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Posted: 4/4/2006 10:47:32 PM EDT
I read Randy weavers book "The Federal Siege At Ruby Ridge" and I am having an argument with some idiot on another board who says Vicky Weavers fingers were cut off and missing when her body was returned to the family for burial.
Did I miss this in the book as this nut case claims?
It was a while ago I read it and I think I would remember a detail like that.
Anyone know?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 10:54:39 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 10:56:13 PM EDT
The police or whatnot will sometimes remove fingers for fingerprinting. Its not common anymore but they may have doine it as a "fuck you" to Weaver
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 11:01:30 PM EDT
Tag. I want to kow the answer to this too. I've read about the incident, and I'm familiar with it, but this is new to me.


-K
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 11:21:50 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 11:59:00 PM EDT
Nonsense. Fingers are only removed at autopsy when the body is unknown and too mummified to allow identification by regular fingerprinting, and you never remove ALL of them. Usually just a thumb. They are not kept, but returned to the body.
Since the feds already knew who she was, and she didn't have TIME to decompose to that extent, There was no need.

Jsut as an aside, they soak them in Downy fabric softener to bring out the prints.

This is my biggest gripe with the tinfoil crowd. Ruby Ridge etc are big enough atrocities without having to make up stuff out of thin air. Makes us all look like drooling idiots.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 12:01:41 AM EDT
Read that bood and "Ruby Ridge" (which was way better and more informative)and neither mentioned that.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 12:16:35 AM EDT
There is a lot of moonbattery surrounding Ruby Ridge. No innocent parties were involved on any side. That idiot Weaver should have at least negotiated to allow his children out of harm's way, and the feds should have tried giving him a telephone call and asking him to talk to them before going in like Rambo. Same deal with Waco...at least try to talk to them first. Those guys were nuts, but they were probably as rational nuts as you will find and they had children present. The feds probably could have talked some sense into them had they not cranked up the pressure so much so quickly and forced "fight or flight" instincts to engage. Maybe the nuts would have started shooting anyway, but most likely there would be a lot less children dead in any event.

Has anyone noticed that there has been a lot less of this militia stuff going on since Bush was elected/September 11th? What is the deal? Are they being left alone, is anxiety less with Clinton gone, or did they snap to when the attack occurred?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 12:17:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Louie:
There is a lot of moonbattery surrounding Ruby Ridge. No innocent parties were involved on any side. That idiot Weaver should have at least negotiated to allow his children out of harm's way, and the feds should have tried giving him a telephone call and asking him to talk to them before going in like Rambo. Same deal with Waco...at least try to talk to them first. Those guys were nuts, but they were probably as rational nuts as you will find and they had children present. The feds probably could have talked some sense into them had they not cranked up the pressure so much so quickly and forced "fight or flight" instincts to engage. Maybe the nuts would have started shooting anyway, but most likely there would be a lot less children dead in any event.

Has anyone noticed that there has been a lot less of this militia stuff going on since Bush was elected/September 11th? What is the deal? Are they being left alone, is anxiety less with Clinton gone, or did they snap to when the attack occurred?



McVeigh killed more militias than Clinton/Bush
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 12:21:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 12:24:59 AM EDT by Big_Louie]

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:

Originally Posted By Big_Louie:
There is a lot of moonbattery surrounding Ruby Ridge. No innocent parties were involved on any side. That idiot Weaver should have at least negotiated to allow his children out of harm's way, and the feds should have tried giving him a telephone call and asking him to talk to them before going in like Rambo. Same deal with Waco...at least try to talk to them first. Those guys were nuts, but they were probably as rational nuts as you will find and they had children present. The feds probably could have talked some sense into them had they not cranked up the pressure so much so quickly and forced "fight or flight" instincts to engage. Maybe the nuts would have started shooting anyway, but most likely there would be a lot less children dead in any event.

