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Posted: 3/21/2006 9:54:01 PM EDT
Just watching the history channel on the F14 and curious as to which was actually a superior air to air fighter. I've always been under the impression that the F15 was the worlds premier fighter aircraft but could the F14 hold it's own against it? If we took a dozen of each in it's most modern configuration and loaded with the best weapons it can run and of course skilled pilots ( in other words USAF pilots) what would be the winning platform?

How about multi role?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 9:55:17 PM EDT
Doesn't really matter now....
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:14:45 PM EDT



F-15
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:19:13 PM EDT
Almost apples and oranges comparison. The 14 mission was as an interceptor intercepting Russian bombers before they launched on the fleet and hopefully any missiles they launched if they didn't get all the bombers before launch. Primary weapon system was the Phoenix missile system for long distance engagements. Was pretty good a dogfighting as it could turn pretty darn tight and get the speed down low to engage smaller slower targets with guns, sparrows or sidewinders. Late in life additional multi-roles were added. The 15 was designed as a high performance air superiority fighter with a primary mission of anti-fighter offensive and defensive roles.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:19:22 PM EDT
Without the Phoenix they would be about equal, besides the F-14's radar package, I'm not sure how they compare to each other. The F-14 is faster, but if I remember right the F-15 is a better dog fighter. As metioned before it doesn't really matter now they both would get p3wned equally by the F-22A.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:21:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 10:22:03 PM EDT by thehardmaster]
It seems like the F14 with its AIM-54C would shoot the F15 down long before the F15 could engage with AMRAMMs. In a turning battle or energy fight I think it would boil down to pilot skill.

ETA, shit I need to type faster.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:28:54 PM EDT
I just watched that too. F-14 hands down. Best fighter ever. Flown by the best pilots, too. From what I could see, the F-14 can do everything the F-15 can do, and then some.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:31:01 PM EDT
Don't know enough to comment, but I remember reading in Aviation Magazine that no F15 has ever been shot down. Plus, where's those pics of the beating that F15 took and still landed?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:38:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 10:40:22 PM EDT by stickfigure]

Originally Posted By steve-oh:
Don't know enough to comment, but I remember reading in Aviation Magazine that no F15 has ever been shot down. Plus, where's those pics of the beating that F15 took and still landed?



Right, the F-15 has a 400 to 1 Kill ratio.

Similar post from a Forum for Aviation Guru's F-15C holds the higher poll numbers. One thing going for the F-15 is it's real world record, F-14's have been shot down, by other jets. Sad but true.

http://worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=10608&page=1&pp=20
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:46:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

The F-14 is faster,




wrong
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:48:34 PM EDT
F-15 hands down. Riddle me this. If the F-14 was such a superior aircraft, then why does its combat record stand at 4 kills? Why is it being retired? Why have F-14's been shot down. Why haven't F-15 been shot down? Why does the F-15 have a hell of a lot more than 4 kills?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:51:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

The F-14 is faster,




wrong



We're not talking about the Streak Eagle here. The average F-15C with F100 or F220 Engines doesn't fly any faster than an F-14. I've spent the last 6 years of my career as an F-15 Crew Chief. They don't push them much faster than mach 1.5 and that is in full burner for about 2 minutes.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:00:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 11:02:22 PM EDT by Mr45auto]

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

The F-14 is faster,




wrong



We're not talking about the Streak Eagle here. The average F-15C with F100 or F220 Engines doesn't fly any faster than an F-14. I've spent the last 6 years of my career as an F-15 Crew Chief. They don't push them much faster than mach 1.5 and that is in full burner for about 2 minutes.



Isnt the 15 rated at Mach 2.5+?
www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/docs/F-15E_overview.pdf
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:03:18 PM EDT
First, DON'T compair the two.

Buuuuuuut, think about it... the F-14 belongs to the Navy which we all know is one of the first to respond in conflicts; where as the F-15 is with the Air Force who can't show up untill there is a foot hold to land on. The Navy flys hundreds of sorties a day so I think the F-14 is pretty good for what it is. The F-15 is fast ( broke the sound barrier going vertically during a test [stripped down of course]) and was developed slightly after the F-14 so it has the advantage of newer toys. Each has their points as they were designed for different roles, and capabilities. Just be happy that they are both on our side.

