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Posted: 4/4/2006 5:31:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 5:47:03 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
The Sopranos brought up the issue, and it's a conversation I've had with folks before.
The 6,000 year old Earth.

Dinosaurs are well over 100 million years old.
Dinosaurs did NOT live side by side with humans ala Flintstones.
There are human civilizations that date back way further than 6,000 years.
If the stars were to be created all at once -visible from Earth in a single moment- wouldn't that mean that they were all the same distance from Earth, given the speed of light, etc.?

Claiming that there are "some" scientists who don't believe in carbon dating doesn't cut it.
Claiming that ALL of the scientists who make claims of an older Earth are part of a Pro-Evolution Conspiracy is silly, too.
Have you ever been to the American Museum of Natural History?
That's one heck of a conspiracy there. Teddy Roosevelt must have been one of the founders of the conspiracy.

I'm sure that this will be a polite and civil discussion.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:32:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:34:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 5:35:39 AM EDT by Rodent]
Adam and Eve didn't ride dinosaurs to church?

WTF, has there been a jail break from the Religion Forum?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:37:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 5:37:57 AM EDT by DK-Prof]
Problem is, with an omnipotent God, ANYTHING is possible (by definition).

Maybe the dinosaurs never actually lived, but all the bones and clues to make it look like they did were put in the ground by God 6000 years ago - for inscrutable reasons of his own, because he "works in mysterious ways"

Maybe there were no civilizations or anything before 6000 years ago, but God created all the records, and created all the DNA and mitochondria to make it look like we are decended from common ancestors a few hundred thousand years back.


The answer "an omnipotent God just did it that way, for reasons known only to himself" is an explanation that trumps everything, and cannot be tested or disproven (which incidentally is why it is not a "theory" but dogma).
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:40:53 AM EDT
All of those dinosaur fossils and evidence of human cultures older than 6000 years were all planted by satan and his cohorts to fool us mortals.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:41:19 AM EDT
I'm just glad i got in before page 40.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:42:09 AM EDT
You know what I think? It don't matter what I think.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:44:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Problem is, with an omnipotent God, ANYTHING is possible (by definition).

Maybe the dinosaurs never actually lived, but all the bones and clues to make it look like they did were put in the ground by God 6000 years ago - for inscrutable reasons of his own, because he "works in mysterious ways"

Maybe there were no civilizations or anything before 6000 years ago, but God created all the records, and created all the DNA and mitochondria to make it look like we are decended from common ancestors a few hundred thousand years back.


The answer "an omnipotent God just did it that way, for reasons known only to himself" is an explanation that trumps everything, and cannot be tested or disproven (which incidentally is why it is not a "theory" but dogma).



That would make God a deceiving God, and Christians claim He doesn't do that.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:44:59 AM EDT
I'm not even discussing evolution, per se.

Forget evolution for a moment.

What about Human history? Or more to the point, PREhistory.

There is evidence of Human art and artifacts that are older than 25,000 years.
Evidence of Human existence going back 100,000 years.
Complex civilizations WELL over 6000 years old.

Layers upon layers of civilizations.
Were these things "buried by God", so that we might find them?
Like puzzles for children?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:45:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
You know what I think? It don't matter what I think.



Sure it does.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:47:29 AM EDT
Think about this: the 6000 year old earth theory states that God produced much of what is here in an "aged' form. Who's to counter an argument stating that the earth is 5 minutes old, with God not only creating everything "aged" but also all of the memories I have of my distant and recent past???
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:48:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
I'm not even discussing evolution, per se.

Forget evolution for a moment.

What about Human history? Or more to the point, PREhistory.

There is evidence of Human art and artifacts that are older than 25,000 years.
Evidence of Human existence going back 100,000 years.
Complex civilizations WELL over 6000 years old.

Layers upon layers of civilizations.
Were these things "buried by God", so that we might find them?
Like puzzles for children?



Creationists would just attack your dating methods and confuse the issue by saying that you simply hate God.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:50:34 AM EDT
No straw men, please.