Has anyone noticed that there has been a lot less of this militia stuff going on since Bush was elected/September 11th? What is the deal? Are they being left alone, is anxiety less with Clinton gone, or did they snap to when the attack occurred?



McVeigh killed more militias than Clinton/Bush



Maybe so, but they were going strong until the late 1990s from what I saw. Then sometime after the 2000 election the whole scene just kind of petered out or faded from view. Maybe they are still there, just no one pays any attention anymore. "Bigger fish to fry" mindset or something.

As late as 1999 you could still use the "break for union jack" contact protocol on their radio nets. Stupid stuff.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 12:27:04 AM EDT
McVeigh was an idiot. It makes absolutely no sense to kill 168 random people.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 12:29:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
McVeigh was an idiot. It makes absolutely no sense to kill 168 random people.



No argument there. Fringe elements attract loons that can't make their way in normal society. It is true for any fringe group.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 2:00:52 AM EDT
Militias are still there, just smaller groups of people who know each other better than just letting in strangers. A handfull of militia leaders got in trouble in the later 90's/early 00's.

Where's Strat to chime in....?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:01:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Militias are still there, just smaller groups of people who know each other better than just letting in strangers. A handfull of militia leaders got in trouble in the later 90's/early 00's.

Where's Strat to chime in....?



You mean like that Mark Koernke idiot? What a dingbat....

The militia is pretty active in MI if you believe the members who show up at gun shows.. Personally, I don't see the need to drink beer and target practice with your buddies and call it a militia... What are you going to do, have a 17 member stand in an open field with an Apache? There is no way to stand against a modern, professional military, especially when you let everyone in the world know that you are part of a Militia.

Now, blowing up train tracks in the night by yourself......
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:03:58 AM EDT
Tag.....for Tinfoil Fever.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:08:18 AM EDT
Red deployed for the attention defecit.


Originally Posted By Big_Louie:
There is a lot of moonbattery surrounding Ruby Ridge. No innocent parties were involved on any side. That idiot Weaver should have at least negotiated to allow his children out of harm's way, and the feds should have tried giving him a telephone call and asking him to talk to them before going in like Rambo. Same deal with Waco...at least try to talk to them first. Those guys were nuts, but they were probably as rational nuts as you will find and they had children present. The feds probably could have talked some sense into them had they not cranked up the pressure so much so quickly and forced "fight or flight" instincts to engage. Maybe the nuts would have started shooting anyway, but most likely there would be a lot less children dead in any event.



As I understand the train of events ....

The Weavers were racists with a major distrust of government.
They decided to move out to the middle of nowhere and rough it so they could be left alone.
They started attending events at Aryan Nations.
They weren't on board with Aryan Nations' theology and rhetoric, but they got along with the folks there and intermittently attended picnics and whatnot.
Some alphabet agency was looking to make a criminal case against Aryan Nations.
Said agency approached Randy Weaver to groom him as an informant/mole.
Weaver refuses.
Agency responds with intimidation tactics and thinly veiled threats.
Weaver continues to refuse.
Aforementioned agency began grinding an axe against Weaver for his insolence.
After much investigation, Weaver isn't doing anything illegal.
Agent provacateur gains Weaver's confidence and convinces/badgers him into cutting a shotgun and selling it to him.
Weaver is attempting to comply with the law, measure the barrel, cuts it at the legally mandated 18 inches, but unknowingly violates the OAL of 26 inches.
Thus , Randy Weaver has created and sold an AOW without paying the $200 manufacture tax or the $5 transfer tax.
Weaver then compounds the gravity of his situation by ignoring all legal proceedings taking place against him.
Standoff eventually ensues.

Now finally the point:
From the outside, watching the standoff on TV it seems obvious that they should send children running out to safety.
From Weaver's position, in every previous dealing with these people they've done their best to fuck him over and have a history of threatening him and attempting to use his family as a pressure point.
Are these the people I hand my children over to ???