That out to have stirred the shit pot
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:04:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 11:08:13 PM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

The F-14 is faster,




wrong



We're not talking about the Streak Eagle here. The average F-15C with F100 or F220 Engines doesn't fly any faster than an F-14. I've spent the last 6 years of my career as an F-15 Crew Chief. They don't push them much faster than mach 1.5 and that is in full burner for about 2 minutes.



OK, I was including the E model which can hit 2.5

from what I've read about F14's with the F110 engines is mach 2.4 is about maxed out BUT
operating above 1.5 was very rare, again too much fuel burn
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:09:42 PM EDT
What do you mean no F-15 has been shot down, didn't anybody see "Red Dawn"?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:11:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 11:13:59 PM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By PaDanby:
Almost apples and oranges comparison. The 14 mission was as an interceptor intercepting Russian bombers before they launched on the fleet and hopefully any missiles they launched if they didn't get all the bombers before launch. Primary weapon system was the Phoenix missile system for long distance engagements. Was pretty good a dogfighting as it could turn pretty darn tight and get the speed down low to engage smaller slower targets with guns, sparrows or sidewinders. Late in life additional multi-roles were added.

The 15 was designed as a high performance air superiority fighter with a primary mission of anti-fighter offensive and defensive roles.




The F-15E Strike Eagle is a modern American all-weather strike fighter, designed for long-range interdiction of enemy ground targets deep behind enemy lines. A derivative of the F-15 Eagle air superiority fighter, the Strike Eagle proved its worth in Desert Storm, carrying out deep strikes against high-value targets and providing close air support for Coalition troops. Visually, the Strike Eagle can be distinguished from the standard F-15 by the fighter's dark 'Gunship Gray' Paint, versus the "Air superiority gray" color scheme of the F-15C/D.

n March of 1981, the USAF announced the Enhanced Tactical Fighter program to procure a replacement for the F-111. The concept envisioned an aircraft capable of launching deep interdiction missions without requiring additional support in the form of fighter escort or jamming support. General Dynamics submitted the F-16XL, while McDonnell Douglas submitted a variant of the F-15. The F-15E's first flight was on December 11, 1986. The first production model of the F-15E was delivered to the 405th Tactical Training Wing, Luke Air Force Base, Ariz., in April 1988. The "Strike Eagle", as it was dubbed, received initial operational capability in October 1989 at Seymour Johnson AFB in North Carolina with the 4th Tactical Fighter Wing. Variants of the F-15E are also operated by Israel (F-15I), Korea (F-15K), Saudi Arabia (F-15S) and Singapore (F-15SG)

The F-15E played an integral role in Operation Desert Storm, completing thousands of sorties and recording their bomb strikes on video along the way. Only 3 F-15E's have been lost in combat over Iraq (2 in Desert Storm and 1 in Iraqi Freedom).

While the F-15C/D is being replaced by the F-22 Raptor, there is no slated replacement for the F-15E. As the Strike Eagles are more recent than the F-15 and rated for twice the lifetime, they will remain in service well into the middle of the 2020's, perhaps longer. The Air Force is currently investigating a "regional bomber" concept, and among the possibilities are a bomber derivative of the F-22 Raptor, essentially carrying on the Strike Eagle legacy.

The deep strike mission of the F-15E is a radical departure from that of the F-15, designed as an air superiority fighter under the mantra "not a pound for air-to-ground". However, the basic airframe proved versatile enough to produce a very capable strike fighter. While designed for ground attack, it retains much of the air-to-air lethality of the F-15, and can defend itself against enemy aircraft.

The F-15E is a derivative of the F-15B, a trainer craft. Instead of an instructor pilot in the back, the F-15E's second seat is equipped for a Weapon Systems Officer (WSO pronounced Wizzo), or known to some as the "guy in back" (GIB), to work the new air-to-ground avionics. On four screens, the WSO can display information from the radar, electronic warfare or infrared sensors, monitor aircraft or weapons status and possible threats, select targets, and use an electronic "moving map" to navigate. Two hand controls are used to select new displays and to refine targeting information. Displays can be moved from one screen to another, chosen from a "menu" of display options. Unlike earlier two-place jets (like the F-14 Tomcat and F-4 Phantom II), whose "backseater" was essentially along for the ride, the back seat of the F-15E cockpit is equipped with its own stick and throttle, and the F-15E WSO can take over flying if necessary (although his view is somewhat obstructed).

