Good luck and IM me if you have any questions. ETA - If this guy is selling you R-410A coils with a R-22 condenser he is really off his rocker. They are COMPLETELY INCOMPATIABLE. Different pressures, temperatures, metering devices. If your system is 15yrs old I know you have a R-22 system because R-410 didn't exist 10 yrs ago. |