As an aside, I think that if they were left the hell alone from the very beginning, the Weavers were a threat to noone but the genepool.
All parties involved were huge losers and we footed a giant bill at every step along the way.
The whole thing sucked.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:09:28 AM EDT
I doubt it very seriously.

Why would someone do it?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:10:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I doubt it very seriously.

Why would someone do it?




To screw with Weaver. Same with all the LEO taunts
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:12:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
McVeigh was an idiot. It makes absolutely no sense to kill 168 random people.



And you think he acted alone?????
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:15:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I doubt it very seriously.

Why would someone do it?




To screw with Weaver. Same with all the LEO taunts



In this case I'm afraid you're right.



5sub
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:17:47 AM EDT
Actually, as I read it, he didn't ignore all the legal proceedings going on against him, but the subpeona that he got had the wrong date on it. He showed up on the date the subpoena said, and no one was there. That kinda flung things into high gear...
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:30:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:30:43 AM EDT
I used to be peripherally involved with the militia movement. I was in attendance when a certain NRA Board Member founded a militia. If that fact became widely known, it would probably be embarrassing for him... I was also helping a friend sell books at one of the largest (planned) Patriot rallies in Riverside,CA, one week after the OKC Bombing. As I see it that is when the militia movement took a nose-dive and never recovered. Louis Beam (author of the infamous Leaderless Resistance essay) was at the end of the table, and you could tell by his comments that he knew that a large setback had occurred.

Anyway, I had never heard of the "missing finger" thing before. There are many nuts running around, and you obviously can't believe everything that you hear and read. A common mistake is that people will readily believe that any cammo-clad nutjob is representative of the patriot/militia movement. There are (or were) plenty of men conviction and substance in the patriot movement. Guess who got all the air time? The room temp IQ dipwads.

It seems to have run its course; its point being made. Far as I can tell, JBTs are no longer storming churches or shooting nursing mothers in the head. A foreign war has people's attention elsewhere.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:34:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Louie:
The feds probably could have talked some sense into them had they not cranked up the pressure so much so quickly and forced "fight or flight" instincts to engage.



Yeah. Having some goon shoot your kid in the back will do that.

You are really unfamiliar with the story aren't you?

JRZY, I haven't heard of Mrs. Weaver's fingers being cut off, but the feds did call their base camp Vicky after Horiuchi murdered her.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:03:43 AM EDT
Yes, the court date on the court apperearance document given to Randy Weaver had the *wrong* date on it, so he showed up one month late, as I recall.

The creative testimony by the .gov in subsequent trials was laughable...they even tried to claim Weaver had shot his own son. Idaho LEO statements condradicted most of what the .gov tried to claim at the time, including who fired first.

The surviving Weavers got a $3.1 million wrongful death payment from the Justice Department. 5 FBI agents, including the one who killed Weaver's 14 year old son, got medals after the Weaver lawsuit was settled. (I guess even the Justice Department has its lucid moments lol...even they can see the folly in decorating these yahoos before the lawsuit had run its course).

Randy Weaver may/may not be the kind of guy you want to hang out with...but he did NOT deserve to see his son and wife murdered by the U.S. government, regardless.



Link Posted: 4/5/2006 7:51:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By g136653:

Originally Posted By Big_Louie:
The feds probably could have talked some sense into them had they not cranked up the pressure so much so quickly and forced "fight or flight" instincts to engage.



Yeah. Having some goon shoot your kid in the back will do that.

You are really unfamiliar with the story aren't you?

JRZY, I haven't heard of Mrs. Weaver's fingers being cut off, but the feds did call their base camp Vicky after Horiuchi murdered her.



Thats one true statement .
I think a good part of me will never get over the fact "our" govt let him get away with murder in the death of Vicky Weaver.
RIP Vicky

He's a fucking expert with top of the line equipment, that was no accident, he murdered her sure as the sky is blue.