To extend its range, the F-15E is fitted with two conformal fuel tanks that hug the fuselage, producing lower drag than conventional fuel tanks. They carry 750 U.S. gallons (2,800 L) of fuel, and also contain six weapons hardpoints. However, unlike conventional fuel tanks, they cannot be jettisoned, so increased range comes at the cost of degraded performance with respect to the F-15 as a result of the additional drag and weight. The same tanks can be mounted on F-15C's, but the range/performance tradeoff is typically not worth it for an air superiority fighter.

The Strike Eagle's tactical electronic warfare system (TEWS) integrates all countermeasures on the craft: radar warning receivers (RWR), radar jammer, radar, and chaff/flare dispensers are all tied to the TEWS to provide comprehensive defense against detection and tracking.

An inertial navigation system uses a laser gyroscope to continuously monitor the aircraft's position and provide information to the central computer and other systems, including a digital moving map in both cockpits.

The APG-70 radar system allows air crews to detect ground targets from longer ranges. One feature of this system is that after a sweep of a target area, the crew freezes the air-to-ground map then goes back into air-to-air mode to clear for air threats. During the air-to-surface weapon delivery, the pilot is capable of detecting, targeting and engaging air-to-air targets while the WSO designates the ground target.

The low-altitude navigation and targeting infrared for night (LANTIRN) system allows the aircraft to fly at low altitudes, at night and in any weather conditions, to attack ground targets with a variety of precision-guided and unguided weapons. The LANTIRN system gives the F-15E unequaled accuracy in weapons delivery day or night and in poor weather, and consists of two pods attached to the exterior of the aircraft. At night, the video picture from the LANTIRN can be projected on the HUD, producing an image identical to what he would see during daytime.

The navigation pod contains terrain-following radar which allows the pilot to safely fly at a very low altitude following cues displayed on a heads up display. This system also can be coupled to the aircraft's autopilot to provide "hands off" terrain-following capability.

The targeting pod contains a laser designator and a tracking system that mark an enemy for destruction as far away as 10 mi (16 km). Once tracking has been started, targeting information is automatically handed off to infrared air-to-surface missiles or laser-guided bombs.

For air-to-ground missions, the F-15E can carry most weapons in the U.S. Air Force inventory. It also can be armed with AIM-9 Sidewinders, AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAMs for the air-to-air role. Like the F-15, the Strike Eagle also carries an internally mounted General Electric M61A 20mm cannon.


F-15C, D, and E models were deployed to the Persian Gulf in 1991 in support of Operation Desert Storm where they accounted for 36 of the 39 Air Force air-to-air victories. F-15Es were operated mainly at night, hunting SCUD missile launchers and artillery sites using the LANTIRN system.

They have since been deployed to support Operation Southern Watch, the patrolling of the No-Fly Zone in Southern Iraq; Operation Provide Comfort in Turkey; in support of NATO operations in Bosnia, and recent air expeditionary force deployments.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:12:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 11:14:21 PM EDT by cnatra]
Kill record

As of 2005, the F-15 in all air forces has a combined kill record of 104 kills to zero (confirmed) losses in air combat (exluding the case of a Japanese F-15J that shot down another F-15J in 1995 due to an AIM-9 Sidewinder safety malfunction during air-to-air combat training with live weapons). To date, the air superiority version of the F-15 (F-15A/B/C/D models) has never been shot down by an enemy aircraft, although some F-15s have been claimed by surface-to-air missiles of the Syrian Air Force (however, most sources say that, to date, no F-15s have been shot down in air-to-air combat).

Over half of the F-15's kills were made by Israeli Air Force pilots during the 1982 Lebanon War. The Israeli Air Force shotdown dozens of Syrian-piloted Russian MiG-21s (the reported figure varies from 80-92) and several MiG-25s. A substantial fraction of these MiGs were shot down by F-15s.

Royal Saudi Air Force F-15 pilots shot down two F-4 Phantoms flown by the Iranian Air Force in a border skirmish in 1984, and shot down two Iraqi Mirage F1 during the Gulf War.

Thirty-four aircraft kills were by USAF F-15Cs in the 1991 Gulf War, mostly by missile fire. After F-15s shot down all of the top Iraqi pilots in the first 3 days of the conflict, many of the later kills were reportedly of Iraqi aircraft fleeing, rather than actively trying to engage US planes. The single-seat F-15C was used for air superiority, and the F-15E was heavily used in air-to-ground attacks.