Make YOUR case, not their's.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:50:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Problem is, with an omnipotent God, ANYTHING is possible (by definition).

Maybe the dinosaurs never actually lived, but all the bones and clues to make it look like they did were put in the ground by God 6000 years ago - for inscrutable reasons of his own, because he "works in mysterious ways"

Maybe there were no civilizations or anything before 6000 years ago, but God created all the records, and created all the DNA and mitochondria to make it look like we are decended from common ancestors a few hundred thousand years back.


The answer "an omnipotent God just did it that way, for reasons known only to himself" is an explanation that trumps everything, and cannot be tested or disproven (which incidentally is why it is not a "theory" but dogma).



That would make God a deceiving God, and Christians claim He doesn't do that.



Really? I didn't know Christians always believed that. Personally I never really thought about it, and I'm not familiar enough with scripture in detail to know if there are specific passsages that say unequivocally that God would not deceive or trick us.

B, even if there were such scripture, there might still be an "out" - since scripture also says that nobody can really know the mind of God (or words to that effect), it's not clear that we can FATHOM his mysterious ways enough to really be able to tell whether or not he is deceiving us.

Plus, the story of Job clearly illustrates that he is capable/willing to deceive when it serves a particular end.

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:52:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
No straw men, please.

Make YOUR case, not their's.




And I'm out

Definitely not my case, just trying to explain HOW it is possible to argue it (granted with a completely tautological and non-falsifiable logic)


Sorry
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:52:45 AM EDT
Do all Christians really believe that or is it only a certain subgroup?

I am not sure that I've heard a definitive answer there. For the ones that don't believe it (if they exist): Why don't you believe it?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:53:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Plus, the story of Job clearly illustrates that he is capable/willing to deceive when it serves a particular end.



That was a case of God allowing him to be tested .
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:53:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
Creationists would just attack your dating methods and confuse the issue by saying that you simply hate God.


No, we'd not want to get in the same argument for the millionth time.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:53:45 AM EDT
I tell my son that Mars is known as "Robot Planet".
And that Venus is populated with dinosaurs and green monkeys.

It's my story, I'm sticking to it.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:57:42 AM EDT
lies!, all lies!..

na na, i cant hear you!.. im not listening...

:)
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:58:00 AM EDT
the problem is that people still think of time as flowing in one direction.
let C stands for the moment of creation and < > for the flow of time

now this is how most people visualize it C>>>>>>>>>>>
but time is like any other dimension, left has right, forward has backwards, and up has down
and now we have <<<<<<<<<<<<<C>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

so a particular date of creation doesn't rule out past times previous to the date of creation
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:58:32 AM EDT
"Faith in immortality, like belief in God, leaves unanswered the ancient question: is God unable to prevent suffering, and thus not omnipotent? or is he able and not willing to and thus not merciful?"
-- Walter Kaufmann - "The Faith of a Heretic" (1961)
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:59:30 AM EDT
Only a few Christians believe the Earth is 6,000 years old. Read the 1st few chapters of Genesis and Peter and it is all explained for those with open minds.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:01:12 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:03:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:04:34 AM EDT
It's the only way to explain why it's not in the Bible.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:06:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 6:13:45 AM EDT by WildBoar]
Again the non religious look down on the religious. Kind of like the irritating religious who look down on the non believer. Hypocrites both sides.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:10:33 AM EDT
Do thinking people really still believe in religion and the creation of human existance by God? Surely you jest.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:10:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By xinflt:
Watch this:

The truth about Evolution.



Mr. Hovind lost me at "The Earth is not billions of years old."

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:11:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skinnysarge79:
so a particular date of creation doesn't rule out past times previous to the date of creation



I didn't realize there was a "Cocaine's Guide to the Universe".

It is a hell of a drug.

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:14:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 6:14:56 AM EDT by CasualObserver]
My first IBTL. WOOT!!!

Adam and Eve WERE dinosaurs.