I hope when horiuchi goes to meet his maker he is sent directly to hell and I hope satin sticks that rifle up his ass (everyday)


PS
We don't capitalize his name as a show of disrepsect.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 8:00:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 8:04:41 AM EDT by jrzy]
My copy of the book is buried in boxes somewhere in the basement after we moved into the new house.
Does anyone have a copy handy and check out page 42 and tell me what it says.
This guy I'm quoting says it says this:


Originally posted by KKK:
[QB] You sir, are a liar.
...Kevin left the cabin and surrendered on August 30, 1992. Shortly thereafter, Sam and Vicki's bodies were cremated, but not until after the FBI had snipped Vicki's fingers off and sent them to the FBI laboratory in Quantico, VA. Her fingers were never returned for cremation.
When questioned about it no one seemed to have an answer as to what they did with them....
page 42
Are you going to deny this, there are others out there that has read the book? [/QB]


Link Posted: 4/5/2006 1:31:41 PM EDT
Anyone?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 1:54:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Throttle-Junkie:
Red deployed for the attention defecit.


Originally Posted By Big_Louie:
There is a lot of moonbattery surrounding Ruby Ridge. No innocent parties were involved on any side. That idiot Weaver should have at least negotiated to allow his children out of harm's way, and the feds should have tried giving him a telephone call and asking him to talk to them before going in like Rambo. Same deal with Waco...at least try to talk to them first. Those guys were nuts, but they were probably as rational nuts as you will find and they had children present. The feds probably could have talked some sense into them had they not cranked up the pressure so much so quickly and forced "fight or flight" instincts to engage. Maybe the nuts would have started shooting anyway, but most likely there would be a lot less children dead in any event.



As I understand the train of events ....

The Weavers were racists with a major distrust of government.
They decided to move out to the middle of nowhere and rough it so they could be left alone.
They started attending events at Aryan Nations.
They weren't on board with Aryan Nations' theology and rhetoric, but they got along with the folks there and intermittently attended picnics and whatnot.
Some alphabet agency was looking to make a criminal case against Aryan Nations.
Said agency approached Randy Weaver to groom him as an informant/mole.
Weaver refuses.
Agency responds with intimidation tactics and thinly veiled threats.
Weaver continues to refuse.
Aforementioned agency began grinding an axe against Weaver for his insolence.
After much investigation, Weaver isn't doing anything illegal.
Agent provacateur gains Weaver's confidence and convinces/badgers him into cutting a shotgun and selling it to him.
Weaver is attempting to comply with the law, measure the barrel, cuts it at the legally mandated 18 inches, but unknowingly violates the OAL of 26 inches.
Thus , Randy Weaver has created and sold an AOW without paying the $200 manufacture tax or the $5 transfer tax.
Weaver then compounds the gravity of his situation by ignoring all legal proceedings taking place against him.
Standoff eventually ensues.

Now finally the point:
From the outside, watching the standoff on TV it seems obvious that they should send children running out to safety.
From Weaver's position, in every previous dealing with these people they've done their best to fuck him over and have a history of threatening him and attempting to use his family as a pressure point.
Are these the people I hand my children over to ???

As an aside, I think that if they were left the hell alone from the very beginning, the Weavers were a threat to noone but the genepool.
All parties involved were huge losers and we footed a giant bill at every step along the way.
The whole thing sucked.




I think you have accurately stated the occurrences at Ruby Ridge.

The two big factors were that the government could attack at will because the Weavers were racists and gun people. Add to that the fact the Federal Government had 8000 Ninjas in it's various departments, who have a military mindset and consider the public
" the enemy".

Even the Department of Agriculture has some kind of SWAT team for Christ's sake.

Link Posted: 4/5/2006 1:57:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 2:03:04 PM EDT by LARRYG]
The question is: Does anyone know if the cut her fingers off?