An F-15E achieved an aerial kill of an Iraqi helicopter using a laser-guided bomb during the air war. The F-15E sustained two losses to ground fire in the Gulf War in 1991. One F-15E was lost in the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, likely due to crew error, but possibly ground fire.

USAF F-15Cs also scored several Serbian MiG-29 kills during NATO's Operation Allied Force in 1999, again without the loss of an F-15C.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:14:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

The F-14 is faster,




wrong



We're not talking about the Streak Eagle here. The average F-15C with F100 or F220 Engines doesn't fly any faster than an F-14. I've spent the last 6 years of my career as an F-15 Crew Chief. They don't push them much faster than mach 1.5 and that is in full burner for about 2 minutes.



Isnt the 15 rated at Mach 2.5+?
www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/docs/F-15E_overview.pdf



Yes, that was the Streak Eagle. Not regular F-15C's. Also there is something that non-Crew Chiefs Engine folks need to understand about these quoted speeds, they are in very short bursts, these jets can't maintain afterburner for much more than a couple minutes or they burn up. That's why an F-22A at 1.5 mach is a lot faster than an F-15C at 2.0 mach. It can maintain the speed longer because of super cruise. The F-14's F110 were made to hold mach longer than the F100 or F220. The F229 I am unsure about but it's on the F-15E and that is a whole differant bird for this kind of conversation.

But yes, there was an F-15 called the Streak Eagle that pushed mach 2.5 and beyond. But the average F-15 doesn't go this fast. The average F-14 cruises faster and is capable of holding a faster average speed than an F-15, but it is also a larger aircraft and outwieghts it by at least 5 tons.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:21:07 PM EDT

F-14s of the U. S. Navy have shot down five enemy aircraft for no losses.
One has been lost to a surface-to-air missile.

Combat history of the F-14:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_history_of_the_F-14
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:22:17 PM EDT
The F-14's primary weapon has been the AIM-54 Phoenix missile, capable of engaging a target at up to 200 km (120 statute miles). It was removed from service on 30 September 2004, replaced by the lower-range but much more accurate and maneuverable AMRAAM. The F-14 was the only aircraft to carry the AIM-54, which was designed as an integral part of the Tomcat weapons system. Although it could carry up to six of these large weapons, its heavy weight only enabled the F-14 to land on a carrier with two. Medium-range armament was provided by the AIM-7 Sparrow semi-active radar homing missile (also replaced by the AMRAAM). For short ranges, it carried AIM-9 Sidewinder infrared missiles and a single M61 Vulcan 20 mm cannon.


The AIM-54 Phoenix is a long-range air-to-air missile, carried in clusters of up to six missiles on the F-14 Tomcat, the only aircraft capable of carrying it.

The Phoenix missile was the US Navy's only long-range air-to-air missile. It is an airborne weapons control system with multiple-target handling capabilities, used to kill multiple air targets with conventional warheads. Near simultaneous launch is possible against up to six targets in all weather and heavy jamming environments. The improved Phoenix, the AIM-54C, was developed to better counter projected threats from tactical aircraft and cruise missiles.

The AIM-54 Phoenix was retired from USN service on 30 September 2004.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:22:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 11:24:25 PM EDT by stickfigure]

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

The F-14 is faster,




wrong



We're not talking about the Streak Eagle here. The average F-15C with F100 or F220 Engines doesn't fly any faster than an F-14. I've spent the last 6 years of my career as an F-15 Crew Chief. They don't push them much faster than mach 1.5 and that is in full burner for about 2 minutes.



OK, I was including the E model which can hit 2.5

from what I've read about F14's with the F110 engines is mach 2.4 is about maxed out BUT
operating above 1.5 was very rare, again too much fuel burn



I imagine that if you took a new F-15C frame and stuffed it with new F229 engines and stripped it down like the Streak Eagle you could push Mach 3. But even E models rarely push over Mach 2 especially with how much wieght they carry. They are pigs, 12 - 500lbs bombs, 2 AIM-120's and 2 AIM-9's missiles and 3 bags of fuel makes for a lot of wieght. plus the extra drag all that and CFT's create! Maybe empty an E model could push Mach 2.5 on a good day.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:25:15 PM EDT
F15. Superior weapons and avionics.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:38:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

The F-14 is faster,




wrong



We're not talking about the Streak Eagle here. The average F-15C with F100 or F220 Engines doesn't fly any faster than an F-14. I've spent the last 6 years of my career as an F-15 Crew Chief. They don't push them much faster than mach 1.5 and that is in full burner for about 2 minutes.