Oh, and IBTMTTRF. (IBTMoveToTheReligionForum)

CO

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:16:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By California_Kid:

Originally Posted By xinflt:
Watch this:

The truth about Evolution.



Mr. Hovind lost me at "The Earth is not billions of years old."




Me too, I'm disappointed. I was genuinely interested in hearing some plausible explanation.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:16:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CasualObserver:


Oh, and IBTMTTRF. (IBTMoveToTheReligionForum)






I didn't know there was such a thing.

I'd prefer this remain here, because this is just as much an Historical discussion.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:18:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
The Sopranos brought up the issue, and it's a conversation I've had with folks before.
The 6,000 year old Earth.



Firstly, the idea of a 6,000 year old earth is one only some Christians have. The plain text of Genesis seems to suggest that the earth pre-existed the creation of man by an unknown ammount of time. It is, after all, hard for The Spirit to hover over the waters of a planet that isn't there.

Genesis, then, seems to show an account of a Divine rennovation of earth, rather than the creation of the earth itself at the time of Adam.

Thus even from scripture it is impossible to know how old the earth really is or what kinds of creatures populated the earth prior to Adam's arrival. The Bible speaks very little of what happened in the eternity that existed before Adam's first breath.



Dinosaurs are well over 100 million years old.



That very well may be. In fact, the Bible shows that universal creation (the creation of the universe at large) pre-dates the creation of man by an unknown span of time. Who knows what sort of creatures existed in this pre-time.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:20:58 AM EDT
Do you want to understand the Creationist point of view, or just argue?

www.answersingenesis.org

Hundreds of articles, many written by published scientists,a good search engine,
To your questions, all of the things listed have assumtions required to get to those conclusions.
Don't take my word on it, read up. There is an article on everything there.


Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:23:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Problem is, with an omnipotent God, ANYTHING is possible (by definition).

Maybe the dinosaurs never actually lived, but all the bones and clues to make it look like they did were put in the ground by God 6000 years ago - for inscrutable reasons of his own, because he "works in mysterious ways"

Maybe there were no civilizations or anything before 6000 years ago, but God created all the records, and created all the DNA and mitochondria to make it look like we are decended from common ancestors a few hundred thousand years back.



From a philosophical standpoint, one can understand why a master designer would use similar building blocks to create life on this planet. All organisms on this planet require some specific things to survive, which the planet earth provides in abundance. If we stipulate the existence of a designer, then it would make sense for Him to use some common elements to create life on a particular planet that has these same requirements.

It would be silly, for instance, to create a life form that needs high levels of sulfur in the atmosphere to survive and then to place them on earth. They wouldn't survive long. Earth would be an utterly unsuitable habitat for such a being. Life as we know it exists only on this planet, as this planet is the only one we know of that can support the kind of life we see every day.

The commonality in the biology of organisms on this planet isn't the result of God testing people, but is rather the result of common sense engineering from the Creationist perspective.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:23:33 AM EDT
Why must it be so?
Why do these questions mean an argument?
Can't there just be answers?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:24:09 AM EDT
I'm going to sit this one out.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:25:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Firstly, the idea of a 6,000 year old earth is one only some Christians have. The plain text of Genesis seems to suggest that the earth pre-existed the creation of man by an unknown ammount of time. It is, after all, hard for The Spirit to hover over the waters of a planet that isn't there.

Genesis, then, seems to show an account of a Divine rennovation of earth, rather than the creation of the earth itself at the time of Adam.

Thus even from scripture it is impossible to know how old the earth really is or what kinds of creatures populated the earth prior to Adam's arrival. The Bible speaks very little of what happened in the eternity that existed before Adam's first breath.



Okay, but as a Christian who does not buy into the 'dinosaur and man' theory hook, line, and sinker, do you still believe that people are only 6000 years old despite the best evidence we have contradicting this?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:30:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 6:34:11 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted By postpostban:
Do you want to understand the Creationist point of view, or just argue?

www.answersingenesis.org

Hundreds of articles, many written by published scientists,a good search engine,
To your questions, all of the things listed have assumtions required to get to those conclusions.
Don't take my word on it, read up. There is an article on everything there.