Well?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 2:02:08 PM EDT
I wrote a paper on the Ruby Ridge incident for a high school criminal justice class back in the day. I'll see if I can find it. I had a really good source that had a huge detailed report of the incident. I don't remember, but it was probably an official report which means the "anti-gubment" crowd won't care.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 2:07:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Delta-Swift:
I wrote a paper on the Ruby Ridge incident for a high school criminal justice class back in the day. I'll see if I can find it. I had a really good source that had a huge detailed report of the incident. I don't remember, but it was probably an official report which means the "anti-gubment" crowd won't care.



Mostly because the official story has no crediblity.
Just like at Waco, they lie and lie and lie, and then act suprised when people don't believe them.
When you break trust, it takes a lot to get back into good graces.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 2:28:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By Delta-Swift:
I wrote a paper on the Ruby Ridge incident for a high school criminal justice class back in the day. I'll see if I can find it. I had a really good source that had a huge detailed report of the incident. I don't remember, but it was probably an official report which means the "anti-gubment" crowd won't care.



Mostly because the official story has no crediblity.
Just like at Waco, they lie and lie and lie, and then act suprised when people don't believe them.
When you break trust, it takes a lot to get back into good graces.



That is possible. If I find it I'll post it. I can't remember what the source of the report was right now, but I'm inclined to believe it was probably official due to the length and detail. I'm not sure what reports you have read. I'm not sure what report I even read (I have to track it down), but the one I read seemed possible.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 2:50:40 PM EDT
Gerry Spence was Randy's lawyer for the trial. Gerry did not agree with Randy Weavers beliefs but believed everyone deserved a good defense when the government is railroading you! Gerry Spences book is a good read on this subject!!
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 3:25:22 PM EDT
Ok, I could not find my paper, but I believe that the source I used was titled "DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REPORT REGARDING INTERNAL INVESTIGATION OF SHOOTINGS AT RUBY RIDGE, IDAHO DURING ARREST OF RANDY WEAVER." I could not access the original document in its entirety on the DOJ website or the FBI website, but I found it several other places, one of which is:

Court TV Online

This next one is the same document, but it has hotlinks within it to make for faster scrolling:

byington.org

I didn't read all of it again, being that it is pretty damn big, but let's analyze this a little bit. Pick a piece or two of the recounting of the actual incident in the report that you think is crap, and then I'll see if I agree with you or not and we can have a little civil debate or civil agreement. We can always go to IMs if this thread gets out of hand.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 3:48:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Louie:
That idiot Weaver should have at least negotiated to allow his children out of harm's way, and the feds should have tried giving him a telephone call and asking him to talk to them before going in like Rambo.



His attackers had just murdered his oldest son. Would you give YOUR children over to a group of armed attackers who had just murdered one of them already, and were seemingly prepared to do the same to the rest of them?

So who's the idiot? They were from the Government, and they weren't there to help.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 3:59:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By anachronism:

Originally Posted By Big_Louie:
That idiot Weaver should have at least negotiated to allow his children out of harm's way, and the feds should have tried giving him a telephone call and asking him to talk to them before going in like Rambo.



His attackers had just murdered his oldest son. Would you give YOUR children over to a group of armed attackers who had just murdered one of them already, and were seemingly prepared to do the same to the rest of them?

So who's the idiot? They were from the Government, and they weren't there to help.



Everyone involved was an idiot. Weaver's options were to keep the children with him in a surrounded and stand-off type situation, in which case they would die...which happened...or try to talk the feds into letting his kids leave the danger zone. Say what you will about the feds, but option 2 seems like a higher percentage play to me. Not that it would have helped one of his kids, but...

I'm familiar enough with the story to know that no one involved was innocent. Weaver was an idiot and the feds were idiots and that is that.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:11:51 PM EDT

This is my biggest gripe with the tinfoil crowd. Ruby Ridge etc are big enough atrocities without having to make up stuff out of thin air. Makes us all look like drooling idiots.