OK, I was including the E model which can hit 2.5

from what I've read about F14's with the F110 engines is mach 2.4 is about maxed out BUT
operating above 1.5 was very rare, again too much fuel burn



I imagine that if you took a new F-15C frame and stuffed it with new F229 engines and stripped it down like the Streak Eagle you could push Mach 3. But even E models rarely push over Mach 2 especially with how much wieght they carry. They are pigs, 12 - 500lbs bombs, 2 AIM-120's and 2 AIM-9's missiles and 3 bags of fuel makes for a lot of wieght. plus the extra drag all that and CFT's create! Maybe empty an E model could push Mach 2.5 on a good day.



The E model I was the DCC on back a Seymour Johnson would do at least 2.3 clean with -220 engines. With CFT and pylons it was a whole lot less.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:40:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

The F-14 is faster,




wrong



Something like mach 2.34 for the F14; Mach 2.5 for the F15.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:54:50 AM EDT
then there is the story of the f-15s that went on a routine dact hop over virginia. they were quite used to mopping the floor with the tf30-engined f-14A, and got a really nasty surprise when -14Ds showed up unannounced.

the AoA characteristics granted by the "pancake" fuselage of the -14 are outstanding. as the fight slows down, this combines with VG to offset the eagle's t/w ratio advantage. from detection to the merge, the f15 is simply a more advanced weapon, but in the phone booth, the upengined tomcat can give it a run for its money.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:59:36 AM EDT
A few F-22's would whip them all.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:00:30 AM EDT
As someone who loves the Tomcat, and is sad to see it going away this year, the winner in a dogfight would be the F15 without question.

The Eagle was designed from the start to be an air superiority fighter, and tons money was dumped into the program to ensure that would be the result. It was. The F15 is faster, turns tighter, climbs faster, and manuvers better.

The Tomcat is a good dogfighter, and against almost any other nation it would win. The Eagle is an excellent dogfighter.

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:03:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stickfigure:
Without the Phoenix they would be about equal, besides the F-14's radar package, I'm not sure how they compare to each other. The F-14 is faster, but if I remember right the F-15 is a better dog fighter.



Um no. Even the F14D with the more advanced and higher thrust engines could never match the F15. The F15 is a whole generation more advanced then the F14. Head to head in a dog fight I would take the F15 everytime. The AIM 54 did give the F14 and advantage in a long distance fight.

The F14 has a max speed of Mach 2.3, the F15 is able to achieve 2.5.

Thats all relative, top speed doesnt mean jack. Neither aircraft could sustain any high mach numbers for any length of time.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:18:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:

Originally Posted By stickfigure:
Without the Phoenix they would be about equal, besides the F-14's radar package, I'm not sure how they compare to each other. The F-14 is faster, but if I remember right the F-15 is a better dog fighter.



Um no. Even the F14D with the more advanced and higher thrust engines could never match the F15. The F15 is a whole generation more advanced then the F14. Head to head in a dog fight I would take the F15 everytime. The AIM 54 did give the F14 and advantage in a long distance fight.

The F14 has a max speed of Mach 2.3, the F15 is able to achieve 2.5.

Thats all relative, top speed doesnt mean jack. Neither aircraft could sustain any high mach numbers for any length of time.



I guess you read the first few posts and decided to skip to the end to post a reply, I explained all that in following posts.

But you are right, top speeds are relative. Recorded top speeds in books are under optimum conditions and in the case of the F-15, the Streak Eagle is the one that broke Mach 2.5. That isn't the norm for any old F-15C.

My point was that the F-14 is capable of sustaining a higher rate of speed longer than the F-15. It's engines were built to sustain afterburner longer so it could intercept the enemy long before they got within range of the Carrier. The F-15C can only sustain afterburner for a couple minutes before the engines burn up.


TO EVERYONE ELSE MACH 2.5 IS SPEED THE STREAK EAGLE SET!!!! NOT THE NORM FOR ANY OFF THE SHELF F-15!!!
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:21:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CFII:
F15. Superior weapons and avionics.