Interesting.
I used the search engine.
"Brontosaurus"...

Claimed that there were rumors of one being seen by some guy in Africa in 1919 -therfore they still exist.
Wow.
Also insinuated that there was never any such thing.

T-Rex?

Well, they existed in the Garden of Eden.
God destroyed them when the "Sin" incident occurred.

The Ark?

"After the Flood (around 4,500 years ago), the remnant of the land animals, including dinosaurs, came off the Ark and lived in the present world, along with people. "

Who knew?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:31:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
From a philosophical standpoint, one can understand why a master designer would use similar building blocks to create life on this planet. All organisms on this planet require some specific things to survive, which the planet earth provides in abundance. If we stipulate the existence of a designer, then it would make sense for Him to use some common elements to create life on a particular planet that has these same requirements.

It would be silly, for instance, to create a life form that needs high levels of sulfur in the atmosphere to survive and then to place them on earth. They wouldn't survive long. Earth would be an utterly unsuitable habitat for such a being. Life as we know it exists only on this planet, as this planet is the only one we know of that can support the kind of life we see every day.

The commonality in the biology of organisms on this planet isn't the result of God testing people, but is rather the result of common sense engineering from the Creationist perspective.



I have already typed several responses and deleted them, but this one begs me to ask.

Was God practicing with the dinosaurs? Trying to get it right on man?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:33:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 6:38:34 AM EDT by postpostban]

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:

Originally Posted By postpostban:
Do you want to understand the Creationist point of view, or just argue?

www.answersingenesis.org

Hundreds of articles, many written by published scientists,a good search engine,
To your questions, all of the things listed have assumtions required to get to those conclusions.
Don't take my word on it, read up. There is an article on everything there.




Scary.
I used the search engine.
"Brontosaurus"...

Claimed that there were rumors of one being seen by some guy in Africa in 1919 -therfore they still exist.
Wow.
Also insinuated that there was never any such thing.

T-Rex?

Well, they existed in the Garden of Eden.
God destroyed them when the "Sin" incident occurred.



Keep searching, try starlight and time.

ETA. T-rex was on the ark.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:38:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dolanp:
Okay, but as a Christian who does not buy into the 'dinosaur and man' theory hook, line, and sinker, do you still believe that people are only 6000 years old despite the best evidence we have contradicting this?



I don't believe there is a way to accurately account for the length of time man has been on the earth from Biblical accounts.

The Bible gives the ages of important people, and some have used these to calculate the approximate age of the human race. But such calculations do not account for an unknown period of time that Adam was in the garden of eden without sin (it could have been 10 minutes or 10,000 years. The Bible doesn't give a time frame, as Adam was ageless before sin....) nor does it tell us what creatures pre-existed Adam.

Could there have been a creature that existed before Adam that was similar to humans as we know them today in eternity past? The Bible certainly doesn't say that there weren't.

The point being that a lot of the arguements on this topic are fueled by people filling in what the Bible does NOT say.

The Bible never explicitly says how old the earth is, how old humanity is, or give an exhaustive account of all eternity. There are many things the Bible is absolutely silent about, but people have a tendancy to fill in their own ideas where the Bible is silent. Thus what is being combatted isn't really what the Bible says, but is more the conclusions some people have drawn while reading the Bible.

My great grandmother who pre-dates the scopes trials and the evolution vs creation contraversy was fond of saying that we have no way of knowing what God did before He decided to create Adam, and frankly we wouldn't understand it if He DID try to explain it to us anyway.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:40:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 6:41:14 AM EDT by Rodent]

Originally Posted By xinflt:
Watch this:

The truth about Evolution.



Talk about putting lipstick on the Creation pig.

Anyone else find that guy downright frightening?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:41:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By xinflt:
Watch this:

The truth about Evolution.



Anyone else find that downright frightening?