I couldn't have said it better myself John.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:30:32 PM EDT
I find it interesting that because some people are different than us, it sort of legitimizes (in the minds of many) whatever happens to them.

"Aaaah, they were moonbats. Got what was coming to them. They didn't even try to protect the children by letting them out/go."

When you've been fucked with and lied to by the king's men, why the hell would you trust them with your kids' safety? I mean, think about it. At every juncture, Weaver was getting ramrodded by government agents. First, they badgered him into breaking the law, which he attempted NOT to do (remember, he tried to keep the shotty legal to the best of his knowledge), then they were holding that over his head, trying to get him to befriend and betray people in a group that he really wanted little to do with. Then, they apparently sent him a letter that had the wrong date (heheheh, so solly, Mr. Weaver, now you're a fugitive of justice), then they shot his dog and his son.

And he was supposed to send his kids out to those people?

Part of me thinks he would have been certifiably crazy if he DID send out his kids.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:41:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
The question is: Does anyone know if the cut her fingers off?

Well?



Thanks Larry.
Ruby Ridge threads always get hijacked don't they?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:48:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 4:50:48 PM EDT by Planerench]

Originally Posted By Delta-Swift:
I wrote a paper on the Ruby Ridge incident for a high school criminal justice class back in the day. I'll see if I can find it. I had a really good source that had a huge detailed report of the incident. I don't remember, but it was probably an official report which means the "anti-gubment" crowd won't care.



The official government position got Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris released with time served. THAT shows how credible it was.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:50:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
I find it interesting that because some people are different than us, it sort of legitimizes (in the minds of many) whatever happens to them.

"Aaaah, they were moonbats. Got what was coming to them. They didn't even try to protect the children by letting them out/go."

When you've been fucked with and lied to by the king's men, why the hell would you trust them with your kids' safety? I mean, think about it. At every juncture, Weaver was getting ramrodded by government agents. First, they badgered him into breaking the law, which he attempted NOT to do (remember, he tried to keep the shotty legal to the best of his knowledge), then they were holding that over his head, trying to get him to befriend and betray people in a group that he really wanted little to do with. Then, they apparently sent him a letter that had the wrong date (heheheh, so solly, Mr. Weaver, now you're a fugitive of justice), then they shot his dog and his son.

And he was supposed to send his kids out to those people?

Part of me thinks he would have been certifiably crazy if he DID send out his kids.



He had to have known that the stand-off was not going to end well from the start. Either option would not have been pleasant. I guess it is Monday morning quarterbacking though.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:52:23 PM EDT
Here's another question. Did Randy Weaver of Kevin Harris or anybody else fire any shots after the initial incident? Not trying to provoke anything, I just honestly don't know.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:52:24 PM EDT
I love these types of threads.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:54:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Louie:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
I find it interesting that because some people are different than us, it sort of legitimizes (in the minds of many) whatever happens to them.

"Aaaah, they were moonbats. Got what was coming to them. They didn't even try to protect the children by letting them out/go."

When you've been fucked with and lied to by the king's men, why the hell would you trust them with your kids' safety? I mean, think about it. At every juncture, Weaver was getting ramrodded by government agents. First, they badgered him into breaking the law, which he attempted NOT to do (remember, he tried to keep the shotty legal to the best of his knowledge), then they were holding that over his head, trying to get him to befriend and betray people in a group that he really wanted little to do with. Then, they apparently sent him a letter that had the wrong date (heheheh, so solly, Mr. Weaver, now you're a fugitive of justice), then they shot his dog and his son.

And he was supposed to send his kids out to those people?

Part of me thinks he would have been certifiably crazy if he DID send out his kids.



He had to have known that the stand-off was not going to end well from the start. Either option would not have been pleasant. I guess it is Monday morning quarterbacking though.