Does the Air force have better mods of the AIM-120, AIM-9 and M61 20mm than the Navy AIM-120,AIM-9 and M61 20mm carried by the retired Tomcat and the F-18's?
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:22:16 AM EDT
someone just post the curves, willya!
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:03:24 AM EDT


In a couple of the bios on John Boyd they went into this on great detail. The thrust to weight ratio is very low on the F14--the added weight to create the strength for the variable (moving ) wings meant for the power, the F14 was a poor dogfighter. In the book I believe they said that the navy was once told NOT to dogfight the USAF in that airframe. Note that after the F111 and F14 they have gone away from swing wings.

Biggest advantage of an F14 was the long range AIM 54.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:11:31 AM EDT
TWo different missions, two different planes. Both kicked ass.

<­BR>

F-14 all the way.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:32:40 AM EDT
Lawn darts will own both of them.



9 more days until my sentence working POS fucking lawn darts is over.

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:34:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stickfigure:
I explained all that in following posts.




Why didnt you say that in the first reply? I guess you didnt have enough time to google it up or wasnt your copy of Janes handy.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:57:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CAAAwarfighter:

Originally Posted By CFII:
F15. Superior weapons and avionics.



Does the Air force have better mods of the AIM-120, AIM-9 and M61 20mm than the Navy AIM-120,AIM-9 and M61 20mm carried by the retired Tomcat and the F-18's?



I don't think the F-14 ever got the amraam.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:14:02 AM EDT
There is a lot of talk (speculation) that the Phoenix was a scale tipper for the F14. Is there any data to support that? The last info I had (adnittedly not recent) was the Phoenix was "over rated". I think I recal it only has one combat kill. Anyone know how many times it was used in actual combat and what the results were?

Just asking....because I don't know.


Bomber
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:24:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CFII:
F15. Superior weapons and avionics.


Let's see, they carried the same weapons, air to air, I'm not sure about the Bombcat vs the Strike Eagle.

Avionics? The F-14 led the way with the AWG-9 many years ago.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:26:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ALLANJ:

Originally Posted By CAAAwarfighter:

Originally Posted By CFII:
F15. Superior weapons and avionics.



Does the Air force have better mods of the AIM-120, AIM-9 and M61 20mm than the Navy AIM-120,AIM-9 and M61 20mm carried by the retired Tomcat and the F-18's?



I don't think the F-14 ever got the amraam.


Yes it did.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:30:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thebomber:
There is a lot of talk (speculation) that the Phoenix was a scale tipper for the F14. Is there any data to support that? The last info I had (adnittedly not recent) was the Phoenix was "over rated". I think I recal it only has one combat kill. Anyone know how many times it was used in actual combat and what the results were?

Just asking....because I don't know.


Bomber


The Pheonix was designed to kill bombers and huge Soviet anti-ship missiles. It would have been marginal in air to air combat role.

As for the kill ratios of the two, the F-14 was never flown by the Israelis over Lebanon like the F-15 was. The F-14 never had the number of users the F-15 did. When Iran did see combat with F-14As it was after their officer corps had been purged. The F-15 also had the advantage of being sold to better air forces than Iran. All the airforces the -15 were sold to were first rate, except the Saudi Air Force, and they're better than just about any other air force in the region, except Israel.

That being said, once they're inside AMRAAM range, I'd give the advantage to the F-15 over the F-14. The F-14 was designed as an interceptor, not an air superiority fighter.

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:33:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stickfigure:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:

Originally Posted By stickfigure:
Without the Phoenix they would be about equal, besides the F-14's radar package, I'm not sure how they compare to each other. The F-14 is faster, but if I remember right the F-15 is a better dog fighter.



Um no. Even the F14D with the more advanced and higher thrust engines could never match the F15. The F15 is a whole generation more advanced then the F14. Head to head in a dog fight I would take the F15 everytime. The AIM 54 did give the F14 and advantage in a long distance fight.

The F14 has a max speed of Mach 2.3, the F15 is able to achieve 2.5.

Thats all relative, top speed doesnt mean jack. Neither aircraft could sustain any high mach numbers for any length of time.



I guess you read the first few posts and decided to skip to the end to post a reply, I explained all that in following posts.

But you are right, top speeds are relative. Recorded top speeds in books are under optimum conditions and in the case of the F-15, the Streak Eagle is the one that broke Mach 2.5. That isn't the norm for any old F-15C.

My point was that the F-14 is capable of sustaining a higher rate of speed longer than the F-15. It's engines were built to sustain afterburner longer so it could intercept the enemy long before they got within range of the Carrier. The F-15C can only sustain afterburner for a couple minutes before the engines burn up.