It's downright bullshit is what it is.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:42:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By postpostban:

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:

Originally Posted By postpostban:
Do you want to understand the Creationist point of view, or just argue?

www.answersingenesis.org

Hundreds of articles, many written by published scientists,a good search engine,
To your questions, all of the things listed have assumtions required to get to those conclusions.
Don't take my word on it, read up. There is an article on everything there.




Scary.
I used the search engine.
"Brontosaurus"...

Claimed that there were rumors of one being seen by some guy in Africa in 1919 -therfore they still exist.
Wow.
Also insinuated that there was never any such thing.

T-Rex?

Well, they existed in the Garden of Eden.
God destroyed them when the "Sin" incident occurred.



Keep searching, try starlight and time.

ETA. T-rex was on the ark.



I did.
www.answersingenesis.org/Docs/405.asp

Lots and lots of different "theories".
Everything from light created "in transit".
To "maybe light moved faster back then".

The problem is this:
It is all reactionary.
It all seems to be trying to ARGUE against the idea of "old universe" and "old Earth".
None of these arguments are as convincing as DKprof's.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:44:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:
I have already typed several responses and deleted them, but this one begs me to ask.

Was God practicing with the dinosaurs? Trying to get it right on man?



I wouldn't refer to life that pre-existed Adam as "practice", but who is to say? An infinite God is certainly capable of creating anything that strikes His fancy.

That's a question asked in an area where the Bible is silent, and I can't give a Biblical answer to that question.

The Bible's outline of pre-history is this:

God created the universe.
God created a cadre of advanced beings known in our terms as "angels".
At some point in eternity past, some of these angels rebelled against God and introduced disorder into the created universe.

As I said before, Genesis seems to show Earth as existing before Adam, possibly before this rebellion ever took place. Who knows what forms of life existed here before that rebellion, or what sort of consequences happened as a result of that disorder.

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:44:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By dolanp:
Okay, but as a Christian who does not buy into the 'dinosaur and man' theory hook, line, and sinker, do you still believe that people are only 6000 years old despite the best evidence we have contradicting this?



I don't believe there is a way to accurately account for the length of time man has been on the earth from Biblical accounts.

The Bible gives the ages of important people, and some have used these to calculate the approximate age of the human race. But such calculations do not account for an unknown period of time that Adam was in the garden of eden without sin (it could have been 10 minutes or 10,000 years. The Bible doesn't give a time frame, as Adam was ageless before sin....) nor does it tell us what creatures pre-existed Adam.

Could there have been a creature that existed before Adam that was similar to humans as we know them today in eternity past? The Bible certainly doesn't say that there weren't.

The point being that a lot of the arguements on this topic are fueled by people filling in what the Bible does NOT say.

The Bible never explicitly says how old the earth is, how old humanity is, or give an exhaustive account of all eternity. There are many things the Bible is absolutely silent about, but people have a tendancy to fill in their own ideas where the Bible is silent. Thus what is being combatted isn't really what the Bible says, but is more the conclusions some people have drawn while reading the Bible.

My great grandmother who pre-dates the scopes trials and the evolution vs creation contraversy was fond of saying that we have no way of knowing what God did before He decided to create Adam, and frankly we wouldn't understand it if He DID try to explain it to us anyway.



I see, thank you for your response.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:44:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Why must it be so?
Why do these questions mean an argument?
Can't there just be answers?



this is why they wont listen



Why would any Christian want to take man’s fallible dating methods and use them to impose an idea on the infallible Word of God?


well, when God stops by to tell us, let me know, till then the Bible is still written by "fallible" man..
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:44:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By xinflt:
Watch this:

The truth about Evolution.



Talk about putting lipstick on the Creation pig.

Anyone else find that guy downright frightening?



Filled with straw man arguments and ad hominums.

He argues via his daughter with the erroneous museum guide.
And wins! Hooray.

He claims to "like science" in the same tone one uses to say "I like asparagus".
Yet he doesn't employ any science or empirical evidence in making his case.
He must not "like" it that much.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:46:29 AM EDT
The dinosaurs ate all the humans 100 million years ago thats why you dont find them side by side
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