Hell, any surveilance (they were not there that day to arrest Weaver but to recon) that begins with your dog being shot followed by your son being shot in the back is bound to go downhill. ANYONE who would have sent his kids out of the house after the way this began would have been using bad judgement. It is obvious from the get go that if the entire family failed to survive it would have ruined no plans of the agency in charge.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:57:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
I love these types of threads.



I really don't. It makes me sick to think that there are guys out there with resources, badges, and even respect the likes of those that perpetrated the Ruby Ridge incident. I work with LE and support them. This kind of crap destroys trust in the good guys.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:58:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
I love these types of threads.


I really don't. It makes me sick to think that there are guys out there with resources, badges, and even respect the likes of those that perpetrated the Ruby Ridge incident. I work with LE and support them. This kind of crap destroys trust in the good guys.


My sentiments exactly. The fact that we have this to talk about sickens me.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:09:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jrzy:
I read Randy weavers book "The Federal Siege At Ruby Ridge" and I am having an argument with some idiot on another board who says Vicky Weavers fingers were cut off and missing when her body was returned to the family for burial.
Did I miss this in the book as this nut case claims?
It was a while ago I read it and I think I would remember a detail like that.
Anyone know?



Where was she shot? I can't remember. I read "Ambush at Ruby Ridge" a while ago and don't remember anything about fingers being cut off.



If it was in the head, then I could see about cutting one finger for I.D., but all her fingers?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:11:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 5:17:24 PM EDT by Delta-Swift]

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By Delta-Swift:
I wrote a paper on the Ruby Ridge incident for a high school criminal justice class back in the day. I'll see if I can find it. I had a really good source that had a huge detailed report of the incident. I don't remember, but it was probably an official report which means the "anti-gubment" crowd won't care.



The official government position got Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris released with time served. THAT shows how credible it was.



Did you read the report I linked above? The one I read was an internal review, finished and published in 1994 (~ 2 years after the incident, 1 year after Weaver's acquittal). Their conclusion was that:

"[...] the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team overreacted to the threat of violence and instituted a shoot-on-sight policy that violated bureau guidelines and Fourth Amendment restrictions on police power. The FBI disciplined 12 agents and employees, including Larry Potts, then the head of its criminal division and now its deputy director, for their roles in the operation."

So wrong doing was admitted in this report, so it may be much different than the original after-action-report filed. I haven't seen the report released right after the incident.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:16:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Delta-Swift:
Did you read the report I linked above? The one I read was an internal review, finished and published in 1994 (~ 2 years after the incident, 1 year after Weaver's indictment). Their conclusion was that:

"[...] the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team overreacted to the threat of violence and instituted a shoot-on-sight policy that violated bureau guidelines and Fourth Amendment restrictions on police power. The FBI disciplined 12 agents and employees, including Larry Potts, then the head of its criminal division and now its deputy director, for their roles in the operation."

So wrong doing was admitted in this report, so it may be much different than the original after-action-report filed. I haven't seen the report released right after the incident.


I wish I got disciplined like that. Guess I have to be in charge of a bunch of murderous thugs first, though.

Is the FBI hiring?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:18:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By Delta-Swift:
Did you read the report I linked above? The one I read was an internal review, finished and published in 1994 (~ 2 years after the incident, 1 year after Weaver's indictment). Their conclusion was that:

"[...] the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team overreacted to the threat of violence and instituted a shoot-on-sight policy that violated bureau guidelines and Fourth Amendment restrictions on police power. The FBI disciplined 12 agents and employees, including Larry Potts, then the head of its criminal division and now its deputy director, for their roles in the operation."

So wrong doing was admitted in this report, so it may be much different than the original after-action-report filed. I haven't seen the report released right after the incident.


I wish I got disciplined like that. Guess I have to be in charge of a bunch of murderous thugs first, though.

Is the FBI hiring?



Yeah, I'm not debating the fact that the punishments weren't harsh. I'm just trying to figure out if the report others are referring to is the same one I have linked to above.
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