TO EVERYONE ELSE MACH 2.5 IS SPEED THE STREAK EAGLE SET!!!! NOT THE NORM FOR ANY OFF THE SHELF F-15!!!



Every comparison is problematic, the Air Force is CONTINUING to update the F-15, even today, what are they up to F15J ??????????? The USN didn't update the F-14 for the last what 20 years, except for the "bombcat" version. They wanted the F-14 replaced, so they stopped updating so they could point out it wasn't up to date.

Compare 1980's version of both. Not a 1980 version F14D against a 2006 F15C or E.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:36:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By moto89:
F-15 hands down. Riddle me this. If the F-14 was such a superior aircraft, then why does its combat record stand at 4 kills? Why is it being retired? Why have F-14's been shot down. Why haven't F-15 been shot down? Why does the F-15 have a hell of a lot more than 4 kills?


As mentioned above, they were built to protect the carrier fleet, and interdict (sp?) Soviet bombers.
Neither of those scenarios occurred too often, thank God.

The F15 was built for air superiority in combat situations. There have been more than enough of those to go around, which explains the high number of engagements. Then, the aircraft and the pilots explain the high kill ratio.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:51:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 5:52:12 AM EDT by KBAD]
They both kick ass. But, a stripped down F-15E (without CFT and with 229 motors) would run circles around the Tomcat. I have many friends who flew both, so I'll ask them when I see them today. Also, don't believe all the crap you find on wikipedia and FAS.org. A lot of that info is old and just plain incorrect. I see a lot of people quoting sources like it's the gospel and some of it is just flat out wrong.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:02:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2A373:


9 more days until my sentence working POS fucking lawn darts is over.



and then
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:04:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ALLANJ:

Originally Posted By CAAAwarfighter:

Originally Posted By CFII:
F15. Superior weapons and avionics.



Does the Air force have better mods of the AIM-120, AIM-9 and M61 20mm than the Navy AIM-120,AIM-9 and M61 20mm carried by the retired Tomcat and the F-18's?



I don't think the F-14 ever got the amraam.



The F-14's primary weapon has been the AIM-54 Phoenix missile, capable of engaging a target at up to 200 km (120 statute miles). It was removed from service on 30 September 2004, replaced by the lower-range but much more accurate and maneuverable AMRAAM. The F-14 was the only aircraft to carry the AIM-54, which was designed as an integral part of the Tomcat weapons system. Although it could carry up to six of these large weapons, its heavy weight only enabled the F-14 to land on a carrier with two. Medium-range armament was provided by the AIM-7 Sparrow semi-active radar homing missile (also replaced by the AMRAAM). For short ranges, it carried AIM-9 Sidewinder infrared missiles and a single M61 Vulcan 20 mm cannon.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:11:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cnatra:

Originally Posted By 2A373:


9 more days until my sentence working POS fucking lawn darts is over.



and then




Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:12:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Every comparison is problematic, the Air Force is CONTINUING to update the F-15, even today, what are they up to F15J ???????????



The J model is the Japanese licence built version, based on the US C model. The F-15DJ is the Japanese version of the US F-15D two seat model. The latest version f the F-15 in the US is the E model which is also a two-seater, to share the pilot workload when loaded for strike missions.

F-15E piccy

There has been a proposal for an F model which would have been a single seat version of the E model. Saudi Arabia expressed an interest in buying some F's, but none were built.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:14:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:19:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
I've always been under the impression that the F15 was the worlds premier fighter aircraft but could the F14 hold it's own against it?



Operative word here is 'was'…

ANdy



Yep, superceded by the Buccy, right?
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:20:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GarethB:

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Every comparison is problematic, the Air Force is CONTINUING to update the F-15, even today, what are they up to F15J ???????????



The J model is the Japanese licence built version, based on the US C model. The F-15DJ is the Japanese version of the US F-15D two seat model. The latest version f the F-15 in the US is the E model which is also a two-seater, to share the pilot workload when loaded for strike missions.

F-15E piccy

There has been a proposal for an F model which would have been a single seat version of the E model. Saudi Arabia expressed an interest in buying some F's, but none were built.



I thought there was an F15J spec, that is supposed to be current F-15's upgraded, new engines and avionics, thyat will do 95% of what the F-22 will, including supercuise IIRC, but at a fraction of the cost.

Of course it retains the current F-15 stealth properties.
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